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Intercity trains to Blackfriars (London)

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generalnerd

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I was just wondering about the theoretical idea for trains coming in from the east coast mainline to use the Thameslink core section (skipping stations in the process) to take passengers direct to the heart of London. Obviously this wouldn’t be in use on all services but I would like other opinions on the idea.
 
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Class15

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I was just wondering about the theoretical idea for trains coming in from the east coast mainline to use the Thameslink core section (skipping stations in the process) to take passengers direct to the heart of London. Obviously this wouldn’t be in use on all services but I would like other opinions on the idea.
There is zero point skipping stations as you will just catch the previous train up.
 

SynthD

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It would take up a slot, waiting behind stopping trains, and need to go onto somewhere else to turn around. Kings Cross is central enough, and Blackfriars is further south than many want to go. Where does the passenger demand come from?
 

generalnerd

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It would take up a slot, waiting behind stopping trains, and need to go onto somewhere else to turn around. Kings Cross is central enough, and Blackfriars is further south than many want to go. Where does the passenger demand come from?
That is true. I had assumed that maybe some passengers would want to head directly into the city but I do see it probably wouldn’t work. My main idea was maybe for a few PNER services a day but I guess that wouldn’t work particularly well.
 

JonathanH

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My main idea was maybe for a few PNER services a day but I guess that wouldn’t work particularly well.
The great thing about the London terminal stations, at least in theory, is that people have time to wait, and board trains, without being rushed. That isn't the same for commuter trains, where passengers don't tend to have the same needs.
 

generalnerd

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The great thing about the London terminal stations, at least in theory, is that people have time to wait, and board trains, without being rushed. That isn't the same for commuter trains, where passengers don't tend to have the same needs.
yeah. I should have mentioned more that they would maybe add an extra platform at Blackfriars, I should have mentioned that in the post. Still probably not a great idea.
 

Class15

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yeah. I should have mentioned more that they would maybe add an extra platform at Blackfriars, I should have mentioned that in the post. Still probably not a great idea.
Yeah, with the current layout you can’t turn round from the north at Blackfriars (unless you use the bi-di, blocking the line in the other direction and causing chaos), and a new platform wouldn’t be easy…
 

generalnerd

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Yeah, with the current layout you can’t turn round from the north at Blackfriars (unless you use the bi-di, blocking the line in the other direction and causing chaos), and a new platform wouldn’t be easy…
Yeah, its probably best left with Thameslink trains only.
 

swt_passenger

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yeah. I should have mentioned more that they would maybe add an extra platform at Blackfriars, I should have mentioned that in the post. Still probably not a great idea.
You’ve also forgotten, (or overlooked), that there’s no overhead power past City Thameslink, so your proposed trains cannot actually get to Blackfriars. (I’m assuming nobody would seriously want to use a bimode on diesel between a couple of stations a few hundred yards apart.)
 

JonathanH

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I’m assuming nobody would seriously want to use a bimode on diesel between a couple of stations a few hundred yards apart.
Would be interesting to see what it would make of the incline though.

I was going to make a similar point about equipping trains with third rail capability just to travel between City Thameslink and Blackfriars.

The alternative, of course, is for 700s to run long distance on the East Coast Main Line instead of Azumas.
 

Magdalia

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Two more issues that make this suggestion impractical.

Would be interesting to see what it would make of the incline though.
This is one of them - I think City Thameslink-Blackfriars is about 1 in 30?

The other issue is dwell times and reoccupation times in the core, which are very tight to deliver trains every 2½-3 minutes. Class 700s are designed for that, Azumas are not.

More generally, the Thameslink service is already too complicated which impacts on resilience. It is bad enough having Peterborough trains in the core without making it worse by adding long distance ECML trains.
 

ClivePage

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Yes, there are lots of reasons why this idea would be very difficult to implement. But it would be pretty useful to have inter-city trains just going as far as Farringdon, since there is there an easy interchange there with the Elizabeth Line with its direct services to Heathrow, not to mention a much shorter walk to connect to Circle/Met/Hamm trains. But that would require some place to turn a train around in that area. There are some sidings just south of Farringdon, but using those might not be feasible.
 

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Sounds great in theory but just imagine the dwell time needed for passengers to board and alight at Farringdon, with luggage etc. It would ruin the timetable and that's before other operational reasons are mentioned.
 

ShadowKnight

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This topic reminds me of an extremely speculative idea I had a while ago of a south coast/channel tunnel sleeper passing through the Thameslink core calling at somewhere like Blackfriars before heading north to destinations unknown.

I wonder if cross London intercity or sleepers ever were a thing in the past?
 

