Etickets - what is the benefit?

[Lockwood]

This is possibly my most contentious question here.

Last week, I booked some train tickets for work and thought "I'll try etickets."

So, I have two A4 PDFs on my laptop which I cannot print, due to the IT policy and network restrictions.

I can (probably) email them to my personal email and download them on the phone and bring them up in the PDF viewer there.


So, this is not exactly an insurmountable problem.
But it does feel like more faff than getting to the station a couple of minutes earlier, or popping in this evening on my way to the supermarket, and getting a ticket printed from the machine.


(I'm going to assume that taking a photo of the Aztec code on the laptop screen with my phone is probably going to be an invitation for questions and an investigation into every ticket that has been purchased using our travel portal?)


So, as a genuine question, what is the direct advantage to me as a passenger of using etickets over orange card tickets? (ie I'm ignoring the cost as part of the ticket for paying for someone to refill the machines etc)

 

[tram21]

So, as a genuine question, what is the direct advantage to me as a passenger of using etickets over orange card tickets?

You're much less likely to lose your phone than an e-ticket. They can all be together in one place on an app, along with personalised journey updates and information. Personally I find it easier to scan a ticket than insert it into a barrier, but I know this varies from person-to-person and many have opposing views.

There's just a few, but there are pros and cons to each. With everything being digital nowadays I like having everything together in one place on your phone, but I do also use paper tickets occasionally..

 

[alistairlees]

This is possibly my most contentious question here.

Last week, I booked some train tickets for work and thought "I'll try etickets."

So, I have two A4 PDFs on my laptop which I cannot print, due to the IT policy and network restrictions.

I can (probably) email them to my personal email and download them on the phone and bring them up in the PDF viewer there.


So, this is not exactly an insurmountable problem.
But it does feel like more faff than getting to the station a couple of minutes earlier, or popping in this evening on my way to the supermarket, and getting a ticket printed from the machine.


(I'm going to assume that taking a photo of the Aztec code on the laptop screen with my phone is probably going to be an invitation for questions and an investigation into every ticket that has been purchased using our travel portal?)


So, as a genuine question, what is the direct advantage to me as a passenger of using etickets over orange card tickets? (ie I'm ignoring the cost as part of the ticket for paying for someone to refill the machines etc)

Did you only receive PDFs? Did you not receive a pkpass (for Apple Wallet) and / or a Google Pass (for Google Wallet)?

 

[Buzby]

I use a app called Pass4Wallet no need to print anything, and your phone holds your ticket in your Wallet - I’ve used this app for over 4 years with great success.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The advantage for me of e-tickets is that I can purchase them on my phone while walking to the station, and then show them on it too. This means I now no longer need to allow an arbitrary amount of extra time for station faff, I can instead time my walk perfectly to arrive just before the train does (journeys on foot are typically consistent to the second for most people).

That's a big time saving with basically no downside as far as I'm concerned.

Bad corporate IT policies notwithstanding, of course. (I can get my work email on my phone).

 

[Lockwood]

Did you only receive PDFs? Did you not receive a pkpass (for Apple Wallet) and / or a Google Pass (for Google Wallet)?

3 PDFs. One with the itenary, one for the outward journey, one for the inbound journey.
And an ICS file, so I can add the journey to my calendar.

That's it.

You're much less likely to lose your phone than an e-ticket. They can all be together in one place on an app, along with personalised journey updates and information. Personally I find it easier to scan a ticket than insert it into a barrier, but I know this varies from person-to-person and many have opposing views.

How do I get journey updates from a PDF? It feels I'm trading a mag stripe for an Aztec code.

I don't have to worry about barriers going to the office - open platform at start and end, there are barriers where I change. Funnily enough, the journeys where I do encounter barriers are not e-ticket suitable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't have to worry about barriers going to the office - open platform at start and end, there are barriers where I change. Funnily enough, the journeys where I do encounter barriers are not e-ticket suitable.

