TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Surely the 100 provides a link from Irlam and Cadishead to places like Eccles and Salford General Hospital?
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Bee Network Service/Route Discussion
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goldisgood
Member
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I guess my question is whether the 67 provides this link effectively enough (alongside being a much more direct route), and whether an alternative link through to Media City and a different part of the city centre might be a more effective use of resources and offer new journey opportunities? Especially keeping in mind that hopper fares could be used for passengers to Eccles and Salford who are unable to use the 67.
Statto
Established Member
I've been on the 100 a few times & that's has good loadings of passengers staying on when the bus is going through the Trafford Centre, not passengers just from Manchester City Centre either, passengers going further than Cadishead into Warrington too, splitting that route is not an option
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Fair point. Perhaps the use of hopper fares will be enough in itself via Trafford Centre, and provides those links without rerouting and disadvantaging those existing passengers as @Statto points out
py_megapixel
Established Member
Does anyone happen to know how it was decided which routes would use which stands at Stockport Interchange?
Particularly thinking of stand Q, which for those who don't know is in a separate building on the other side of the bus station, currently serves routes 199 and 313 - this makes very little sense as they are often both scheduled at the same time! Also the 313 enters the bus station at the western end and leaves at the eastern end, and the layout means that to serve stand Q it effectively has to drive a full extra lap of the bus station, which can be incredibly slow
Particularly thinking of stand Q, which for those who don't know is in a separate building on the other side of the bus station, currently serves routes 199 and 313 - this makes very little sense as they are often both scheduled at the same time! Also the 313 enters the bus station at the western end and leaves at the eastern end, and the layout means that to serve stand Q it effectively has to drive a full extra lap of the bus station, which can be incredibly slow
None of this is helping the 313 timetable. Added to the fact that double deckers have been replaced by single deckers. This morning a short Enviro200 was full and standing and displaying out of service as it ran into Stockport 45 minutes late!
py_megapixel
Established Member
To be fair, I don't remember the 313 ever being brilliant for punctuality. The last couple of weeks do seem to have been particularly bad, though. I'm curious as to what makes this route especially challenging to operate punctually - apart from the non stop section to the airport at the end, it seems to be a fairly mundane route that just winds around some suburbs of Stockport for a bit, no different to any of the others that head out in that direction.
The time taken to get through Stockport has been an issue ever since the new interchange opened. It makes no sense to me to run it from Stand Q. In the grand scheme of things it's minor, but as you say if the bus is late it really doesn't help it to wastes 5 minutes crawling around all the other stands (and also sitting at the traffic lights at the exit, which are really crying out for bus priority)
If they insist on the 313 serving stand Q for whatever reason, then they should reroute it to leave at the western end and get onto the A6 via Heaton Lane.
The closure of the A555 was a killer last week causing gridlock on the other local roads to get to the airport. The other issue seems to be that the route is now being run from Wythenshawe and not Stockport so when things go wrong it’s harder to get back on track. Those traffic lights at the end of the bus station do need resetting for sure.
The A555 still seems to have been a problem today with a number of buses diverting around it and suffering significant delays as a result.
Even when there are no major problems though the timetable has an obvious issue with almost no turnaround time at the Airport end, so it's effectively being operated as a 90 minute circular journey which has to use the A555 twice and visit the Airport twice. I don't know how reliable that is ever likely to be.
There are many problems with 313 to be honest not only is the allocated stand a problem in Stockport Interchange it's also there where it interworks with other services as during the day it interworks with 370/371 Stockport-Altrincham services which has it's own fair share of traffic problems, plus there's the problems at the Airport end of A555 especially at peak times which adds times to journeys.
Also why it was stipulated that Wythenshawe Depot had to be a single decker depot I don't know as Wythenshawe Depot has had deckers allocated in the past especially when Arriva used to operate quite a number of School Services in Trafford Area and theirs quite a few routes that Wythenshawe Depot operate that could handle deckers no problem.