Indigo Soup

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That is true. I had assumed that maybe some passengers would want to head directly into the city but I do see it probably wouldn’t work. My main idea was maybe for a few PNER services a day but I guess that wouldn’t work particularly well.
Not quite the same thing, but back in the dim and distant past the LNWR ran a 'City to City' service from Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Coventry into Broad Street. IIRC there was even an on-train secretary provided at one point so that passengers could work while they travelled.
 

NSE

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Wouldn’t work for reasons stated above. Clearing pax out the train at a core station to terminate would take too long. You could run it down to somewhere like Elephant and Castle but I don’t think there’s room to turn a full LNER service there and 80x stock probably isn’t cleared. A big old faff for not much gain.

I’m not saying it’s worth it, but a more realistic option would be to have a couple of peak TL’s start back at Grantham, Corby or Kings Lynn, maybe even Leicester in future when the wires are up. That way the demand is catered for by TL stock which can still cover the core requirements. I don’t think it’s worth the hassle and cost mind, but that would be the only realistic way of getting a service to the core from further stations.
 

Jim Jehosofat

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No need to go the Elephant, just go around the corner and terminate at Cannon Street, in the heart of the City of London.
 

43066

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I was just wondering about the theoretical idea for trains coming in from the east coast mainline to use the Thameslink core section (skipping stations in the process) to take passengers direct to the heart of London. Obviously this wouldn’t be in use on all services but I would like other opinions on the idea.

Generally not feasible for LNER trains for the reasons noted above. There are some journeys where you can achieve almost the same thing by changing to/from fast TL services at Stevenage, avoiding the more awkward (but still fairly straightforward) interchange at Kings Cross/St P.
 

whoosh

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Think you need 20m long coaches maximum, because of the curves, so LNER stock would be ruled out.
The route also includes the steepest gradients in the country I believe, so would need a good power to weight ratio.

Really, if anyone wants a nice easy journey to Central London or beyond, they need to get off their Intercity at Stevenage and then catch a Thameslink from there.
 

generalnerd

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Would be interesting to see what it would make of the incline though.

I was going to make a similar point about equipping trains with third rail capability just to travel between City Thameslink and Blackfriars.

The alternative, of course, is for 700s to run long distance on the East Coast Main Line instead of Azumas.
With the way it gets sometimes I wouldn’t mind that!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Not quite the same thing, but back in the dim and distant past the LNWR ran a 'City to City' service from Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Coventry into Broad Street. IIRC there was even an on-train secretary provided at one point so that passengers could work while they travelled.
Ooh, that sounds interesting? Do you know anywhere I might be able to find information on that.
 

Indigo Soup

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Ooh, that sounds interesting? Do you know anywhere I might be able to find information on that.
A little from David Turner here on the typist service:

The typist doesn't seem to have lasted terribly long. The train itself was one of the lesser casualties of WW1.
 

generalnerd

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A little from David Turner here on the typist service:

The typist doesn't seem to have lasted terribly long. The train itself was one of the lesser casualties of WW1.
A very interesting read. Thank you!
 

brad465

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Yes, there are lots of reasons why this idea would be very difficult to implement. But it would be pretty useful to have inter-city trains just going as far as Farringdon, since there is there an easy interchange there with the Elizabeth Line with its direct services to Heathrow, not to mention a much shorter walk to connect to Circle/Met/Hamm trains. But that would require some place to turn a train around in that area. There are some sidings just south of Farringdon, but using those might not be feasible.
Yes the problem with those sidings is a train from the north would have to reverse in City Thameslink to access/depart from them. Even if this were not an issue there is also the problem that an Intercity service needs time to be checked clear before going into a turnback siding, time which doesn't exist in the core. If Farringdon had at least 1 additional platform this would be addressed, but there is of course no room for this.
 

Class15

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Yes the problem with those sidings is a train from the north would have to reverse in City Thameslink to access/depart from them. Even if this were not an issue there is also the problem that an Intercity service needs time to be checked clear before going into a turnback siding, time which doesn't exist in the core. If Farringdon had at least 1 additional platform this would be addressed, but there is of course no room for this.
If only someone had constructed two main-line tracks from Farringdon to say, Moorgate, next to the Metropolitan line tracks, to allow trains from St Pancras to go there!

Oh wait…
 

cle

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I did used to love the Moorgate service.... but 12 car services are more important, I guess!

Silly aside.... but could a 5 car Azuma fit into Moorgate via H&I? platforms and ceiling...
 

brad465

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If only someone had constructed two main-line tracks from Farringdon to say, Moorgate, next to the Metropolitan line tracks, to allow trains from St Pancras to go there!

Oh wait…
Good point, however I think as well as the platform length issue, the core would struggle even more if a flat junction that retained use existed there.
 

Russel

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Considering how frequent Thameslink is, add into that the Underground and now Liz line... I have one question regarding this idea...

Why??
 
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