Cancellations of last train of night

[renegademaster]

I was on a railtour that called it quit at Crewe at about 11 because Euston was shut by the time was due to arrive. About 30 minutes later West Coast/Railway Touring Company had made some calls and 5 or so coaches where sitting outside Crewe to various destinations including Euston.

If a small company that runs only one every few weeks can manage finding coaches I'm sure the big TOCs can manage it

 

[800301]

From last spring until late last year the last trains on the North Downs Line were cancelled frequently (in both directions).

Perhaps the costs of taxis and reputational issues has led to great minds at GWR working out that it might actually be better to actually run their timetabled service, as performance has improved lately.

First Travel Solutions regularly send out requests for coaches on the route of a night, it’s a bit of a tricky one to cover as the distance of the route from Reading is over 50km so has to be a driver that has enough hours to do it on tachograph

 

[Horizon22]

I was on a railtour that called it quit at Crewe at about 11 because Euston was shut by the time was due to arrive. About 30 minutes later West Coast/Railway Touring Company had made some calls and 5 or so coaches where sitting outside Crewe to various destinations including Euston.

If a small company that runs only one every few weeks can manage finding coaches I'm sure the big TOCs can manage it

When was this? Because post-COVID, TOCs are finding it increasingly difficult to source replacement coaches at the drop of a hat, not for lack of trying.

Even for planned engineering works it’s been difficult and there’s some commentary about how they won’t / can’t pay the going rate to source the appropriate coaches / vehicles.

 

[renegademaster]

When was this? Because post-COVID, TOCs are finding it increasingly difficult to source replacement coaches at the drop of a hat, not for lack of trying.

Even for planned engineering works it’s been difficult and there’s some commentary about how they won’t / can’t pay the going rate to source the appropriate coaches / vehicles.

January 27th 2024

Another thing I've noticed the railtour operators.
Usually if the train is running very late into London they'll contact the mainline tocs and arrange ticket acceptance so we can get back quicker and not miss any last trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

Were the tour perhaps able to use non-accessible coaches because they aren't public transport and thus presumably avoid coming under PSVAR?

Aside from Friday and Saturday evenings, though, last trains are generally not busy, and so you'd just need a few taxis to cover, and again aside from Friday/Saturday evenings getting taxis in urban areas is hardly difficult - the problem with getting them is purely TOCs switching to specific contractors to save money. SWR seem to be more pragmatic on this and proactively allow Ubers etc to be reclaimed.

 

[Krokodil]

I've seen some very expensive ones done by staff, some excellent service. I've been taxi'd from Salisbury to Plumstead (London SE Zone 4). I know someone who got taxi'd from Bristol Temple Meads to Plymouth. I first hand saw staff at Exeter ST Davids arranging someone a taxi to Starcross (a local station a good few miles away) - even when the issue was caused by a different TOC than operates the station (someone I know at the station says they've been coming under pressure a bit over this recently from management). Large well staffed stations have never let me down - it's the help point at unstaffed stations that's caused the issues for me

I've been taxiied from Birmingham to Bristol a few times when connections have been missed.

 

[riceuten]

I have never failed to get a taxi fare back in these circumstances but it often takes a LOT of persistence! It should just be an immediate sign off.

1am on a Monday morning at Kings X - good luck getting a taxi driver to take you to Ely, and having enough cash to do so. Or finding a hotel room

 

[Bletchleyite]

1am on a Monday morning at Kings X - good luck getting a taxi driver to take you to Ely, and having enough cash to do so. Or finding a hotel room

Sunday nights are the quietest and cheapest time of the week for hotels - the tourists have gone home and the business travellers not arrived yet. I'd be astonished if you'd even need to go as far as Euston Travelodge to get one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

I have never failed to get a taxi fare back in these circumstances but it often takes a LOT of persistence! It should just be an immediate sign off.

This is something SWR do very well - they proactively offer to refund taxis if it's easier to sort yourself, which with Uber etc it often will be.

 

[riceuten]

Sunday nights are the quietest and cheapest time of the week for hotels - the tourists have gone home and the business travellers not arrived yet. I'd be astonished if you'd even need to go as far as Euston Travelodge to get one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

There are people who genuinely cannot front up the money for hotels or taxis to be "claimed back"

The problem is that there are no consequences for failure to provide a service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are people who genuinely cannot front up the money for hotels or taxis to be "claimed back"

Indeed, but that's not a reason not to offer that option to the vast majority of adults who can because they have in their pocket a credit card. That leaves the railway with only a few people to deal with, and is more convenient for them too.

