Using a permitted change point as an actual destination on a shorter journey ticket

[styles]

Not sure the title is quite right but there we go.

I'm trying to work out if this is permitted or not.

Let's say I want to go from Long Eaton to Nottingham.

A single from Long Eaton to Attenborough is £3.00.
A single from Long Eaton to Nottingham is £5.90.

However, a valid journey may be a train from Long Eaton to Nottingham (not stopping at Attenborough), and a train from Nottingham back to Attenborough.

As they're not Advance fares, and there's no restrictions preventing breaking journey, is there actually anything preventing buying the Long Eaton to Attenborough ticket and ending your journey at Nottingham?

Appreciate I may have chosen a poor example as I think pretty much every Long Eaton to Nottingham train stops at Beeston, which is the same fare as Long Eaton to Attenborough, so you'd be expected to change there; but I'm struggling to think of a real example!

 

[Flying Snail]

Not sure the title is quite right but there we go.

I'm trying to work out if this is permitted or not.

Let's say I want to go from Long Eaton to Nottingham.

A single from Long Eaton to Attenborough is £3.00.
A single from Long Eaton to Nottingham is £5.90.

However, a valid journey may be a train from Long Eaton to Nottingham (not stopping at Attenborough), and a train from Nottingham back to Attenborough.

As they're not Advance fares, and there's no restrictions preventing breaking journey, is there actually anything preventing buying the Long Eaton to Attenborough ticket and ending your journey at Nottingham?

Appreciate I may have chosen a poor example as I think pretty much every Long Eaton to Nottingham train stops at Beeston, which is the same fare as Long Eaton to Attenborough, so you'd be expected to change there; but I'm struggling to think of a real example!

Are you asking if it is allowed to buy a short ticket and travel beyond it's validity? If there is a revenue protection officer at Nottingham what do you think their reaction to this would be?

 

[yorkie]

Not sure the title is quite right but there we go.

I'm trying to work out if this is permitted or not.

Let's say I want to go from Long Eaton to Nottingham.

A single from Long Eaton to Attenborough is £3.00.
A single from Long Eaton to Nottingham is £5.90.

However, a valid journey may be a train from Long Eaton to Nottingham (not stopping at Attenborough), and a train from Nottingham back to Attenborough.

This is not permitted.

As they're not Advance fares, and there's no restrictions preventing breaking journey, is there actually anything preventing buying the Long Eaton to Attenborough ticket and ending your journey at Nottingham?

It's not a valid route. However, in a hypothetical world, if it was, then you can be pretty sure they would increase the price upon realising what you are doing (which they would by simply reading this forum, before you even had the chance to have the ticket rejected by the barriers)

Appreciate I may have chosen a poor example as I think pretty much every Long Eaton to Nottingham train stops at Beeston, which is the same fare as Long Eaton to Attenborough, so you'd be expected to change there; but I'm struggling to think of a real example!

There are examples where it can be cheaper to pay for a longer distance journey, and it would be valid.

I am not going to list them here, because that would be a sure way to get the prices increased, or route restrictions added etc.

A good example was when via Barnham fares generated itineraries that were not intended, however once the train companies realised what was going on, they tightened the restrictions.

You can see plenty of examples where the train companies got revenge on people doing this by looking at negative easements:

https://iblocks-rg-publication.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/easement_text.pdf

Customers travelling from Hull, Hessle, Ferriby, Broomfleet and Brough to Moorthorpe
may not travel via Meadowhall. This easements applies in both directions.

Some of the examples may not have ever actually been valid, but are simply to fix errors in booking sites.

 

[Egg Centric]

There is an unsaid question here of why you thought it might be a valid route @styles - if it's because of using something like google maps to look for the quickest train journey from A to B be very aware it's not necessarily giving you a journey valid on an A to B ticket.

 

[styles]

This is not permitted.

It's not a valid route. However, in a hypothetical world, if it was, then you can be pretty sure they would increase the price upon realising what you are doing (which they would by simply reading this forum, before you even had the chance to have the ticket rejected by the barriers)

There are examples where it can be cheaper to pay for a longer distance journey, and it would be valid.

I am not going to list them here, because that would be a sure way to get the prices increased, or route restrictions added etc.

A good example was when via Barnham fares generated itineraries that were not intended, however once the train companies realised what was going on, they tightened the restrictions.

You can see plenty of examples where the train companies got revenge on people doing this by looking at negative easements:

https://iblocks-rg-publication.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/easement_text.pdf

Some of the examples may not have ever actually been valid, but are simply to fix errors in booking sites.

Gotcha, this makes a lot of sense. Are these [negative and positive] easements factored into relevant journey planning APIs?

There is an unsaid question here of why you thought it might be a valid route @styles - if it's because of using something like google maps to look for the quickest train journey from A to B be very aware it's not necessarily giving you a journey valid on an A to B ticket.

