Companies That You Expect to Disappear Soon

[Bald Rick]

Sainsburys, Morrisons, ASDA and Tesco have been offering clothes for a while then also stationery. So Marks and Spencer have been adding food to their portfolio - with success.

“A while” is doing some work there! Tescos was selling clothes at least half a century ago, and the main supermarkets have been selling stationery for that sort of time as well, and expanded to a pretty full range of standard stationery products at least 30 years ago. M&S have had food halls for at least half a century too - and have been expanding in that market for the last 30 years+.

WHSmith’s problem is simply that people just don’t need anywhere as near as much stationery now than they did 30 years ago, and their other ‘staple’ products are selling far less than a decade ago, eg newspapers, magazines etc. 20 years ago, the Sun sold 4m print copies daily, the Mirror and Mail around 2m each, the Express and Telegraph a million, the Times and Star 1.5m between them. Total around 12 million. Not all papers issue circulation data now, but analysis by the Press Gazette suggests the total is around 2million daily, ie an 80%+ drop. That’s just papers. Add in falling print book sales, no CDs / DVDs, etc etc and they are toast.

 

[SuspectUsual]

WHSmith’s problem is simply that people just don’t need anywhere as near as much stationery now than they did 30 years ago, and there other ‘staple’ products ares selling far less than a decade ago, eg newspapers, magazines etc.

Exactly

Is there a single category Smiths sell that’s growing?

Papers - no

Mags - no

Stationery - no

Books - no

Toys / games - no

Greetings cards - no

And the non-price marked stuff they sell is more expensive than their competitors

 

[Bishopstone]

A worrying development for what remains of the magazine trade.

 

[Sun Chariot]

WHSmith’s problem is simply that people just don’t need anywhere as near as much stationery now than they did 30 years agat.

Exactly and I can see WHS taking the same path as Woolies.

I worked at both companies as store manager during the 90s, then I moved into Woolies' central offices for a few years until its demise I saw first hand, the poor decisions being made by its leadership

WW was churning out the same stuff - year in and year out - products that supermarkets were selling for better quality & lower price. With the convenience of getting all one's other shopping at the same time and having free parking to boot.

Woolies tried "Big W", its out of town stores; but they'd failed to create sufficient reason to  go there. It led to the ridiculous scenarios such as 48 foot displays of each major chocolate brand - guess what chocolate does in a big metal hot shed...

The ultimate farce, Woolies sold their music + DVD + gaming products supply chain to Tesco. Which promptly led to all the top selling items being "out of stock to WW" but, strangely, so abundant at Tesco stores. Didn't see that coming....

 

[wilbers]

Happened to look in the WHSmith 3rd nearest (but larger) to me a couple of weeks ago for the first time in at least 2 years (I have popped into my local one every now and then) as I got a gift voucher for Christmas and wanted a browse - the toy section has turned into a Toys R Us section with loads of security things on them. Also has a post office in there which my local WHSmith has had for years (main post office in town closed and opened a smaller one in there (as well as another in town in the back of a Spar)). As far as I understand magazines, the publishers effectively rent shelf space in WHSmith, so those 3 things combined (are there any others) are a significant % of some branches. Stationery I bulk buy padded envelopes and brown tape online, sellotape usually from B&M, and the odd other thing comes from an independent.

 

[sor]

I do wonder if the Post Office has any kind of backup plan should WHS or its new owner conduct mass store closures, given that virtually all "crown" post offices have been closed and stuffed into the back of the nearest WHSmiths.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Hopefully I have quoted this correctly.

WH Smith considers sale of high street business including more than 500 stores​

Retailer says it plans to explore ‘strategic options’ for the future of ‘cash generative’ arm of the company.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ers-possible-sale-of-its-high-street-business

 

[Sun Chariot]

Hopefully I have quoted this correctly.

WH Smith considers sale of high street business including more than 500 stores​

Retailer says it plans to explore ‘strategic options’ for the future of ‘cash generative’ arm of the company.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ers-possible-sale-of-its-high-street-business

Thanks, is this different to post #4247?

 

[Andyh82]

I worry that like when Woolworths closed, WHSmith closing would have wider effects on things like specialist magazines

Many here will read a railway magazine and even if you subscribe direct, you will have seen them first in person to decide which one you prefer.

