Northern Penalty Fare Advice

[systeel]

Hi all,

I have been issued a fixed penalty fare notice and written up an appeal, and am just looking for advice on whether I could avoid the charge by tweaking this or adding any further information.

I accidentally boarded a train without a ticket as I had done what I needed to to complete the purchase but it had not gone through due to signal issues at the station (Menston, platform 2), which I didn't realise until I opened my phone to produce the ticket. The inspector saw the payment loading screen and then saw it go back to the purchase order screen, so he was aware that it was a technical error, but still had to issue me a notice as this is the policy / body cam was on. He encouraged me not to pay it though, and to submit an appeal.

I have written up the following appeal:

"While waiting for my train to Leeds at the Menston train station Platform 2 from 17:15 to 17:23, I attempted to buy a train ticket to Leeds several times, and the Trainline application was lagging due to the poor signal at the station platform. Once I was able to open the app and choose my journey then go through PayPal to purchase the ticket, I pressed continue to review order and put my phone in my bag under the impression that I had purchased a ticket, and boarded the train at 17:23.

When the member of staff approached me at 17:24 I opened my phone to produce the ticket, but due to the poor signal at the station platform the payment had not worked and the page redirected me back to the PayPal payment screen. I was showing the member of staff my screen during this time, and he saw that I had done what I needed to to buy a ticket before boarding but that it had not worked. I explained this to the member of staff and told him that I could press confirm order again, as we had left the station and the signal was improving.

The member of staff explained to me that I needed to take a screenshot of my screen to mark the time, and that because I was not successful in purchasing my ticket he had to issue me a fixed penalty notice, but that I could appeal this by submitting a detailed account of the events. He explained the process to me for appealing the notice and let me know that I had 21 days to do so. I cooperated with signing the notice, thanked him for his help, and purchased a ticket in order to get through the barriers upon arrival at Leeds at 17:41.

I have never travelled without a valid ticket prior and I would like to appeal this notice on the basis that I boarded the train without knowing that I was not holding a valid ticket, went to produce my ticket immediately, and that the member of staff witnessed the technical error which prevented me from doing so. I am uploading the screenshot marking time, as well as the ticket I bought once boarded."

I would appreciate any help!

 

[Watershed]

Hello and welcome to the forum. For us to provide the best possible assistance, it would be useful to get a redacted copy of the Penalty Fare you were issued with.

Unfortunately you committed an offence under Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws by failing to have a valid ticket when boarding the train. There is a ticket office as well as a ticket machine at Menston, either of which you were legally obliged to use if you couldn't get the mobile purchase to work. Only if both those facilities were unavailable (e.g. the ticket office was closed that day, and the ticket machine was out of order) could you buy your ticket onboard the train.

As you were unable to show a valid ticket when the inspector came through the train, they were also (in principle) correct to issue you with a Penalty Fare - this is one option for regularising your offence under the Byelaws. Being mid-way through the purchase process in an app isn't considered sufficient - the Penalty Fare Regulations require you to produce a valid ticket as soon as you're asked.

There are quite a lot of "pay when challenged" passengers that will put a ticket into the basket on an app, which they try to quickly buy when they see an inspector approaching. If it weren't for the inspector, they wouldn't buy a ticket at all, or they'd buy one from the closest station to wherever they're going (if it has barriers). Obviously I'm not suggesting that you were dodging the fare, but it's very difficult to tell the two scenarios apart and this is why the Regulations are written the way that they are.

The only valid grounds for appeal in such cases would tend to be if the Penalty Fare had been issued incorrectly (e.g. for the wrong fare, or with incorrect journey details/reason), or on the basis of deficient signage at your starting station. There is an example of a signage-based appeal here (see posts #66 and #80). Now, I haven't got on or off a train at Menston (let alone recently) so I couldn't say whether or not the signage complies with the Regulations - but I know that the signage at a lot of stations across the country is either plain non-compliant (e.g. in its wording) or isn't placed "prominently" at every station entrance, as the Regulations require.

Hope that helps!

 

[Haywain]

I have been issued a fixed penalty fare notice and written up an appeal, and am just looking for advice on whether I could avoid the charge by tweaking this or adding any further information.

Was this a Penalty Fare Notice issue to you at the time or something received in the post referring to a Fixed Penalty? Either way, can you post a copy of the paperwork you have received with you personal details redacted.

 

[systeel]

Some additional information - I was charged a penalty fare of £105.70, £55.70 if paid in the next 21 days. I have a 16-25 rail card, so the price of a single for the journey would have been £3.75, but without my discount would have been £5.70. I am uploading copies of the fare notice here:

 

[Watershed]

Some additional information - I was charged a penalty fare of £105.70, £55.70 if paid in the next 21 days. I have a 16-25 rail card, so the price of a single for the journey would have been £3.75, but without my discount would have been £5.70. I am uploading copies of the fare notice here:

Thanks for uploading that. The PF does seem to have been correctly issued on its face; Railcard discounts aren't taken into account when determining the single fare to which £50/100 is added. £5.70 is indeed the Anytime Day Single fare from Menston to Leeds (Advance tickets are often available until 10 mins before departure, but these aren't considered either).

If you hadn't yet reached Guiseley by the time you were checked, you should have been given the option of only having the PF issued to there, and then buying a new, separate ticket from Guiseley to Leeds. If this option wasn't mentioned, it should have been and that could be possible grounds for appeal. Nonetheless, any signage argument is likely to be the strongest ground of appeal.

 

[systeel]

Was this a Penalty Fare Notice issue to you at the time or something received in the post referring to a Fixed Penalty? Either way, can you post a copy of the paperwork you have received with you personal details redacted.

It was issued to me at the time, which was yesterday, and I'm in the process of writing up the appeal now I have uploaded copies.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2025 ==

Thanks for uploading that. The PF does seem to have been correctly issued on its face; Railcard discounts aren't taken into account when determining the single fare to which £50/100 is added. £5.70 is indeed the Anytime Day Single fare from Menston to Leeds (Advance tickets are often available until 10 mins before departure, but these aren't considered either).

If you hadn't yet reached Guiseley by the time you were checked, you should have been given the option of only having the PF issued to there, and then buying a new, separate ticket from Guiseley to Leeds. If this option wasn't mentioned, it should have been and that could be possible grounds for appeal. Nonetheless, any signage argument is likely to be the strongest ground of appeal.

Thank you for your reply - I hadn't reached Guiseley yet and that was not mentioned to me, I will look into appealing on the basis of of this and potentially signage.