I couldn't think of a current valid route where this would apply, so the example was mainly hypothetical (though I do imagine most guards would leave you to it in the example I gave).

 

[Sultan]

Not sure if this is an example of what 'styles' is referring to:

Off-Peak Day Single from Gomshall to Reigate using the 13:52 train today costs £7.20 for an Off-Peak Day Single (restriction code B3, which I believe relates to morning rush hour only) or £8.30 for an Anytime single where a break of journey is allowed.
Off-Peak Day Single from Gomshall to Redhill using the 13:52 train today costs £5.20 for an Off-Peak Day Single (B3 restriction) or £6.30 for an Anytime single where a break of journey is allowed.

Redhill is the stop after Reigate on this service so there is no apparent restriction stopping you from buying the ticket to Redhill but getting off at Reigate (whether the barriers would reject and you'd have to persuade anyone it's ok to do) would seem the sensible thing to do financially.

Returns are the same.

 

[dontteleport]

I think what OP is getting at is journeys wherein you may need to overshoot your destination to connect back to it, with this typically being permitted by way of station group/3 mile rule. See this thread for more.

See another (perhaps more commonly used) example below:

I buy an off-peak single from Wandsworth Common to Hove. Changing trains southbound is awkward and usually requires two changes due to stopping patterns. Changing one stop further up at Clapham Junction is far more intuitive as trains for Hove stop right there. You can get such an itinerary on journey planners with this ticket so it is valid. But can I therefore alight at Clapham Junction as a break of journey?

 

[jfollows]

I think what OP is getting at is journeys wherein you may need to overshoot your destination to connect back to it, with this typically being permitted by way of station group/3 mile rule. See this thread for more.

See another (perhaps more commonly used) example below:

I buy an off-peak single from Wandsworth Common to Hove. Changing trains southbound is awkward and usually requires two changes due to stopping patterns. Changing one stop further up at Clapham Junction is far more intuitive as trains for Hove stop right there. You can get such an itinerary on journey planners with this ticket so it is valid. But can I therefore alight at Clapham Junction as a break of journey?

Yes.
If it’s a valid route, and your ticket allows break of journey. Clapham Junction is valid as a route Wandsworth Common - Hove as you say - it passes the fares check - and so you can break your journey there also.

 

[Farigiraf]

I think what OP is getting at is journeys wherein you may need to overshoot your destination to connect back to it, with this typically being permitted by way of station group/3 mile rule. See this thread for more.

See another (perhaps more commonly used) example below:

I buy an off-peak single from Wandsworth Common to Hove. Changing trains southbound is awkward and usually requires two changes due to stopping patterns. Changing one stop further up at Clapham Junction is far more intuitive as trains for Hove stop right there. You can get such an itinerary on journey planners with this ticket so it is valid. But can I therefore alight at Clapham Junction as a break of journey?

Another example: On a London (Liverpool Street/Terminals) to Brentwood ticket, it is (usually) permitted to double back via Shenfield. Assuming this journey is done on a paper ticket which allows break of journey (as tapping out at Shenfield would charge you the London to Shenfield fare, around £3 more), you could end your journey at Shenfield, having saved enough to e.g. buy an overpriced bag of crisps from the vending machine.

 

[Watershed]

Another example: On a London (Liverpool Street/Terminals) to Brentwood ticket, it is (usually) permitted to double back via Shenfield. Assuming this journey is done on a paper ticket which allows break of journey (as tapping out at Shenfield would charge you the London to Shenfield fare, around £3 more), you could end your journey at Shenfield, having saved enough to e.g. buy an overpriced bag of crisps from the vending machine.

In that particular case, the double back is only permitted by virtue of an easement. The easement explicitly states that break of journey is not allowed at Shenfield.

 

[Farigiraf]

In that particular case, the double back is only permitted by virtue of an easement. The easement explicitly states that break of journey is not allowed at Shenfield.

Wasn't aware of that, makes sense.
In that case, another example:
Customers travelling from Oxenholme or Kendal to Staveley or Burneside may double back via Windermere. This easement applies in both directions.
This one does not explicitly restrict break of journey, so someone travelling from Kendal to Windermere presumably could purchase the £3.60 Kendal to Burneside off-peak single instead of the £6.70 Kendal to Windermere off-peak single, saving £3.10.

 

[transportphoto]

It's not a valid route. However, in a hypothetical world, if it was, then you can be pretty sure they would increase the price upon realising what you are doing (which they would by simply reading this forum, before you even had the chance to have the ticket rejected by the barriers)

I haven’t looked in detail, but it’s worth bearing in mind that Attenborough and Beeston are in the Nottingham routing group.

Another interesting one is the validity of tickets from the east (e.g. Grantham) to/from Netherfield - which seem to be valid to double back via Nottingham.