Journey updates will be sent to you by e-mail if there are any. Again, notwithstanding archaic corporate security policies that might mean you're unable to see those updates when travelling (I can because my company doesn't have silly policies like that).

Aside from Merseyrail which gatelines have no e-ticket scanners? I've not seen one for a very long time.

 

[alistairlees]

3 PDFs. One with the itenary, one for the outward journey, one for the inbound journey.
And an ICS file, so I can add the journey to my calendar.

That's it.

We've discovered the source of the problem. You are buying from a rubbish website. Which one is it?

When the eTicket spec was created, it was axiomatic that eTickets would be delivered in multiple formats, for the convenience of the user. Initially the two formats were:
- PDF (which eventually split into two versions - "display friendly" and "print friendly"
- pkpass (for Apple Wallet)

Google Pass was added later.

You really should be getting the pkpass and / or the Google Pass, in addition to the PDF. You do not need an app for this - they can just be attached to (or linked from) your email.

This was in the spec in 2016.

 

[Lockwood]

The advantage for me of e-tickets is that I can purchase them on my phone while walking to the station, and then show them on it too. This means I now no longer need to allow an arbitrary amount of extra time for station faff, I can instead time my walk perfectly to arrive just before the train does (journeys on foot are typically consistent to the second for most people).

That's a big time saving with basically no downside as far as I'm concerned.

Bad corporate IT policies notwithstanding, of course. (I can get my work email on my phone).

I can get work email on my phone, but their 365 fights with another 365, and it requires me to pretty much set my personal device up as a corporate one.

I did it for a week of on call, once that was over, I took their stuff off again to remove the wheel clamp they had on my device.


Given the nature of our customers, I understand why we have fairly tight access rules.


It's painful enough using the travel portal on a big screen with a keyboard and mouse. I'd dread to think what it would be like doing it in a phone. Agiito is ok on a phone, though trawling through a list of budget codes on the phone isn't fun. But we changed system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

Journey updates will be sent to you by e-mail if there are any. Again, notwithstanding archaic corporate security policies that might mean you're unable to see those updates when travelling (I can because my company doesn't have silly policies like that).

Aside from Merseyrail which gatelines have no e-ticket scanners? I've not seen one for a very long time.

London Underground

We've discovered the source of the problem. You are buying from a rubbish website. Which one is it?

Clarity Go. I don't have a choice in that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can get work email on my phone, but their 365 fights with another 365, and it requires me to pretty much set my personal device up as a corporate one.

I wouldn't agree to do that, but they would give me a device if I asked, and they are happy to have the sandboxed Outlook app anyway.

It's painful enough using the travel portal on a big screen with a keyboard and mouse. I'd dread to think what it would be like doing it in a phone. Agiito is ok on a phone, though trawling through a list of budget codes on the phone isn't fun. But we changed system.

Agiiito (3 Is I think) isn't good anywhere. It is the biggest pile of junk I have ever seen as far as sales sites go - the user interface is utterly terrible. I hope it's cheap - I can think of no other reason to prefer it over one of the other corporate travel tools.

 

[TheSmiths82]

The great thing about e-tickets if you can print more than one, or have more than one copy of your phone.

When I went to France/Spain in the summer, I must have caught around 20 trains, all of them e-tickets. All I had to do find the ticket on my phone and scan the barcode, much easier than trying to keep single paper tickets safe.

Despite being into technology I can sometimes be a little slow to adapt, so while I have been using e-tickets for at least 15 years, I always preferred to print it. Now I still print a copy in case my phone fails (very unlikely but possible) but I only use them as a backup.

I can't imagine using an old-fashioned ticket now, especially the new paper roll ones, they are a far too easy to lose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Underground

Yes, true. Anything involving those for now has to be fulfilled to paper. And very annoying it is too.

 

[tram21]

London Underground

Any ticket involving TfL services need to be collected as a paper ticket anyway though.