Railway station WHSmiths are often extremely tiny unless you live in a big city

In medium sized towns, WHSmith might be the only book seller besides the top 10 paperbacks that they might have in Tesco

 

[philjo]

I needed some A5 white envelopes recently. WH Smith were selling a pack of 25 for £7.75. An equivalent pack in Morrisons 5 minutes walk away cost me £2

 

[Anonymous10]

I worry that like when Woolworths closed, WHSmith closing would have wider effects on things like specialist magazines

Many here will read a railway magazine and even if you subscribe direct, you will have seen them first in person to decide which one you prefer.

Railway station WHSmiths are often extremely tiny unless you live in a big city

In medium sized towns, WHSmith might be the only book seller besides the top 10 paperbacks that they might have in Tesco

This is my primary concern, they do an archaeology magazine i enjoy as well as warships international fleet review. Fortunately our local independent bookshop has started stocking these so i will likely be buying from them more than before.

 

[philjo]

Our convenience store also sells papers and Magazines that can be ordered for collection or home delivery so they should also be able to obtain the specialist titles. It used to be McColls but is now a Morrisons local. The large Morrisons also stocks a wide range of Magazines.

I have found the range of titles on display in WHSmith to be somewhat reduced recently compared to the range previously offered.

The Cambridge wHSmith store used to have 2 floors but when I went in earlier this month the upper floor had been closed off and a reduced range of stock was condensed onto the ground floor.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I went to WHSMith a few weeks ago, the selection of products they had on sale from the Christmas range wouldn’t have looked out of place in early December, except of course it was January and everything was well over half off. I’d be surprised if they sold much at full price at all.

Yes. I have been scratching my head over that one. Basically it is madness to buy Christmas things like cards just before er Christmas !.

“A while” is doing some work there! Tescos was selling clothes at least half a century ago, and the main supermarkets have been selling stationery for that sort of time as well, and expanded to a pretty full range of standard stationery products at least 30 years ago. M&S have had food halls for at least half a century too - and have been expanding in that market for the last 30 years+.

WHSmith’s problem is simply that people just don’t need anywhere as near as much stationery now than they did 30 years ago, and their other ‘staple’ products are selling far less than a decade ago, eg newspapers, magazines etc. 20 years ago, the Sun sold 4m print copies daily, the Mirror and Mail around 2m each, the Express and Telegraph a million, the Times and Star 1.5m between them. Total around 12 million. Not all papers issue circulation data now, but analysis by the Press Gazette suggests the total is around 2million daily, ie an 80%+ drop. That’s just papers. Add in falling print book sales, no CDs / DVDs, etc etc and they are toast.

Showing my age !. I agree it has been a demise going back a long way. Somewhere back in the middle of that period John Menzies got swallowed up by WH Smith as well - was that in the 1990s ?.

Our convenience store also sells papers and Magazines that can be ordered for collection or home delivery so they should also be able to obtain the specialist titles. It used to be McColls but is now a Morrisons local. The large Morrisons also stocks a wide range of Magazines.

I have found the range of titles on display in WHSmith to be somewhat reduced recently compared to the range previously offered.

The Cambridge wHSmith store used to have 2 floors but when I went in earlier this month the upper floor had been closed off and a reduced range of stock was condensed onto the ground floor.

Oh dear, same in Croydon, our WH Smith still advertises an upstairs but it has been closed for quite a while now !.
This suggests not much effort is going into running the "High Street" WH Smiths effectively, but is there any point ?.

 

[Andyh82]

Our convenience store also sells papers and Magazines that can be ordered for collection or home delivery so they should also be able to obtain the specialist titles.

I suppose the point is, if you’ve never seen the magazine how does a new customer know it exists, therefore new customers dry up, and eventually the magazine closes

Railway magazines is probably a bad example as train station WHSmiths generally have a rail section for obvious reasons, but other specialist hobby magazines may not be stocked anywhere else but WHSmith

I’m sure unless you’ve got a Ryman’s, some more specialist items of stationery can’t be bought anywhere else either, particularly since Staples closed down. Back when I was a student I used to like nice stationery and used to frequent WHSmith regularly, but it looks like the students of today will have to get Tesco or Poundland plain black ring binders going forward, assuming they still make paper notes?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I suppose the point is, if you’ve never seen the magazine how does a new customer know it exists, therefore new customers dry up, and eventually the magazine closes

Railway magazines is probably a bad example as train station WHSmiths generally have a rail section for obvious reasons, but other specialist hobby magazines may not be stocked anywhere else but WHSmith

I’m sure unless you’ve got a Ryman’s, some more specialist items of stationery can’t be bought anywhere else either, particularly since Staples closed down. Back when I was a student I used to like nice stationery and used to frequent WHSmith regularly, but it looks like the students of today will have to get Tesco or Poundland plain black ring binders going forward, assuming they still make paper notes?

