London Underground Zone 1 --> Cambridge can no longer be booked

[binary0110]

I wonder if anyone can help with this? I used to be able to book an off-peak day return from London Underground Zone 1 to Cambridge (travelling on Great Northern from King's Cross) with a Network Railcard for £25.15 which represents a slight saving from using Oyster PAYG/contactless for the journey to travel to King's Cross. Although I couldn't directly enter London Underground Zone 1 I could buy this ticket by setting the departure station to London Victoria. Now when I search for this ticket I end up with this:



Is it no longer possible to book Zone 1 --> Cambridge tickets on Great Northern via King's Cross?

 

[OscarH]

The TOCs unfortunately decided to remove the much more reliable (and much less anomaly causing) "add on" method of selling these Zone(s) X tickets. Instead they're now only available when explicitly specified by the TOC (and they need to do that for every station cluster and ticket code etc)

 

[binary0110]

Ah that's a shame, although I suppose it's only a minor increase (£1.40).

 

[rocrat]

I wonder if anyone can help with this? I used to be able to book an off-peak day return from London Underground Zone 1 to Cambridge (travelling on Great Northern from King's Cross) with a Network Railcard for £25.15 which represents a slight saving from using Oyster PAYG/contactless for the journey to travel to King's Cross. Although I couldn't directly enter London Underground Zone 1 I could buy this ticket by setting the departure station to London Victoria. Now when I search for this ticket I end up with this:

View attachment 173437

Is it no longer possible to book Zone 1 --> Cambridge tickets on Great Northern via King's Cross?

I had an argument with LNER today about a similar ticket.

I routed my tickets to Bond Street Elizabeth line and that seemed to work to generate a London Z1 ticket (and generated my desired itinerary too when I routed it "not via Farringdon!")

 

[plugwash]

where are you planning to start/finish your journey?

 

[yorkie]

I had an argument with LNER today about a similar ticket.

I routed my tickets to Bond Street Elizabeth line and that seemed to work to generate a London Z1 ticket (and generated my desired itinerary too when I routed it "not via Farringdon!")

You mean you used to be able to do this, and no longer can?

Each TOC now needs to manually define these add-ons.

So whenever anyone finds one to be unavailable, you can try writing to the relevant TOC and ask them to pass on the request to the relevant pricing/retail manager/team.

It's a very retrograde step, but is absolutely typical of the behaviour you can expect from Rail Delivery Group.

 

[OscarH]

You mean you used to be able to do this, and no longer can?

Each TOC now needs to manually define these add-ons.

So whenever anyone finds one to be unavailable, you can try writing to the relevant TOC and ask them to pass on the request to the relevant pricing/retail manager/team.

It's a very retrograde step, but is absolutely typical of the behaviour you can expect from Rail Delivery Group.

To be honest, I have a suspicion it was requested by a certain TOC who repeatedly wanted to try and enforce an ridiculous decision of theirs to charge passengers for more zones than they used, and this was actioned by RDG without an understanding that the defined fares are problematic and unintentionally massively undercut fares on another TOC (intentionally vague so it doesn't get looked at :P)

 

[rocrat]

You mean you used to be able to do this, and no longer can?

Each TOC now needs to manually define these add-ons.

So whenever anyone finds one to be unavailable, you can try writing to the relevant TOC and ask them to pass on the request to the relevant pricing/retail manager/team.

It's a very retrograde step, but is absolutely typical of the behaviour you can expect from Rail Delivery Group.

LNER refused to sell me a Thetford to London Zone 1 return, so I instead found the same by buying Thetford to Bond Street (Elizabeth line).

It was even more joyful trying to obtain perks credit for this, as they couldn't work out how the ticket was not TOC restricted Stevenage to London Terminals and were insistent it was a GTR only ticket...

 

[redreni]

Well, this hasn't lightened my mood at all!

 

[Adam Williams]

It's a very retrograde step, but is absolutely typical of the behaviour you can expect from Rail Delivery Group.

To be honest, I have a suspicion it was requested by a certain TOC who repeatedly wanted to try and enforce an ridiculous decision of theirs to charge passengers for more zones than they used, and this was actioned by RDG without an understanding that the defined fares are problematic and unintentionally massively undercut fares on another TOC (intentionally vague so it doesn't get looked at :P)

I think the most ridiculous part of how this was handled was the page being silently deleted from the iKB without any notice - presumably on the TOC-who-shall-not-be-named's instruction - followed by what was essentially a "Please justify and evidence how you have calculated this fare and issued this ticket!" type enquiry to the retailer, with the clear implication being that there had been mis-issuance - as if the zonal add-ons had simply never existed in the first place. However, the page detailing exactly what FastJP had implemented had been perfectly preserved w/ archive.org's Wayback Machine and Raileasy/TrainSplit had been issuing these for years.