 

[Jan Mayen]

The other day, I got on a train at Betchworth (unstaffed, no ticket machine) and waited for the Guard to come through. Approaching Gatwick, I knocked on the door of the rear cab and asked to be sold a ticket. Sort it out at Gatwick, I was told.
I tried buying online as we arrived, but got distracted, started again and ended up with two! I think I won't be using e-tickets again in a hurry

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other day, I got on a train at Betchworth (unstaffed, no ticket machine) and waited for the Guard to come through. Approaching Gatwick, I knocked on the door of the rear cab and asked to be sold a ticket. Sort it out at Gatwick, I was told.
I tried buying online as we arrived, but got distracted, started again and ended up with two! I think I won't be using e-tickets again in a hurry

If you intended on using an e-ticket, why didn't you purchase it before you boarded the train?

Never, ever buy an e-ticket on board. You will very likely get in trouble. You are better off buying nothing in that situation where boarding is permitted without a ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The other day, I got on a train at Betchworth (unstaffed, no ticket machine) and waited for the Guard to come through. Approaching Gatwick, I knocked on the door of the rear cab and asked to be sold a ticket. Sort it out at Gatwick, I was told.
I tried buying online as we arrived, but got distracted, started again and ended up with two! I think I won't be using e-tickets again in a hurry

How is that anything to do with eTickets?

 

[Jan Mayen]

If you intended on using an e-ticket, why didn't you purchase it before you boarded the train?

Never, ever buy an e-ticket on board. You will very likely get in trouble. You are better off buying nothing in that situation where boarding is permitted without a ticket.

I didn't intend to use an e-ticket. I had assumed I'd buy a ticket from the guard. And I'd rather not have got to the ticket barrier without any ticket. I made a mistake buying two tickets. One has been refunded, so lost £5 refund admin fee.
The lesson here is if the guard (on a train where the station has NO ticket buying facilities) doesn't bother trying to sell a ticket, I won't bother buying one.
I wonder what would have happened if RPIs had been at the barrier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

How is that anything to do with eTickets?

Because if I'd bought the ticket from the guard, or a machine this mistake would be less likely to have happened.

 

[tram21]

I didn't intend to use an e-ticket. I had assumed I'd buy a ticket from the guard. And I'd rather not have got to the ticket barrier without any ticket. I made a mistake buying two tickets. One has been refunded, so lost £5 refund admin fee.
The lesson here is if the guard (on a train where the station has NO ticket buying facilities) doesn't bother trying to sell a ticket, I won't bother buying one.
I wonder what would have happened if RPIs had been at the barrier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==


Because if I'd bought the ticket from the guard, or a machine this mistake would be less likely to have happened.

You would have had to explain where you've come from and that you tried to buy a ticket, but couldn't. It's highly unlikely they wouldn't have just sold you a ticket.

 

[alistairlees]

Clarity Go. I don't have a choice in that.

I was correct. Evolvi underneath. Clarity bought Evolvi (and Agiito) from Capita in summer 2023.

 

[Haywain]

The lesson here is if the guard (on a train where the station has NO ticket buying facilities) doesn't bother trying to sell a ticket, I won't bother buying one.

And you'd sort it out at Gatwick, as he told you to.

One has been refunded, so lost £5 refund admin fee.

Almost all retailers allow a free refund within an hour or two of original purchase.

I still don't see what this has to do with eTickets.

 

[Jan Mayen]

You would have had to explain where you've come from and that you tried to buy a ticket, but couldn't. It's highly unlikely they wouldn't have just sold you a ticket.

Thank you for your advice.

 

[Lockwood]

I was correct. Evolvi underneath. Clarity bought Evolvi (and Agiito) from Capita in summer 2023.

That's interesting.

One place I work used ClickTrvavel and moved to Agiito.

Day job used to be part of Capita and got divested, we used... Something... Then switched to Agiito after our divestment, then once our sale completed, we used Clarity as the system of our new owner.

Interesting to see how interconnected it all is.