My point, however, was just that it's easy to get a hotel in London on a Sunday night. It's the cheapest night as I explained (Thursday is the second cheapest, generally) and pretty much every hotel will have availability.

The problem is that there are no consequences for failure to provide a service.

I certainly agree with that. Oh for the days when one cancelled or missed Preston-Ormskirk (typically 1h10 gap) meant you could just stroll into the customer services office and ask for a taxi chit!

 

[Mike395]

The case of being stranded due to your last train being cancelled is, really, something that technology should make much easier from a logistics perspective (particularly where reservations are involved) - a site where, if you have a reservation created before the time the train was cancelled, you can enter a CTR (booking reference) and automatically be able to book taxis and/or hotels as appropriate with no upfront payment if you geolocated to at/near the station you're claiming to be at, would solve 90% of the issues.

(Of course there's the - rare nowadays - service without even counted place reservations, and those with walk-up tickets with reservations for a different train, people without/not confident in the technology etc but it would solve the stranding issue for a large majority of people, without the processing cost of 100s of hotel/taxi claims individually).

 

[DarloRich]

1am on a Monday morning at Kings X - good luck getting a taxi driver to take you to Ely, and having enough cash to do so.

if I didn't have the cash I wouldn't be getting a cab.............................

(OBVIOUSLY the train companies should be sorting all this out and not leaving passengers stranded. However, where I can, I would rather live on my own wits than wait for the TOC to sort me out.)

Or finding a hotel room

on a Sunday night? I bet I could get a Premier Inn somewhere in London - again, obviously, only if I had the cash to pay for it upfront.

 

[renegademaster]

Of course there's the - rare nowadays - service without even counted place reservations,

That's hardly something rare in the busiest part of the network, southeast commuter services

 

[43066]

This is a situation that may fill many people with dread. We know what's supposed to happen. We know what can happen in reality. We've probably all got experiences, good and bad. I've always found both GWR and SWR very helpful. I'd still be very confident if I got stuck at Exeter St David's,Salisbury, or Bristol Temple Meads.

But something happened last Sunday night that's shaken my confidence in GWR sorting things out if it's a smaller station. Last train of night 22.49 from Exeter St Thomas cancelled. No special stop order on the remaining non stopping local 30 mins later. No alternative transport. Help point just said walk to Exeter St David's. 20 minutes fast walk in cold and dark. I know the way. I'd not want any of my female friends to be in that situation. I made the last connection to Cranbrook so wasn't actually delayed at all. Just a walk part route.

I followed up with GWR and they were OK with what happened. I can take 2 trains before or after (that would be next day!) or not travel and claim refund. I know St David's will arrange alternative transport if you're really stuck. But walking part route seems OK to them.

Exeter St Thomas to St David's it's not the longest of walks but isn't pleasant in the dark. Yet if I was at Marsh Barton instead would they really have said walk too? That's probably 40 minutes walk to St David's and I'd have needed onward transport by time I got there too. Or Starcross or Exminster!

We know what's meant to happen. But just sharing a tale of caution from this experience to be aware of GWR late night cancellations at moment and to be aware things might not work out how they should. Personally I'd be loathe to take last train of night if there's no alternative way I can get to my destination by train or bus if its cancelled.

Presumably if you’d told them you were unable to walk they’d have organised something else - but potentially you’d have had a longer wait. Since you were willing to walk, it seems like a practical and convenient solution. There isn’t anything intrinsically unsafe about walking a fairly short distance through Exeter, even late at night. I haven't looked for stats, but I doubt it’s any riskier than using late night trains in the first place?

The problem is that there are no consequences for failure to provide a service.

What consequences can there really be? Generally taxis are arranged where last trains are cancelled in my experience, but clearly this is location specific and is inevitably going to be more difficult at smaller/unstaffed stations, especially if they’re in rural areas. It’s all very well saying “fine the TOCs” but in reality these days that just means fining the taxpayer - especially as many of the issues causing cancellations are actually down to the DfT not permitting incentives to be paid to staff etc.

Indeed, but that's not a reason not to offer that option to the vast majority of adults who can because they have in their pocket a credit card. That leaves the railway with only a few people to deal with, and is more convenient for them too.