 

[The exile]

How about:
Stapleton Road to Pilning: £5.50
Stapleton Road to Newport: £15.00

Station timetable poster at Stapleton Road gives times (for one of the 2 weekly options to get to Pilning) changing at Newport - so it is presumably a valid route.

 

[jfollows]

How about:
Stapleton Road to Pilning: £5.50
Stapleton Road to Newport: £15.00

Station timetable poster at Stapleton Road gives times (for one of the 2 weekly options to get to Pilning) changing at Newport - so it is presumably a valid route.

Not a permitted route, only the shortest route, a route no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, or direct services are valid. Unless there’s an easement, I haven’t looked, and then it might also restrict break of journey as above.

 

[The exile]

Not a permitted route, only the shortest route, a route no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, or direct services are valid. Unless there’s an easement, I haven’t looked, and then it might also restrict break of journey as above.

It’s the advice published by GWR on their station timetable at Stapleton Road. I was surprised it wasn’t change at Severn Tunnel Junction, but presumably one of the trains doesn’t stop there. (For the one or two people who might not know, Pilning is served by two trains a week - both eastbound.) As Newport is barriered I’m sure there’s a rule not permitting BoJ.

 

[yorkie]

It’s the advice published by GWR on their station timetable at Stapleton Road. I was surprised it wasn’t change at Severn Tunnel Junction, but presumably one of the trains doesn’t stop there. (For the one or two people who might not know, Pilning is served by two trains a week - both eastbound.) As Newport is barriered I’m sure there’s a rule not permitting BoJ.

It's not permitted from the point of view that you can't get an itinerary.

Contractually, you are entitled to follow the instructions given. However if you then attempt to finish short, you are no longer following those instructions, and so that wouldn't be permitted in my opinion.

 

[The exile]

Think I'm going to try it one day - armed with a photo of the timetable GWR have put on their station in relation to their train service! If what a printed timetable tells you to do is not an itinerary, then I don't know what is.

 

[Blurb]

I haven’t looked in detail, but it’s worth bearing in mind that Attenborough and Beeston are in the Nottingham routing group.

Another interesting one is the validity of tickets from the east (e.g. Grantham) to/from Netherfield - which seem to be valid to double back via Nottingham.

Re: To/from Netherfield- so few trains serve Netherfield that often the only practical journey is via Nottingham to Carlton. Still usually quicker to exit at Nottingham and get bus/taxi, however the easy way to do this has recently been closed off I believe (and would also stop people travelling to Nottingham on the cheaper Netherfield ticket).

 

[AlbertBeale]

There are examples where it can be cheaper to pay for a longer distance journey, and it would be valid.

I am not going to list them here, because that would be a sure way to get the prices increased, or route restrictions added etc.

A good example was when via Barnham fares generated itineraries that were not intended, however once the train companies realised what was going on, they tightened the restrictions.

There are instances where a journey is significantly cheaper if you buy a ticket from a more distant origin but start short, than if you bought a ticket from where you're actually starting your journey; there's one such that I often use, which is completely valid.

 

[The Ham]

Another real world example, using any time tickets, is that for more then one station beyond Guildford it can be cheaper to buy a ticket to that other station than to Guildford.

The conditions allow a break of journey at any intermediate station (which Guildford would be).

One such ticket example is about £31.80 for Guildford from Basingstoke but £24.90 if its to Godalming where you pass through Guildford to get there.

The TOC's are unlikely to increase the cost of the Godalming ticket as you can just split your ticket at Farnborough (Basingstoke to Farnborough £9.40 plus £11.30 for Farnborough to Guildford, giving you a total of £20.70) to keep the price low.

As the Farnborough to Guildford is via any permitted route you can still use trains via Woking. Whilst this would be a bit slower (as you'd have to use the right trains) for a day ticket, for season tickets (unless the rules have changed again) you can use trains which don't call at Farnborough.

 

[Springs Branch]

Some years ago, I read (maybe on this forum) about fare anomalies at some particular south side suburban stations around Glasgow. Tickets from station A to a geographically nearby station B, which is located on a different line, were priced a worthwhile sum less than tickets between A and Glasgow Central (GLC) - even though the rail network's layout meant a passenger had to travel via and change at Glasgow Central.

This meant thrifty locals from A taking a train trip into the Toon could save a bit by buying a ticket from A to B then finish short (or 'break my journey to use station facilities') at GLC.

A quick sample of likely candidate fares today shows these anomalies have disappeared. The A to B via GLC fare always seems to be a bit more (maybe only by 10p) than the fare from A to Glasgow Central.

Of course, this correction might have happened just as easily because railway management noticed remarkably high sales of tickets between 'unlikely' station pairs as by them reading about the hack on an internet forum. But just reinforces - if you know about a useful, legitimate ticketing lurk - best not to be too public about it.