Seeing the Gatwick discussion... That's something else that seems to be an e-ticket issue and not a paper stock issue, there seems to be a higher proportion of "I had an e-ticket and got into trouble and my full purchase history is being reviewed" Vs "I had a paper ticket and got into trouble" threads. Does that match the ticket sale proportion? Don't know. Is it unfair sample bias? Probably.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder what would have happened if RPIs had been at the barrier.

On stating honestly that you had come from a station where there was no opportunity to purchase and that the guard had refused to sell you a ticket, you'd have been sold a ticket.

Whereas if you presented with an e-ticket purchased after the train's departure, things would potentially get a lot nastier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

Seeing the Gatwick discussion... That's something else that seems to be an e-ticket issue and not a paper stock issue, there seems to be a higher proportion of "I had an e-ticket and got into trouble and my full purchase history is being reviewed" Vs "I had a paper ticket and got into trouble" threads. Does that match the ticket sale proportion? Don't know. Is it unfair sample bias? Probably.

That of course is only a concern if you are committing ticket fraud. If they did investigate my purchase history they would find that I have never short fared nor done anything similar, and would get bored and go and investigate someone else.

If however you're concerned about that, perhaps switch to purchasing paper tickets exclusively for cash. If you purchase a paper ticket online they can still trawl your history as identifying information is printed on the ticket.

 

[Lockwood]

I'm not worried about it from a deliberate evasion point of view. It's more than it looks like a system that is a little easier for you to fall foul of without trying (probably a mix of battery life arguments and some ticket sale platforms not being particularly friendly)

 

[DDB]

This doesn't help with **** corporate systems but with my personal tickets I prefer to use a smartcard. I can still buy on my phone and load it from phone to card but it means if my phone runs out of battery I can still use my ticket to get home.
Also thr systems sometimes seem to allow London travel cards on it so I assume it would also work with cross London transfers but I haven't tried it myself.

 

[Haywain]

It's more than it looks like a system that is a little easier for you to fall foul of without trying (probably a mix of battery life arguments and some ticket sale platforms not being particularly friendly)

You fall foul of it by buying online and not buying the correct tickets, no matter whether they are fulfilled as paper or eTickets.

 

[Hadders]

That's interesting.

One place I work used ClickTrvavel and moved to Agiito.

Day job used to be part of Capita and got divested, we used... Something... Then switched to Agiito after our divestment, then once our sale completed, we used Clarity as the system of our new owner.

Interesting to see how interconnected it all is.


Seeing the Gatwick discussion... That's something else that seems to be an e-ticket issue and not a paper stock issue, there seems to be a higher proportion of "I had an e-ticket and got into trouble and my full purchase history is being reviewed" Vs "I had a paper ticket and got into trouble" threads. Does that match the ticket sale proportion? Don't know. Is it unfair sample bias? Probably.

Just to add, review of purchase history isn’t e-ticket dependent. It applies to any ticket purchased online, whether fulfilled to paper or e-ticket.

My employer uses Clarity (formerly Agiito) and I get e-tickets that I can put into my Apple Wallet (either on my personal or work phone)

 

[Jim the Jim]

I find ticket machines easier to use than ticket websites for non-advance tickets. I have also had phones randomly decided to stop working several times, but never lost a paper ticket.

 

[Belperpete]

Is it possible to buy an eticket without specifying an itinerary?

A problem that I regularly encounter is that I am unable to purchase tickets on-line because journey planners think that it isn't possible that day. Either because the TOC hasn't bothered to enter times of the RRBs, or because for Overground services you are just told to use local buses. In such cases, my only option seems to be to go to the ticket office where I am issued with a card ticket.

 

[sheff1]

A problem that I regularly encounter is that I am unable to purchase tickets on-line because journey planners think that it isn't possible that day.

That is indeed a problem but not limited to etickets, these journey planner retailers won't let you buy a TOD ticket either. If a want a card ticket, after being refused online, I can just go to the same TVM from which I would have collected the TOD and purchase the ticket there. If I wanted an eticket though - tough.