Indeed. Much easier for most people to use an Uber and claim back. If you’re travelling more than walking distance from home by any means it’s sensible - and I would argue responsible - to have some ability to come up with funds to get yourself out of trouble - be that a credit card or an overdraft if you don’t have cash. The overwhelming majority of those who undertake train travel will have access to this, and I’m not sure I can see a good argument for taxpayers being expected to cover arrangements for those who cannot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Much easier for most people to use an Uber and claim back. If you’re travelling more than walking distance from home by any means it’s sensible - and I would argue responsible - to have some ability to come up with funds to get yourself out of trouble - be that a credit card or an overdraft if you don’t have cash. The overwhelming majority of those who undertake train travel will have access to this, and I’m not sure I can see a good argument for taxpayers being expected to cover arrangements for those who cannot.

This is a different argument. I absolutely think the railway should be expected to cover the cost of such arrangements, even if it has to be claimed back in retrospect, because they have failed to deliver the contracted service. And where it's due to something like staffing or a shortage of available units (rather than extreme weather where one could argue the contract to be frustrated) they have failed to deliver it with reasonable skill and care, too, so a case via the Small Claims Track would have them pay it anyway. Reasonable skill and care would be not to advertise a service you might not deliver (something Northern have finally realised in publicising a cut-back Sunday timetable).

 

[43066]

This is a different argument. I absolutely think the railway should be expected to cover the cost of such arrangements, even if it has to be claimed back in retrospect, because they have failed to deliver the contracted service. And where it's due to something like staffing or a shortage of available units (rather than extreme weather where one could argue the contract to be frustrated) they have failed to deliver it with reasonable skill and care, too, so a case via the Small Claims Track would have them pay it anyway. Reasonable skill and care would be not to advertise a service you might not deliver (something Northern have finally realised in publicising a cut-back Sunday timetable).

To be clear, I’m not saying they shouldn’t cover the cost at all, and I agree they’re responsible, but it strikes me as perfectly reasonable to discharge that responsibility by asking people to front the cost of taxi. hotel etc. themselves, and claiming back later. There’s nothing in law AIUI to prevent the operators from taking this approach.

I’m not convinced there’s a justification for a bespoke software system (which seemingly still wouldn’t cover all situations), for the tiny number of people who cannot cover the initial cost themselves.

 

[Class800]

Presumably if you’d told them you were unable to walk they’d have organised something else - but potentially you’d have had a longer wait. Since you were willing to walk, it seems like a practical and convenient solution. There isn’t anything intrinsically unsafe about walking a fairly short distance through Exeter, even late at night. I haven't looked for stats, but I doubt it’s any riskier than using late night trains in the first place?



What consequences can there really be? Generally taxis are arranged where last trains are cancelled in my experience, but clearly this is location specific and is inevitably going to be more difficult at smaller/unstaffed stations, especially if they’re in rural areas. It’s all very well saying “fine the TOCs” but in reality these days that just means fining the taxpayer - especially as many of the issues causing cancellations are actually down to the DfT not permitting incentives to be paid to staff etc.



Indeed. Much easier for most people to use an Uber and claim back. If you’re travelling more than walking distance from home by any means it’s sensible - and I would argue responsible - to have some ability to come up with funds to get yourself out of trouble - be that a credit card or an overdraft if you don’t have cash. The overwhelming majority of those who undertake train travel will have access to this, and I’m not sure I can see a good argument for taxpayers being expected to cover arrangements for those who cannot.

I think your reference to 'short distance' reflects that you're in London (as per your profile) - there was a decided lack of street lighting in many places and I had to divert a longer way to avoid an entirely unlit river walk. I didn't say it was fundamentally dangerous, just somewhat unusual. There was no info on Journey Check re what to do - usually it says local buses but not this time

 

[Andover]

I think what's partly being underestimated here is the legitimate fears and unfamiliarities of the average traveller. It might be responsible to have a way of paying out of pocket on you, but for many people, it's also responsible to worry if you'll ever see that money again.

Indeed, but that's not a reason not to offer that option to the vast majority of adults who can because they have in their pocket a credit card. That leaves the railway with only a few people to deal with, and is more convenient for them too.

Assuming it does not adopt an attitude that the rest are an irritant we don't know how to deal with. Otherwise agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think what's partly being underestimated here is the legitimate fears and unfamiliarities of the average traveller. It might be responsible to have a way of paying out of pocket on you, but for many people, it's also responsible to worry if you'll ever see that money again.

And that's why I think SWR's approach really is right here - they proactively state in writing (well, on X etc) when they get into a situation where taxis will be refunded. No other TOC appears to do that, and it really is the right approach because it provides that reassurance.