They should've been specced up properly from the start really, with the removal subject to a bulletin being sent round plus the usual consultations/comment period that happens whenever a spec is updated.

 

[greaterangrier]

Is this online only? Could I go to a ticket office and they do this?

 

[OscarH]

Is this online only? Could I go to a ticket office and they do this?

This should apply to all retail channels

 

[CyrusWuff]

I believe the state of play can be summarised as follows:

• Greater Anglia (West Anglia routes) and London Overground from Theobalds Grove/Waltham Cross Northwards: Tickets are issued to/from Zone U123 rather than Zone U1, as you can interchange with the Victoria Line at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters.
  
  Within Zones 1-6 tickets are issued for all the zones passed through, in line with the normal Train-Tube rules.
• c2c, Greater Anglia (Great Eastern routes), GTR (Great Northern and Thameslink routes): Tickets are issued to/from Zone U12 as interchange is available at various Zone 2 stations.
• GTR (Southern routes): Tickets are issued to/from all the zones passed through, so changing in Zone 1 would be issued as Zone U1256, in Zone 2 (not travelling through Zone 1) as Zone U2356, etc.

Other TOCs offer tickets to/from Zone U1 as they generally don't have an interchange point in one of the other zones.

Hopefully some of these discrepancies will be tidied up as contactless expands further out, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[OscarH]

I believe the state of play can be summarised as follows:

• Greater Anglia (West Anglia routes) and London Overground from Theobalds Grove/Waltham Cross Northwards: Tickets are issued to/from Zone U123 rather than Zone U1, as you can interchange with the Victoria Line at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters.
  
  Within Zones 1-6 tickets are issued for all the zones passed through, in line with the normal Train-Tube rules.
• c2c, Greater Anglia (Great Eastern routes), GTR (Great Northern and Thameslink routes): Tickets are issued to/from Zone U12 as interchange is available at various Zone 2 stations.
• GTR (Southern routes): Tickets are issued to/from all the zones passed through, so changing in Zone 1 would be issued as Zone U1256, in Zone 2 (not travelling through Zone 1) as Zone U2356, etc.

Other TOCs offer tickets to/from Zone U1 as they generally don't have an interchange point in one of the other zones.

Hopefully some of these discrepancies will be tidied up as contactless expands further out, but I'm not holding my breath.

These rules are just a mess, there's no reason to charge for zones not used.

I also don't think the fares are defined following these rules consistently

 

[yorkie]

These rules are just a mess, there's no reason to charge for zones not used.

I also don't think the fares are defined following these rules consistently

If anything it would be easier not to define anything and just reintroduce the rules for the add-ons.

The only reason they are abolishing it is due to a lack of understanding on the part of some people about how these add-ons work!

They really should be accountable to someone; such decisions shouldn't be taken with impunity by a group such as RDG who work against passengers interests, and purely represent the interests of (often misguided) train companies.

 

[OscarH]

If anything it would be easier not to define anything and just reintroduce the rules for the add-ons.

Yup and it would be a lot less problematic routeing wise too

 

[redreni]

An attack on integrated ticketing? The Rail Delivery Group? Surely there's been some mistake?

If anything it would be easier not to define anything and just reintroduce the rules for the add-ons.

Here, here!

The stuff about "well, there are multiple possible interchange points" seems to me to be a complete red herring. If the U-zone destination includes the zone where an interchange is and any other zones passed through subsequently, the passenger can use that interchange. If it doesn't, they must choose an interchange that is in the zones covered by their ticket. It's really not especially complicated.

If the TOCs take the view that it should be left to them to price any U-zone tickets that passengers require, I shall certainly embark on a campaign of asking them to do so. It would be helpful if you could let me know what the add-on fares were immediately before retailers' ability to sell them was withdrawn? That way I can check if any fares the TOCs do deign to price are more expensive than they should be, and also if the U-zone fare I'm asking them about would (if priced at the add-on rate) have been cheaper with my Network Railcard than PAYG, or than splitting at the interchange point from a ticket to PAYG (or vice versa).

 

[binary0110]

Thanks for all your replies. I'll be honest, I don't fully understand but it is clear there are a lot of very expert people here!

On further investigation, it appears to still be possible to purchase London Underground to Zone 1 to Cambridge as an off peak return to travel on Great Northern, but the off peak day return seems to have been withdrawn. Some of the replies advise contacting the TOC to request this it be reinstated. Does anyone know what the contact details would be for Great Northern to request this?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Thanks for all your replies. I'll be honest, I don't fully understand but it is clear there are a lot of very expert people here!