Also why it was stipulated that Wythenshawe Depot had to be a single decker depot I don't know as Wythenshawe Depot has had deckers allocated in the past especially when Arriva used to operate quite a number of School Services in Trafford Area and theirs quite a few routes that Wythenshawe Depot operate that could handle deckers no problem.
py_megapixel
Established Member
Wythenshawe does have deckers, but they never seem to be used on the 313 for some reason
daodao
Established Member
The allocation at the Wythenshawe depot according to a Metroline (ComfortDelgro) leaflet is solely ADL E200 MMC buses, mostly long wheelbase, but with a few shorter wheelbase vehicles mainly for Altrincham local services 281-286. None of the routes now operated from the Wythenshawe depot require double-deck buses. Under franchising, any review of the routes/depots/vehicle types for routes 313/370/371, and service 11 which used to be associated with routes 370/371, is now the responsibility of TfGM, not the operator(s).
py_megapixel
Established Member
As of writing this, Bustimes.org is showing four of Metroline's Wright Streetdecks out on route 368.
daodao
Established Member
Route 368 is operated from the Sharston depot, which just has double-deck buses. The Sharston depot is also operated by Metroline, but is completely separate from the Wythenshawe depot, and is situated near Northenden.
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py_megapixel
Established Member
I see. Was it also operated from Sharston under Stagecoach?
I was under the impression Stagecoach had operated it from Stockport and it was then transferred to Wythenshawe, similarly to the 313.
daodao
Established Member
Before franchising was implemented, both routes 313 and 368 were operated by Stagecoach, who had acquired Greater Manchester Buses (South) Ltd, from from their Stockport depot. Historically, routes 313 and 368 are the descendants of routes 79 and 79A respectively, operated by the North Western Road Car Company (NWRCC) from their main depot (and headquarters) at Charles Street, Stockport. In 1972, SELNEC (which later became Greater Manchester Transport) acquired most NWRCC routes within Greater Manchester and renumbered these 2 routes in the 300 series along with most other Stockport-based routes. At deregulation in 1986 there were further changes and renumbering.
When franchising was implemented, both routes were transferred to Metroline, with the lower frequency 313 route moved to Wythenshawe depot to be operated by single deck buses, and the busier 368 route moved to Sharston depot to be operated by double deck buses.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I don't think it does anymore.
py_megapixel
Established Member
It did last summer. It never has during the winter months.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I may well be wrong, but I was under the impression that it wouldn't be coming back for 2025.
Out of interest how well used was X50 extension to RHS Bridgwater last year as this might have bearing on whether its brought back this year? The other thing is that if there are plans for it to run again this summer all of HE's drivers will have to be route learned on the extension as I don't think many of them will know the route as the extension has always been a Diamond thing.
Could be worth asking TfGM whether they've got any plans for a service to RHS Bridgwater this year although with 35 running past I'm guessing they might just leave it at that.
Could be worth asking TfGM whether they've got any plans for a service to RHS Bridgwater this year although with 35 running past I'm guessing they might just leave it at that.
daodao
Established Member
I once travelled to RHS Bridgwater by public transport, using Metrolink to the Trafford Centre and then Diamond bus routes 126/132. Unfortunately, the bus and Metrolink stations at the Trafford Centre are not adjacent (the walk between them takes at least 5 minutes), and the walk between the bus stops (which don't have shelters) on Leigh Road served by routes 126/132 (and route 35) and the RHS entrance takes 10-15 minutes. While one could use route 35 from central Manchester, the public transport access to RHS Bridgwater is sub-optimal, so an express direct bus service from central Manchester via the Trafford Centre to the RHS entrance during opening hours would be desirable.
PS - By deduction, I assume HE means Hyde Road depot, but it would be helpful to provide the expansion for unfamiliar abbreviations.
One thing I’ve noticed is that Stagecoach Hyde Road buses seemed to be always returning to the depot throughout the day, presumably because they didn’t do remote driver changeovers, they did them all at the depot?
Metroline seem to have carried on this practice
I notice they now seem to be doing this at Wythenshawe. I was in Altrincham yesterday and the new little ‘DEM class’ Enviro 200MMC that are used on locals kept coming and going out of service so it was hard to work out what interworks with what.
Metroline seem to have carried on this practice
I notice they now seem to be doing this at Wythenshawe. I was in Altrincham yesterday and the new little ‘DEM class’ Enviro 200MMC that are used on locals kept coming and going out of service so it was hard to work out what interworks with what.
mayneway
Member
This is for meal breaks. Buses will come in changeover and go out so drivers can have meal breaks at the depot.
It seems a wasteful way of doing it, when they could change over in the city centre and then travel on either a staff bus or as a passenger on a service that runs on Hyde Road
But then if Stagecoach as a commercial business didn’t see an issue then I’m sure Metroline in a franchised environment won’t either.
And in the case of Wythenshawe, you’d expect either a staff bus or a crew van rather than running buses constantly back and forth
Hyde Road depot is, in good traffic, ten minutes from Piccadilly Gardens. Given that it's quite possible that the alternatives are actually at least the same amount of hassle, if not more. Staff buses need to be staffed. Using normal passenger services relies on them not being delayed. And so on.
