Would the German idea work on UK trains?

[northwichcat]

Following on from the 'pay train' thread - some German tram systems have ticket machines on board. Would this work on UK trains?

 

[WatcherZero]

Its not the most efficent way of doing things, they are very heavy.

 

[northwichcat]

Its not the most efficent way of doing things, they are very heavy.

The Spanish put vending machines on board instead of the UK equivalent of a trolley service.

 

[WestCoast]

I've mention this on a few threads about ticketing facilities in the past.

The system is also used on many private regional rail operators (such as eurobahn) in Germany and generally all tickets can be purchased, as well as on DB routes where there are no ticketing facilities (e.g. TVM) at the station (very rare outside rural areas).

The disincentive for not buying a ticket from a machine after boarding is a 40 euro penalty or prosecution in extreme circumstances.

Well, there would have to be lots of promotion in the UK. Posters, auto-announcements e.t.c. It depends on what context they are used - I'd like to see them working with guards and not as a replacement.

I am sure it wouldn't be impossible to have a TVM that was able to only sell full fare tickets if you boarded at an unstaffed station.

 

[gordonthemoron]

as do Deutsche Bahn on some regional services

 

[WestCoast]

The Spanish put vending machines on board instead of the UK equivalent of a trolley service.

DB has a "SnackPoint" on the Regional-Express double deckers - generally 3 vending machines and a few stand-up tables. IC and ICE mostly have a full cafe bar/restaurant though.

Its not the most efficent way of doing things, they are very heavy.

But how often do you hear of ticket machines at stations being vandalised or being stolen from?

 

[WatcherZero]

Robbed? I dont know, damaged, quite often.

 

[WestCoast]

Robbed? I dont know, damaged, quite often.

Vandalism seems common at certain stations. Burley Park Station in Leeds can't have a TVM that accepts cash apparently, because of constant vandalism.

How the metro systems of this country with unmanned stations/stops (e.g. Tramlink, Metrolink, T&W Metro e.t.c) deal with this sort of thing must be interesting.

I don't know about robbery figures but I have heard of quite a few cases, hence why ticket machines outside in a car park may have bollards to prevent them being rammed by a car.

Info about a case here

 

[WatcherZero]

Build them like an ATM machine, sturdy construction with scratch proof screen.

 

[Drsatan]

Build them like an ATM machine, sturdy construction with scratch proof screen.

The Schneider & Bachmann machines that FGW, SWT and a couple of other TOCs use are like that, and I've seen examples with scratched screens.

 

[route:oxford]

But how often do you hear of ticket machines at stations being vandalised or being stolen from?

Well, in Scotland the facility to take cash at most (if not all) station ticket machines was withdrawn quite some time ago.

They are now card only, and you can pay on the train using cash if you want to.

Apparently they were losing £000s every day due to a criminal understanding of weaknesses in the equipment.

 

[WestCoast]

The Schneider & Bachmann machines that FGW, SWT and a couple of other TOCs use are like that, and I've seen examples with scratched screens.

That will be the Scheidt & Bachmann Ticket XPress - a very popular model also in use with EMT, ATW, Merseyrail, FCC, Southeastern, Scotrail, Northern (seldom!) and NXEA. Also on the Manchester Metrolink.

Yes, their their screens can be scratched.

 

[atillathehunn]

I have just returned from Melbourne, and they have a similar system (I think) to the German system mentioned on the city trams there. They are quite a good system and don't particularly detract from the space in the tram, in fact they almost create space. There's a large circulating space around the machines, and they offer a little bit of a disincentive to skip the fare as there are plenty of people around you watching you not buy the ticket. Also, if one is legging it for a tram, the ability to buy the ticket on the tram is quite useful....

I don't know what they do to the weight of the tram, but they can still seem to keep pace well! Even up some of the bigger hills on the outskirts of the city they still seem to be able to bat along at a far old pace!

 

[NLC1072]

They would be ok only if they were introduced really slowly, and maintained better than the current TVMs... And then there would be a need to introduce cash handling facilities at all the local depots around the country, loomis/securitas pick ups to these depots, more staff to work these new facilities and probably, still the need for ticket offices because us British are just too used to that way of doing things. A ticket office to me just seems more logical, especially for advance purchase! A would TM/Conductor getting pestered all the time for how to use a ticket machine when they should really be concentrating more on the right time running.

Not a moan, just my thoughts =)

NLC1072

 

[185]

Norway (NSB) has vending machines on most Long Distance and Regional trains.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Norway (NSB) has vending machines on most Long Distance and Regional trains.

Is that instead or in addition to buffet/trolley service?

 

[tripleseis]

Trams in Amsterdam have a ticket office at the back of the tram for ticket purchases.

 

[daikilo]

Following on from the 'pay train' thread - some German tram systems have ticket machines on board. Would this work on UK trains?