 

[tram21]

This is something SWR do very well - they proactively offer to refund taxis if it's easier to sort yourself, which with Uber etc it often will be.

EMR are also excellent at it, I can rely on them to refund any additional costs which come from disruption

 

[renegademaster]

Were the tour perhaps able to use non-accessible coaches because they aren't public transport and thus presumably avoid coming under PSVAR?

Mabye, I was too tired to pay attention if they where accessible at the time. It may be wise to waive the requirements if you can source a taxi for any accessibility passengers on board.

On the other hand , their can't be many normal coach firms with drivers sitting around standby at 11pm ready to drive down from Crewe to Euston, they must have used some contractor that runs the RRBs for service trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand , their can't be many normal coach firms with drivers sitting around standby at 11pm ready to drive down from Crewe to Euston, they must have used some contractor that runs the RRBs for service trains

Small coach firms will just call the drivers at home and make them an offer to do the work and they'll say yes, no or ask for more, and if it's yes they'll just turn the TV off, get in the car, drive straight to the yard and get the coach out. There's none of the strict negotiated requirements you have for doing stuff like that at TOCs when you're a small coach firm. As long as it's legal (most of the time), more or less anything goes.

 

[43066]

I think your reference to 'short distance' reflects that you're in London (as per your profile) - there was a decided lack of street lighting in many places and I had to divert a longer way to avoid an entirely unlit river walk. I didn't say it was fundamentally dangerous, just somewhat unusual. There was no info on Journey Check re what to do - usually it says local buses but not this time

I have been known to leave London occasionally .

The logical route appears to be across the river and along Bonhay Road, which from memory (and confirmed by street view) is pretty well lit throughout, and with pavements. As I say, no doubt if you’d said you were unable to elderly/disabled etc. they’d have made other arrangements, but doesn’t seem to me an unreasonable walk. Clearly if they asked you walk along a motorway that would be more worrying! Did you offer to walk, or did they initially suggest it, out of interest?

Small coach firms will just call the drivers at home and make them an offer to do the work and they'll say yes, no or ask for more, and if it's yes they'll just turn the TV off, get in the car, drive straight to the yard and get the coach out. There's none of the strict negotiated requirements you have for doing stuff like that at TOCs when you're a small coach firm. As long as it's legal (most of the time), more or less anything goes.

It has been stated on here many times that the amount TOCs are allowed to offer these days often isn’t sufficient to make RRB work viable. Clearly a rail tour operator isn’t going to be subject to the same restrictions.

 

[johntea]

I've always found the biggest issue is finding the 'right' person that can help out when you're stuck at a station! (Even at main stations such as Leeds)

Then they are only permitted to use certain taxi companies they have a contract with, in one case they then flat out refused to carry me as apparently LNER (or whoever the ECML operator was at the time) was rather delayed in their payments to the taxi company...so I had to fork out myself and write a very strong letter to get my taxi fare back and a bit of compensation on top...

Never been offered a hotel and I would perhaps prefer that when I'm stuck in Edinburgh trying to get to Leeds rather than 'catch the service to Newcastle then we'll shove you in a taxi to Leeds with 3 other strangers after an hour or so of waiting around in Newcastle because we won't bother to inform anyone at Newcastle of that plan in advance!'

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

Pre-pandemic I was frequently put in a taxi when the last GWR Banbury stopper was cancelled. Usually sharing it with one or two other King's Sutton passengers. The station staff just handed the driver some kind of payment slip that they could claim back. Most times they'd drop you off in the centre rather than make you walk back from the station (although this sometimes took some negotiation).

Post-pandemic, the only time I've been put in a taxi was when the last train from Rugby to Northampton was bustituted, but wasn't actually stopping at Long Buckby (it should have been). Luckily I had the foresight to ask a member of station staff where the bust to Long Buckby was going from, at which point he went ah... and said he'd sort something out.

I had an appalling journey back from Victoria to Pevensey & Westham on Southern that ended with me walking 3 miles at 2am. No staff seemed to care whatsoever or have the correct information. Certainly no offer of a taxi, only acceptance on the public bus.

 

[43066]

I've always found the biggest issue is finding the 'right' person that can help out when you're stuck at a station! (Even at main stations such as Leeds)

Of course this is part of the reason why the SWR approach is so sensible.