On further investigation, it appears to still be possible to purchase London Underground to Zone 1 to Cambridge as an off peak return to travel on Great Northern, but the off peak day return seems to have been withdrawn. Some of the replies advise contacting the TOC to request this it be reinstated. Does anyone know what the contact details would be for Great Northern to request this?

The issue is that Zone 1 - Cambridge hasn't been explicitly priced going back to at least First Capital Connect days. For Zones 1-2 in Standard Class, only an Anytime Day Single, Anytime Day Return and Off-Peak Return are priced.

This should change when/if contactless is extended out to Cambridge, but that's not going to be until some time in 2026 at the earliest.

You could try getting in touch with GTR Customer Services and asking them to speak to the Pricing Team on your behalf about it though.

 

[thedbdiboy]

You mean you used to be able to do this, and no longer can?

Each TOC now needs to manually define these add-ons.

So whenever anyone finds one to be unavailable, you can try writing to the relevant TOC and ask them to pass on the request to the relevant pricing/retail manager/team.

It's a very retrograde step, but is absolutely typical of the behaviour you can expect from Rail Delivery Group.

If anything it would be easier not to define anything and just reintroduce the rules for the add-ons.

The only reason they are abolishing it is due to a lack of understanding on the part of some people about how these add-ons work!

They really should be accountable to someone; such decisions shouldn't be taken with impunity by a group such as RDG who work against passengers interests, and purely represent the interests of (often misguided) train companies.

I know it doesn't suit your narrative but 'the RDG' has no contractual or legal right to decide on how TOC set fares are calculated. It did not remove the automatic rule because it 'decided' to; it was removed because is was resulting in fares at odds with what the TOCs wanted to charge.

A fundamental problem with fares in the past couple of decades has indeed been that there is no-one in overall charge, that is a result of the dysfunctional approach to handing fares setting over to multiple TOCs with an overarching requirement to produce a national fares structure but no effective mechanism to manage it; but that still doesn't (and didn't) allow ATOC/RDG to act outside the the scheme rules and in the order of things it is subservient to the TOCs.

The (re)construction of an overall body to operate and manage the network in GBR will address this but it's going to take some time to put it all together in a fully functional form. Then there'll just be one body to complain about rather than lots of them.

 

[redreni]

I know it doesn't suit your narrative but 'the RDG' has no contractual or legal right to decide on how TOC set fares are calculated. It did not remove the automatic rule because it 'decided' to; it was removed because is was resulting in fares at odds with what the TOCs wanted to charge.

A fundamental problem with fares in the past couple of decades has indeed been that there is no-one in overall charge, that is a result of the dysfunctional approach to handing fares setting over to multiple TOCs with an overarching requirement to produce a national fares structure but no effective mechanism to manage it; but that still doesn't (and didn't) allow ATOC/RDG to act outside the the scheme rules and in the order of things it is subservient to the TOCs.

The (re)construction of an overall body to operate and manage the network in GBR will address this but it's going to take some time to put it all together in a fully functional form. Then there'll just be one body to complain about rather than lots of them.

By whom?

 

[Haywain]

By whom?

A collective decision of the TOCs.

 

[yorkie]

I know it doesn't suit your narrative but 'the RDG' has no contractual or legal right to decide on how TOC set fares are calculated. It did not remove the automatic rule because it 'decided' to; it was removed because is was resulting in fares at odds with what the TOCs wanted to charge.

In other words, in selected instances (seemingly of RDGs choosing) any TOC can just decide they want to charge more than the going rate, and RDG capitulate.

Just like when Virgin Trains decided they didn't want to allow Sheffield to London to be valid via Tamworth; within 24 hours it was no longer possible to book tickets priced by other operators, as RDG simply did as Virgin told them to do, despite in other instances denying the power to do anything.

A fundamental problem with fares in the past couple of decades has indeed been that there is no-one in overall charge, that is a result of the dysfunctional approach to handing fares setting over to multiple TOCs with an overarching requirement to produce a national fares structure but no effective mechanism to manage it; but that still doesn't (and didn't) allow ATOC/RDG to act outside the the scheme rules and in the order of things it is subservient to the TOCs.

... to the TOCs who shout the loudest and demand that they be allowed to circumvent the system and charge more, you mean.

In any case, the narrative from those who defend RDG often seems to change from "nothing can be done" to suddenly justifying unilateral decisions where RDG capitulate based on one TOCs demands. The result is nearly always against passenger interests. Funny that, isn't it?