Even in Croydon there is nothing once WH Smith goes. Rymans went ages ago.

 

[Discuss223]

I expect some of the clothing retailers to disappear soon, such as Urban Outfitters, All Saints...there are so many bland stores out there that don't have anything unique.

Zara seem to have given up designing their shops to look interesting, everything is beige.

I could see Next going under too, they get a fair few browsers but so little buyers.

 

[trebor79]

I expect some of the clothing retailers to disappear soon, such as Urban Outfitters, All Saints...there are so many bland stores out there that don't have anything unique.

Zara seem to have given up designing their shops to look interesting, everything is beige.

I could see Next going under too, they get a fair few browsers but so little buyers.

Err, I don't see Next going under any time soon. They make stacks of cash! I don't usually go there myself but when I did I was surprised at the low prices and decent-ish quality (one tee shirt all the stitching unravelled after a couple of washes). These days I usually buy quality clothes from independent outfitters and department stores as I find the quality is much higher and they last longer.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I could see Next going under too, they get a fair few browsers but so little buyers.

Next are nowhere near being in trouble. Record profits of about a billion forecast for this year and a net margin of about 12%.

Remember they do a lot of big ticket business selling furniture (almost all online) and online also accounts for a big chunk of their clothing sales too.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Next are nowhere near being in trouble. Record profits of about a billion forecast for this year and a net margin of about 12%.

Remember they do a lot of big ticket business selling furniture (almost all online) and online also accounts for a big chunk of their clothing sales too.

I agree there are no signs that Next is at risk. The net margin you quote, well illustrates the fine balance typical of the retail sector, between being in profit and operating at loss.

Take a medium size non-food retailer: now add on the costs of product design, manufacturing, labour, supply chain (often global air + sea), import duties on finished goods, UK storage and distribution, stock as "tied capital" sat in stores (e.g. the stuff that hasn't sold), returns, reverse logistics and disposal.
Also factor increasing costs of renting stores, warehouses and lorries; the cost of lighting, heating and powering, costs for staffing those - and effects of increased Minimum Wage and UK employers' higher National Insurance contributions.

Then factor in the suppliers and the creditors, wanting their payments, for goods and services consumed by the retailer. It all adds up, it all erodes the balance sheet.

 

[Bald Rick]

I could see Next going under too, they get a fair few browsers but so little buyers.

No chance of Next ‘going under’, but every chance they continue store closures and end up with a large online business and a smaller number of large stores on retail parks, major shopping centres and the ‘high streets’ of the biggest cities. Basically they occupy a similar market segment as M&S, just without the food.

 

[GoneSouth]

"Secret talks" well they're not that secret clearly

They shouldn’t have been trusted to take on post office branches. Never thought that was a good idea

There's presumably nothing saying whoever buys them has to run them as a newsagent or whatever WH Smith counts as these days. They might be useful to the likes of poundstretcher or bargain booze for example.

please god no, we have an epidemic of that junk already

 

[GatwickDepress]

Next are nowhere near being in trouble. Record profits of about a billion forecast for this year and a net margin of about 12%.

Remember they do a lot of big ticket business selling furniture (almost all online) and online also accounts for a big chunk of their clothing sales too.

All my Next purchases are online as the shop never has anything I want in-stock. I do pickup my parcels from the store though, purely to save on postage.

 

[Harpo]

All my Next purchases are online as the shop never has anything I want in-stock.

I’m a big fan of online shopping, but not for clothing.

Quality (my touch/feel test) is hugely variable even at Next where I’ve ordered a second colour of a shop-bought item and received a lower quality item.

 

[GoneSouth]

I’m a big fan of online shopping, but not for clothing.

Quality (my touch/feel test) is hugely variable even at Next where I’ve ordered a second colour of a shop-bought item and received a lower quality item.

I find Next very variable, the sizes are all over the place. The lady who I returned a pair of jeans to in the shop agreed which wasn’t a great endorsement

They’ll be last man standing on most high streets when it come to buying clothing though so we better all get used to it.

It irks how online brands are now complaining about the number of returns they’re receiving and are now imposing sanctions on people for doing so. What the hell are we supposed to do. Even M&S are retreating from high streets, we don’t have much choice left but online. Sad times.