Yes, a machine at say one door per set, clearly marked, should be adequate with a rule that passengers boarding must have a valid ticket or buy one on boarding. No need then for machines at stations. Machine should take cards and cash.

Also, the machine should be capable of printing a "valid attempt" ticket if it is unable to process the cash request, and should request a cash payment if the card PIN does not work. The machine should include a CCTV recording method.

 

[142094]

Biggest problem with ticket machines on the Metro up here is either grafitti/stickers etc or someone taking a leak on them. Haven't heard of anyone being able to get into them, as they have a massive lock on them and are emptied regularly. Plus trying to steal a whole load of coins isn't going to be quick work.

 

[WestCoast]

Biggest problem with ticket machines on the Metro up here is either grafitti/stickers etc or someone taking a leak on them. Haven't heard of anyone being able to get into them, as they have a massive lock on them and are emptied regularly. Plus trying to steal a whole load of coins isn't going to be quick work.

They are quite sturdy old beasts those Metro machines though! Remember than the more modern machines in use on the mainline carry notes and also can have their card readers fitted with skimming devices. The possibilities are endless for a criminal!

 

[Anon Mouse]

Biggest problem with ticket machines on the Metro up here is either grafitti/stickers etc or someone taking a leak on them. Haven't heard of anyone being able to get into them, as they have a massive lock on them and are emptied regularly. Plus trying to steal a whole load of coins isn't going to be quick work.

people used to stuff paper up the chute and collect the coins after a period of time. Was it also possible to rock the old machines?

 

[142094]

We'll soon see when the new ticket machines are rolled out in the next few months. There used to be a problem with the machines breaking down regularly but this seemed to have been fixed a few years back. I used to use Jesmond station everyday and at least one was out of use in the evening.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It could be an idea to introduce a card only machine on some trains, which would save the guards from having to spend over a minute going through the rigmarole of a card payment (plus how often do those portable card machines used by Northern staff seem to be broken?).

However, on a crowded commuter train, which is the time they would be most useful, I can't see passengers wanting to enter their pin numbers, or being able to get to the machines even if they wanted to.

 

[northwichcat]

I am sure it wouldn't be impossible to have a TVM that was able to only sell full fare tickets if you boarded at an unstaffed station.

I'm not sure what you mean there. Do you mean for someone boarding at a staffed station shouldn't be able to buy discounted fares? If so I'm not sure that's a good idea as passengers in long queues at ticket offices sometimes get told to buy on board and the machine can't phone to check the ticket office is closed when it should be open or be aware that the only ticket machine in the ticket office is broken.

I would revise NRCoC if they were fitted to all trains to say that a ticket must be purchased before alighting the train unless the ticket machines on board are out-of-order.

 

[cuccir]

It could be an idea to introduce a card only machine on some trains, which would save the guards from having to spend over a minute going through the rigmarole of a card payment (plus how often do those portable card machines used by Northern staff seem to be broken?).

However, on a crowded commuter train, which is the time they would be most useful, I can't see passengers wanting to enter their pin numbers, or being able to get to the machines even if they wanted to.

This (my highlighting) seems to be the most obvious obstacle in the UK. How to judge when it's too busy to get to the ticket machine on board? The answer differs depending on how strong you are, how many bags you have etc. What if a group of young lads are stood around the machine? They might not even be consciously doing anything wrong, but some people will find that intimidating. You'd be opening a whole range of possible arguments/defences for fare dodgers AND creating complications for honest customers who want to pay!

 

[Greenback]

Although it seems like a good idea oin the surfaceI think there are too many obstacles to this. We have the vandalism aspect, the crowded trains, and the difficulty in finding a suitable location for starters.

The only way I can see it working is on quiet rural routes, which are really the sort of places where machiens wouldn't be needed anyway.

 

[jon0844]

Why is it things that work well elsewhere can't here?

I can remember when Burger King tried offering free refills for drinks, like they do in many other countries. You suddenly had people buying the smallest cup and going up a million times, then people coming off the street and filling up their own containers!!

Now, in the US, people simply bought a larger cup if they were thirsty as they realised it wasn't worth the hassle of going up twenty times to refill when you could go up just once or twice more.

Why do we abuse things that would make our life easier? Is this the British way?!

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I'm afraid it's the modern British way. We seem to have become a nation who wants something for nothing all the time. Also, from being a nation wher epeople hardly ever complained about anything, we now love making complaints in the hope of getting compensation of some sort.

I blame 'That's Life' for starting it all!

 

[jon0844]

I knew those rude shaped vegetables would one day come back to haunt us.

So true though. Now we have to cater for the lowest common denominator - which is pretty low these days!

 

[142094]

people used to stuff paper up the chute and collect the coins after a period of time. Was it also possible to rock the old machines?

Might have been but can't remember. Saw them taking one of the old machines out at Wallsend and they looked like they were bolted down onto the platform - very solid.