The (re)construction of an overall body to operate and manage the network in GBR will address this but it's going to take some time to put it all together in a fully functional form. Then there'll just be one body to complain about rather than lots of them.

Unfortunately, unless that body is truly accountable to passengers, and truly has passengers interests as their priority, it risks being even worse than what we have now!

I really don't see how the TOC who complained about the long-standing rule regarding add-on fares had the power to not only get RDG to remove it, but get RDG to immediately delete the relevant page. Someone at RDG doesn't have any form of backbone whatsoever.

I'm not interested in hearing excuses for the behaviour of RDG / TOCs and anyone else in cahoots with those who seek to act against passengers.

 

[redreni]

A collective decision of the TOCs.

Ah, okay.

A couple of years ago I had a TOC refuse, on a day when there was considerable disruption, to accept an otherwise valid ticket solely on the basis that it was TOC-restricted to another TOC, even though both TOCs were owned by the same parent company. But it's nice to know the TOCs can work together towards the common goal of inconveniencing or overcharging their customers.

 

[thedbdiboy]

In other words, in selected instances (seemingly of RDGs choosing) any TOC can just decide they want to charge more than the going rate, and RDG capitulate.

Just like when Virgin Trains decided they didn't want to allow Sheffield to London to be valid via Tamworth; within 24 hours it was no longer possible to book tickets priced by other operators, as RDG simply did as Virgin told them to do, despite in other instances denying the power to do anything.

... to the TOCs who shout the loudest and demand that they be allowed to circumvent the system and charge more, you mean.

In any case, the narrative from those who defend RDG often seems to change from "nothing can be done" to suddenly justifying unilateral decisions where RDG capitulate based on one TOCs demands. The result is nearly always against passenger interests. Funny that, isn't it?

Unfortunately, unless that body is truly accountable to passengers, and truly has passengers interests as their priority, it risks being even worse than what we have now!

I really don't see how the TOC who complained about the long-standing rule regarding add-on fares had the power to not only get RDG to remove it, but get RDG to immediately delete the relevant page. Someone at RDG doesn't have any form of backbone whatsoever.

I'm not interested in hearing excuses for the behaviour of RDG / TOCs and anyone else in cahoots with those who seek to act against passengers.

I didn't say it was right, but I am stating 'facts'. Neither ATOC not RDG are or were set up as passenger bodies, they are functional mechanisms within the industry operational structure. It's like buying an apple and then accusing it of making excuses because it's not a banana.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

By whom?

At the request of the TOCs

 

[Haywain]

But it's nice to know the TOCs can work together

No so much working together as carrying out the wish of a majority (which may not be an actual majority as some may be completely indifferent on certain matters).

 

[Kieran_MF135]

Also notice that I can no longer buy gravesend to London underground zone 1-4 off peak day return ticket anymore it seems it keeps giving you welling

So my guess is they removed it so that what once was possible now isn't


So it appears they have done it to quite a few others

 

[CyrusWuff]

Also notice that I can no longer buy gravesend to London underground zone 1-4 off peak day return ticket anymore it seems it keeps giving you welling

So my guess is they removed it so that what once was possible now isn't

Checking historic fares data, Southeastern have only explicitly priced Anytime Day Singles between Gravesend and Zones 1-4 for at least ten years.

At a guess, their logic may be that a Day Return plus the Zones 1-4 add-on would be more expensive than a Day Travelcard.

 

[Kieran_MF135]

Checking historic fares data, Southeastern have only explicitly priced Anytime Day Singles between Gravesend and Zones 1-4 for at least ten years.

At a guess, their logic may be that a Day Return plus the Zones 1-4 add-on would be more expensive than a Day Travelcard.

ah alwyes used to use it all the time not sure as £11.90 was cheap it used to be cheaper into fare increses

 

[Starmill]

it was removed because is was resulting in fares at odds with what the TOCs wanted to charge.

Perhaps you can explain what this means a little bit more? For those of us who clearly don't have access to the in-joke going on here

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2025 ==

I didn't say it was right, but I am stating 'facts'.

Perhaps you could share the fact of why precisely the old rules were a problem in that case?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2025 ==

No so much working together as carrying out the wish of a majority (which may not be an actual majority as some may be completely indifferent on certain matters).

There's an allegation above that they only did it because they'd intercepted a ticket in circulation and wished to punish a third party retailer for their (correct) sale of a ticket, just because they were a third party retailer.

Now obviously I can't comment either way as to the veracity of the allegation because all I have to go on is what's been written on this forum. Perhaps it's inaccurate and there is a justification in commercial terms - if that's so then please I would be interested to hear it. However, that certainly doesn't sound like they would have told the truth to their fellow operators to me, because if they did, one of them would have objected...