 

[317 forever]

I suppose the point is, if you’ve never seen the magazine how does a new customer know it exists, therefore new customers dry up, and eventually the magazine closes

Railway magazines is probably a bad example as train station WHSmiths generally have a rail section for obvious reasons, but other specialist hobby magazines may not be stocked anywhere else but WHSmith

I’m sure unless you’ve got a Ryman’s, some more specialist items of stationery can’t be bought anywhere else either, particularly since Staples closed down. Back when I was a student I used to like nice stationery and used to frequent WHSmith regularly, but it looks like the students of today will have to get Tesco or Poundland plain black ring binders going forward, assuming they still make paper notes?

While I occasionally see some rail magazines in Sainsbury's, these do not include Today's Railways UK, and not always Modern Railways either. I have never seen Buses available anywhere other than WH Smith, or the now closed Ian Allan bookstore.

If WH Smith does sell up to a new retailer who discontinues these, I shall have to subscribe. Admittedly I did send off for these online during the lockdowns (no digression intended).

 

[GatwickDepress]

I’m a big fan of online shopping, but not for clothing.

Quality (my touch/feel test) is hugely variable even at Next where I’ve ordered a second colour of a shop-bought item and received a lower quality item.

To be fair to Next, their women's clothing generally tends to be quite good in terms of quality and sizing, but I usually go for a looser fit anyway - I can't speak for their menswear.

M&S has gone really downhill in the last decade or so though. Used to be my go-to for workwear, but they fall apart in weeks.

 

[Spaceship323]

Exactly

Is there a single category Smiths sell that’s growing?

Papers - no

Mags - no

Stationery - no

Books - no

Toys / games - no

Greetings cards - no

And the non-price marked stuff they sell is more expensive than their competitors

Food / meal deals at stations - probably not now their meals have gone up to £5.99, it's cheaper now to sit in at a pumpkin cafe

 

[Bishopstone]

The issue for the specialist magazine trade, if WHS disappear from the high street, will be in letting people know their product exists. The breadth of titles stocked by WHS, and the ability to browse, will be how many of us were introduced to our favourite magazines and then became regular purchasers, if not subscribers.

Of course, some people have always taken advantage of WSH’s tolerant approach to browsing, to read most of a magazine in-store: small newsagents, understandably, tend to be less forgiving of this behaviour. With budgetary pressures, few public libraries now hold hobby magazines, either.

I wouldn’t subscribe postally to a magazine I hadn’t ‘test-driven’, and this will become a distribution problem for the publishers, with knock-on impacts for their advertisers, who are mostly small businesses within the trade. All of this in a market that’s declining year on year anyway, as the sub-50s don’t buy magazines in volume.

This said, I don’t know whether news and magazines make money for WHS, once a bit of cross-selling is factored in. If store footprints could be right-sized, it’s possible a purchaser might continue this line of business, but I suspect the book trade will be stopped – loads of cash tied-up in floor space on slow turnover stock.

 

[eyebrook1961]

All my Next purchases are online as the shop never has anything I want in-stock. I do pickup my parcels from the store though, purely to save on postage.

Mrs eyebrook is a lady who is almost exclusively NOT catered for by Nexts' physical shops (larger sized clothing) and so her purchases are 99% online which, unfortunately, results in a large portion of said purchases being returned to a physical shop (mainly because you cannot feel the material or truly tell how it looks without wearing the items)

I hate to think how much time (money) is spent by next dealing with their "european returns mountain" as there are always others in a queue waiting to return stuff when we turn up . . .

 

[SuspectUsual]

Mrs eyebrook is a lady who is almost exclusively NOT catered for by Nexts' physical shops (larger sized clothing) and so her purchases are 99% online which, unfortunately, results in a large portion of said purchases being returned to a physical shop (mainly because you cannot feel the material or truly tell how it looks without wearing the items)

I hate to think how much time (money) is spent by next dealing with their "european returns mountain" as there are always others in a queue waiting to return stuff when we turn up . . .

The simple answer is “a lot” but it’s a recognised cost of doing business online, and partially offsets the many savings compared to bricks and mortar trading (reduced building and staff costs, better stock availability whilst holding less overall stock etc etc).

Returns rates are typically 30% (ish) depending on the product. Retailers have spent a lot of time in recent years getting sizing more consistent as this will help reduce returns rates a bit, but you’ll always get orders which have the same product in two sizes because the customer is going out at the weekend and needs to be sure they’ll have something to wear that fits