Cesarcollie
Member
- Joined
- 5 Jun 2016
- Messages
- 822
Depends if the practice increases PVR. If for example it’s just off peak, it may make sense. But if it needs more buses, normally a car or van would make much better economic sense. But I don’t know the local circumstance.
markymark2000
On Moderation
You'd have no chance doing all of Hyde Roads driver swaps in the city. Any city where driver swaps are in the city/town, it tends to lead to the driving coming off dumping the bus and then wandering off for their break and then the relieving driving not knowing where the bus is parked or trekking half way across the town just to find the bus (as happens in Burton on Trent with Diamond). Manchester City Centre already has a lack of layover space for buses, having buses sitting around the city centre to wait for relieving drivers could make the city just a dumping ground of yellow buses.
Any PVR savings from not having buses run dead to Hyde Road for breaks, would be negated by the fact you would need a regular staff shuttle bus, or you would be relying upon the normal Hyde Road service buses running on time and then drivers walking around the city to find their bus.
Finally, this way of working (given the depot location) means that if each driver is bringing a fresh bus from the depot, it can improve reliability as the driver going out can start on time irrespective of how late the inbound bus is running (of course depending on the number of other buses available).
That said, it was the case under Stagecoach that routes which go past the depot, have driver swaps at the depot, not sure if Metroline have continued this bit though.
mayneway
Member
You’re spot on.
There’s actually bylaws on the amount of layover time buses can have in the city centre - these were created after the UK North/Stagecoach Bus wars 20 years ago.
There’s a lot better control if changeovers and reliefs happen at the depot and not on the road, it’s also more cost effective.
Across the city centre: marked Bus Stops have a time limit of 5mins - ie capacity of 12 buses an hour at terminal points to prevent competing companies hogging the stop
In some cases there are two or three marked bays which increases the capacity of that stop.
Early running buses are required to move off and "go round the block" to come back to pickup on time
Some of the stands on Oldham Street and those on Piccadilly (76 216 230 231) had buses going up Lever Street, left onto Gt Ancoats St, back down Oldham St and were then late departing due to traffic conditions! Hence a cut through re-established at Stevensons Sq which enabled a shorter route.
The bus operators association (One Bus) were seeking some 13 (or was it 19?) bus stands for lay overs across the city centre which they never got - perhaps Bee Network will address the problem?
In some cases there are two or three marked bays which increases the capacity of that stop.
Early running buses are required to move off and "go round the block" to come back to pickup on time
Some of the stands on Oldham Street and those on Piccadilly (76 216 230 231) had buses going up Lever Street, left onto Gt Ancoats St, back down Oldham St and were then late departing due to traffic conditions! Hence a cut through re-established at Stevensons Sq which enabled a shorter route.
The bus operators association (One Bus) were seeking some 13 (or was it 19?) bus stands for lay overs across the city centre which they never got - perhaps Bee Network will address the problem?
Two minor rounds of timetable changes on the Bee Network available at https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus
From this weekend there is some very minor tinkering with a handful of routes in the tranche 1 area. (Routes 471, 559, 573, 588, 596, 610) When I say very minor, the 610 change alters just one late evening journey to start five minutes later.
Then next weekend there are changes to the 52, 53 and 135. Like many changes since the Bee
Network came in these are extended running times and increased PVR to accommodate these. The biggest increase seems to be on the 53 journey that leaves Cheetham Hill at 15:10, getting an extra 19 minutes. From old timetables you can see this journey has now been extended by 32 minutes since 2017 (1h45 to 2h17). The traffic is just making bus services in Manchester unsustainable, and the 53 doesn't even touch the City Centre.
It's unlikely to matter to anyone in this case, but why not do all these changes on one day?
From this weekend there is some very minor tinkering with a handful of routes in the tranche 1 area. (Routes 471, 559, 573, 588, 596, 610) When I say very minor, the 610 change alters just one late evening journey to start five minutes later.
Then next weekend there are changes to the 52, 53 and 135. Like many changes since the Bee
Network came in these are extended running times and increased PVR to accommodate these. The biggest increase seems to be on the 53 journey that leaves Cheetham Hill at 15:10, getting an extra 19 minutes. From old timetables you can see this journey has now been extended by 32 minutes since 2017 (1h45 to 2h17). The traffic is just making bus services in Manchester unsustainable, and the 53 doesn't even touch the City Centre.
It's unlikely to matter to anyone in this case, but why not do all these changes on one day?