 

[nickswift99]

To be clear, I’m not saying they shouldn’t cover the cost at all, and I agree they’re responsible, but it strikes me as perfectly reasonable to discharge that responsibility by asking people to front the cost of taxi. hotel etc. themselves, and claiming back later. There’s nothing in law AIUI to prevent the operators from taking this approach.

I’m not convinced there’s a justification for a bespoke software system (which seemingly still wouldn’t cover all situations), for the tiny number of people who cannot cover the initial cost themselves.

There is. There’s an EU directive and associated SI in the UK that obliges the TOC to provide accommodation or onward transport. It doesn’t oblige them to pay but to provide it.

 

[43066]

There is. There’s an EU directive and associated SI in the UK that obliges the TOC to provide accommodation or onward transport. It doesn’t oblige them to pay but to provide it.

But under that legislation they’re still perfectly entitled to encourage people to make their own arrangements, rather than potentially having to wait much longer for the TOC to do so. That’s a sensible approach to take, and I have no idea why it’s so often criticised on here.

Most people will want to get home as quickly as possible and will be happy to claim back later. That’s going to be much better than chasing down staff and asking them to arrange taxis/hotels.

 

[Starmill]

I was on a railtour that called it quit at Crewe at about 11 because Euston was shut by the time was due to arrive. About 30 minutes later West Coast/Railway Touring Company had made some calls and 5 or so coaches where sitting outside Crewe to various destinations including Euston.

If a small company that runs only one every few weeks can manage finding coaches I'm sure the big TOCs can manage it

Unless very bad weather (red warnings etc) or widespread road closures (e.g. at request of the police) then you can pretty much always get urgent rail replacement bus availability. It'll cost you though. Late evenings, weekends, bank holidays etc all the more so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

But under that legislation they’re still perfectly entitled to encourage people to make their own arrangements, rather than potentially having to wait much longer for the TOC to do so. That’s a sensible approach to take, and I have no idea why it’s so often criticised on here.

Most people will want to get home as quickly as possible and will be happy to claim back later. That’s going to be much better than chasing down staff and asking them to arrange taxis/hotels.

As far as I can make out, a taxi fare from Exeter St Thomas (to either Exeter Central or to destination - whichever was best likely to get the customer home) wasn't offered by GWR in this instance? Perhaps OP can clarify, although obviously that's only in this one case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

Pre-pandemic I was frequently put in a taxi when the last GWR Banbury stopper was cancelled. Usually sharing it with one or two other King's Sutton passengers. The station staff just handed the driver some kind of payment slip that they could claim back. Most times they'd drop you off in the centre rather than make you walk back from the station (although this sometimes took some negotiation).

Post-pandemic, the only time I've been put in a taxi was when the last train from Rugby to Northampton was bustituted, but wasn't actually stopping at Long Buckby (it should have been). Luckily I had the foresight to ask a member of station staff where the bust to Long Buckby was going from, at which point he went ah... and said he'd sort something out.

I had an appalling journey back from Victoria to Pevensey & Westham on Southern that ended with me walking 3 miles at 2am. No staff seemed to care whatsoever or have the correct information. Certainly no offer of a taxi, only acceptance on the public bus.

Back in the day GWR and SWR used to offer taxi invoicing via booking offices. The station staff had a supply of forms which they could complete and hand to the customer or to the cabbie directly. The cabbie could then tender the form at any booking office to be paid out in cash. The form would either be carbon copied or have a detachable stub to allow paper invoicing to be traced.

This was a system which broadly worked well, although it was sometimes quite unpopular because it meant the ticket office had to order a whole load of cash in if there was enough disruption that they got cleared out! I think the form could also be mailed to accounts payable for electronic invoicing.

I have no idea if anything like this is still going. The cabbies seemed to prefer quick payments. Cash going out this way also obviously presents a small increase in the fraud risk.

 

[nickswift99]

But they’re also perfectly entitled to suggest people make their own arrangements, rather than potentially having to wait much longer for the TOC to do so. It’s a sensible approach to take, and I have no idea why it’s so often criticised on here.

Most people will want to get home as quickly as possible and will be happy to claim back later. That’s going to be much better than chasing down staff and asking them to arrange taxis/hotels.

What they’re not allowed to do is to abandon passengers. This happened to my wife and her friend who were stranded at Gloucester (having travelled from Cheltenham) and then been denied any help by the station staff.

Fortunately the taxis at the station take credit cards. Despite this and many emails/letters it was only when a court claim was imminent that GWR paid.

So now there are two potential customers who will not use GWR for a day out - and GWR had a bill for about £250.