Cancellations of last train of night

[Class800]

This is a situation that may fill many people with dread. We know what's supposed to happen. We know what can happen in reality. We've probably all got experiences, good and bad. I've always found both GWR and SWR very helpful. I'd still be very confident if I got stuck at Exeter St David's,Salisbury, or Bristol Temple Meads.

But something happened last Sunday night that's shaken my confidence in GWR sorting things out if it's a smaller station. Last train of night 22.49 from Exeter St Thomas cancelled. No special stop order on the remaining non stopping local 30 mins later. No alternative transport. Help point just said walk to Exeter St David's. 20 minutes fast walk in cold and dark. I know the way. I'd not want any of my female friends to be in that situation. I made the last connection to Cranbrook so wasn't actually delayed at all. Just a walk part route.

I followed up with GWR and they were OK with what happened. I can take 2 trains before or after (that would be next day!) or not travel and claim refund. I know St David's will arrange alternative transport if you're really stuck. But walking part route seems OK to them.

Exeter St Thomas to St David's it's not the longest of walks but isn't pleasant in the dark. Yet if I was at Marsh Barton instead would they really have said walk too? That's probably 40 minutes walk to St David's and I'd have needed onward transport by time I got there too. Or Starcross or Exminster!

We know what's meant to happen. But just sharing a tale of caution from this experience to be aware of GWR late night cancellations at moment and to be aware things might not work out how they should. Personally I'd be loathe to take last train of night if there's no alternative way I can get to my destination by train or bus if its cancelled.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Somebody posted this happening on Christmas Eve just passed, which is the worst time for the last train to be cancelled!

 

[godfreycomplex]

I'd not want any of my female friends to be in that situation

Quite

In many places the last train is considered more or less sacred and must be run at all costs. On many routes it provides the most social benefit of any service. This seems to have been eroded recently, perhaps by the narrative often peddled by others of last trains being full of "scrotes" (ugh), which somehow makes cancelling them acceptable. When the alternative is long walks at night or people potentially drunk driving home, it makes for grim reading.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Quite

In many places the last train is considered more or less sacred and must be run at all costs. On many routes it provides the most social benefit of any service. This seems to have been eroded recently, perhaps by the narrative often peddled by others of last trains being full of "scrotes" (ugh), which somehow makes cancelling them acceptable. When the alternative is long walks at night or people potentially drunk driving home, it makes for grim reading.

Yes, and for nighttime economy workers too. I was surprised to see just how many commuters the 04:20 from Brighton to Victoria picked up within the Great London area.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It is one thing I’m surprised has never been made a legal obligation upon train operators - to honour the last departure from each station regardless of cost or difficulty. Obviously in some cases it isn’t possible and other non-rail alternatives must be found (bus, taxi, hotel) but essentially stranding customers is completely unacceptable and should be treated as an offence.

 

[MikeWM]

In many places the last train is considered more or less sacred and must be run at all costs. On many routes it provides the most social benefit of any service. This seems to have been eroded recently,

Very much so over here in Great Northern land. Whatever their other faults, both WAGN and FCC did whatever they could to run the last trains, even if they were (necessarily) significantly delayed. GN just don't seem to care and last trains are cancelled on a regular basis. It's one of many things that have considerably soured my feelings towards the railway over the last 10 years or so. I used to rely on last trains frequently (and never got stranded) - now I just avoid last trains wherever possible.

 

[Sleepy]

Very much so over here in Great Northern land. Whatever their other faults, both WAGN and FCC did whatever they could to run the last trains, even if they were (necessarily) significantly delayed. GN just don't seem to care and last trains are cancelled on a regular basis. It's one of many things that have considerably soured my feelings towards the railway over the last 10 years or so. I used to rely on last trains frequently (and never got stranded) - now I just avoid last trains wherever possible.

In Greater Anglia land last trains are seen as "run at almost any cost" and I'm very surprised that MPs /Transport Focus don't bang the drum given TOC's responsibility to transport you somehow or provide accommodation.

 

[Edsmith]

I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that the last train is sacrosanct and must operate at all costs, often the previous train would be cancelled and set back to cover the last train. And if it cannot operate for whatever reason then taxis or hotels must be provided. This was a few years ago though and despite what he said I try and avoid having to rely on the last of the day. I dread to think of the possible consequences of vulnerable passengers being left stranded at some remote station.

 

[GW43125]

Quite appropriate that this has come up tonight, as SWR have just binned off tonight's last trains to Reading, Dorking & Guildford!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is one thing I’m surprised has never been made a legal obligation upon train operators

If this country was serious about public transport then the same obligations would be placed on rail companies as are placed on the airlines.

I think we all know why this has not happened and why this will never happen.

How the railway treats passengers during disruption is nothing short of a disgrace. No duty of care and if you end up out of pocket then it’s just tough luck.

The railway would react very differently if they were on the hook for duty of care expenses. As it is they don’t care. They’re not the ones out of pocket.

 

[MikeWM]

In Greater Anglia land last trains are seen as "run at almost any cost" and I'm very surprised that MPs /Transport Focus don't bang the drum given TOC's responsibility to transport you somehow or provide accommodation.

GA seem to be a rather well-run TOC that pretty much do what they are supposed to do. Unfortunately they seem quite unique in this on the railway nowadays.

The only time I've been stranded in recent years was at Cambridge, trying to get back to Ely - GA staff sorted matters out quickly and it wasn't long before (pre-paid) taxis were organised for myself and a number of other passengers going to a range of destinations. As ought to happen everywhere.

--

I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that the last train is sacrosanct and must operate at all costs, often the previous train would be cancelled and set back to cover the last train.

I've personally observed, on a number of occasions, that this was exactly how WAGN and FCC operated back in the day. GTR are far less organised/concerned/bothered - it seems a regular occurrence, for example, that they run the penultimate train from Kings Cross to Kings Lynn at 2239, and cancel the last one at 2309.

 

[robbeech]

It is one thing I’m surprised has never been made a legal obligation upon train operators - to honour the last departure from each station regardless of cost or difficulty.

There shouldn’t need to be a legal obligation to run this as there is already a legal obligation to get passengers to their destination by train, or alternative transport or provide overnight accommodation.

The problem is that they’ve realised they can get away with breaking this law and the law doesn’t catch up with them due to corruption.

You can either help a passenger as per your legal obligation or you can simply not help a passenger and nothing will come of it.

 

[Class800]

I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that the last train is sacrosanct and must operate at all costs, often the previous train would be cancelled and set back to cover the last train. And if it cannot operate for whatever reason then taxis or hotels must be provided. This was a few years ago though and despite what he said I try and avoid having to rely on the last of the day. I dread to think of the possible consequences of vulnerable passengers being left stranded at some remote station.

consequences for whom? For the railway seemingly none as they say you should have got the previous train. For the passenger additional costs, the downside of 'personal responsibility', which may be impossible to reclaim

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2025 ==

There shouldn’t need to be a legal obligation to run this as there is already a legal obligation to get passengers to their destination by train, or alternative transport or provide overnight accommodation.

The problem is that they’ve realised they can get away with breaking this law and the law doesn’t catch up with them due to corruption.

You can either help a passenger as per your legal obligation or you can simply not help a passenger and nothing will come of it.

I remember it is caveated by 'if possible' but that isn't defined

 

[REO Nate]

I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that the last train is sacrosanct and must operate at all costs, often the previous train would be cancelled and set back to cover the last train. And if it cannot operate for whatever reason then taxis or hotels must be provided. This was a few years ago though and despite what he said I try and avoid having to rely on the last of the day. I dread to think of the possible consequences of vulnerable passengers being left stranded at some remote station.

I worked as a guard for SE_Railway and can confirm this is the position.

 

[robbeech]

consequences for whom? For the railway seemingly none as they say you should have got the previous train. For the passenger additional costs, the downside of 'personal responsibility', which may be impossible to reclaim

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2025 ==


I remember it is caveated by 'if possible' but that isn't defined

All that means is if they can, if there simply aren’t options for taxis then they get a hotel. There’s no budget restrictions for this.

 

[riceuten]

My experience of Thameslink Great Northern has been pretty grim. Last trains now cancelled more than previously, and little or no staff around. When staff have been available, they either

a) know nothing (because they can't get through to control)
b) tell you to get a hotel/taxi and "send the bill to TSGN"

which is utterly absymal

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2025 ==

All that means is if they can, if there simply aren’t options for taxis then they get a hotel. There’s no budget restrictions for this.

One night I was stranded at Hemel station, and there was no-one at the TOC answering the phone and no-one available at the station. The station is perhaps 2 miles from the town centre, which is not overprovided for with accommodation. The taxi rank - given there were no more trains - was completely empty.

If that isn't abandoning passengers, I don't know what is

 

[Class800]

All that means is if they can, if there simply aren’t options for taxis then they get a hotel. There’s no budget restrictions for this.

I've seen some very expensive ones done by staff, some excellent service. I've been taxi'd from Salisbury to Plumstead (London SE Zone 4). I know someone who got taxi'd from Bristol Temple Meads to Plymouth. I first hand saw staff at Exeter ST Davids arranging someone a taxi to Starcross (a local station a good few miles away) - even when the issue was caused by a different TOC than operates the station (someone I know at the station says they've been coming under pressure a bit over this recently from management). Large well staffed stations have never let me down - it's the help point at unstaffed stations that's caused the issues for me

 

[riceuten]

Large well staffed stations have never let me down - it's the help point at unstaffed stations that's caused the issues for me

Kings Cross and St Pancras certainly have.

The excuse? "Passenger abuse".

 

[Class800]

Kings Cross and St Pancras certainly have.

The excuse? "Passenger abuse".

I wasn't there so can't comment on what might have been considered abusive. I always just ask and never have an issue. Those stations serve very long distance trains, it would be the same as the last Exeter to London being cancelled. In that case, it would be almost certainly ticket acceptance for the next day. Whether they can sort accommodation or they will ask you to claim from TOC or your travel insurance, I don't know.

 

[Horizon22]

Last trains should always be considered as golden really.

However there are times when it is completely unavoidable. If a diagram is uncovered and it’s one of if not the last finisher at a depot and drivers will/can not swap to their diagram and there’s a refusal for overtime, you’ll have to cancel that service further down the line up to where it can be covered.

This is where having a plan B (alternative transport, hotels, taxis etc.) really needs to be implemented. Do I have faith every TOC will do this? Sadly not. Often it’s struggling to get the authorisation from a senior enough level in the late hours to be able to implement what is required and delegation isn’t there, especially when costs are being so heavily scrutinised even if - in this instance - it’s totally valid.

 

[JordR]

I'm always mindful (probably because my day job involves considering these things) that we indirectly pay for the level of assistance we receive. So a higher standard will eventually reach us in higher fares and a lower standard will eventually reach us in lower fares.

What's reasonable here? It probably feels to me that for a last train the order of priority should be something like:

(1) Alternative journey by public transport, which might include taxi to another station with onward services.

(2) Taxi to destination, where cheaper than hotel.

(3) Hotel.

(4) Taxi to destination, where no hotel available.

 

[riceuten]

Those stations serve very long distance trains, it would be the same as the last Exeter to London being cancelled. In that case, it would be almost certainly ticket acceptance for the next day. Whether they can sort accommodation or they will ask you to claim from TOC or your travel insurance, I don't know.

It was (long) after the last long distance trains had departed. These were suburban services that go to Cambridge and Peterborough.

 

[Jimini]

Quite appropriate that this has come up tonight, as SWR have just binned off tonight's last trains to Reading, Dorking & Guildford!

I'm genuinely intrigued as to how this situation played out!

 

[boiledbeans2]

Quite appropriate that this has come up tonight, as SWR have just binned off tonight's last trains to Reading, Dorking & Guildford!

I'm genuinely intrigued as to how this situation played out!

Interesting that the 0020 to Reading, 0025 to Dorking, 0040 to Guildford on the morning of 25th Jan don't even appear on RTT.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Large well staffed stations have never let me down - it's the help point at unstaffed stations that's caused the issues for me

The last time I tried to use a help point, it wasn't even working!

I was told by a member of Southeastern staff that the last train is sacrosanct and must operate at all costs, often the previous train would be cancelled and set back to cover the last train. And if it cannot operate for whatever reason then taxis or hotels must be provided. This was a few years ago though and despite what he said I try and avoid having to rely on the last of the day. I dread to think of the possible consequences of vulnerable passengers being left stranded at some remote station.

Can confirm that Southeastern are generally solid about the last train, even if it's not theirs. When there's been delays out of St Pancras and I've been aiming for the connection at Ashford, either the Hastings train has been held or cabs are already waiting for us at the entrance.

As the last Hastings train offers no onward connections for other passengers to miss (all other buses/trains have finished at this point), I suppose holding is more viable in that situation.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I'm genuinely intrigued as to how this situation played out!

Buses were arranged, from Wimbledon for stations to Dorking, Staines for Reading and Woking for Guildford

All of these connected with later trains, incidentally the Guildford was binned to use the driver to work the 0105 Southampton

 

[Vexed]

All of these connected with later trains, incidentally the Guildford was binned to use the driver to work the 0105 Southampton

It's a longer distance so harder to bus. Makes some sense to me.

It's essentially a stopper and gets a lot of intermediate traffic getting off close to London from my experience - the one time I've got it it left Waterloo with nearly every seat taken, then nearly empty by Southampton!

 

[Siemens Staines]

Interesting that the 0020 to Reading, 0025 to Dorking, 0040 to Guildford on the morning of 25th Jan don't even appear on RTT.

RTT deletes visibility of VSTP cancelled services (VCN). You can see them by selecting CAN e.g.

Realtime Trains | Departures from London Waterloo between 0015 and 0045 on 25/01/2025

Train information at London Waterloo between 0015 and 0045 on 25/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[FenMan]

From last spring until late last year the last trains on the North Downs Line were cancelled frequently (in both directions).

Perhaps the costs of taxis and reputational issues has led to great minds at GWR working out that it might actually be better to actually run their timetabled service, as performance has improved lately.

 

[DarloRich]

I have never failed to get a taxi fare back in these circumstances but it often takes a LOT of persistence! It should just be an immediate sign off.