GB Rail Sale has highlighted how unaffordable many fares are

[Tetragon213]

Loadings is the wrong metric. Switzerland is the model that we should be judging ourselves against; not artificially suppressing demand.

Public transport usage in the UK is poor compared to Switzerland.

The harsh reality is that most of the population do think rail fares are too expensive and choose not to travel by train, even for journeys where rail isn't too inconvenient. There are some flows that are exceptions, where rail is dominant, but they are very much the exception than the normal.

Generally speaking, I'd say there is a correlation between people who appear to suggest that rail fares aren't poor value, and those who are holders of passes, PRIVs etc. Many of those in the latter category do not think the former; I'm sure most don't, but the correlation I see is that many of those in the former category happen to be also in the latter.

It's not just "thinking" rail fares are too expensive, they are flat out too expensive. And this is coming from someone who is blessed enough to still hold a 26-30 railcard.

Only a few days ago I was looking through various journeys that I wanted to make within the next 3 months, and not a single time did I find a "sale" ticket (even with a 26-30 railcard) where the price was anywhere close to being not as expensive as driving. Not to mention slower, as it takes me at least 30 minutes to get to New Street Station from where I live. Company policy for work-related travel (and I travel a lot for work) often demands we travel by train, even when it would be more convenient and less expensive to simply drive. I look at the invoices that appear in my inbox attached to the tickets, and I just despair.

If the rail journey is slower and more expensive, why would Johnny Average ever bother with the train?

 

[Killingworth]

I've been highly critical of CrossCountry in recent times but I've been amused to be able to buy a pair of railcard return tickets from Sheffield to Newcastle for £50 - cheaper than I was quoted in the Rail Sale.

2 changes coming back using LNER and TPE via York and Doncaster reinforcing the points about complexity of ticketing. It's off putting for anyone who rarely uses trains.

 

[Northerngirl]

I've managed to get a good few journeys booked for alright prices, despite the pathetic restrictions on this 'sale', all but one of them I'd regularly not even consider at the prices they charge, there's flights to Ireland for less than the train between most big cities in the uk.

 

[xotGD]

All these people buying tickets for journeys they weren't previously planning to take, thinking that they are saving money.

 

[Killingworth]

All these people buying tickets for journeys they weren't previously planning to take, thinking that they are saving money.

I was already planning the journey I booked today and had expected to be paying more so I am saving money. Not sure that's helping the finances of the railway but it's helping mine.

 

[Sonic1234]

That is often argued, but the reality is that insurance, MOT costs etc. are already 'sunk' costs at the start of each year. No one takes those into account in reality when six months later they are deciding whether to go by car or train.

Costs that are quickly forgotten. Yes, some people will keep meticulous records and spreadsheets, but a lot will pay them (because they need their car, or believe they do) and forget them. I doubt many people, even amongst those interested in transport, could accurately price a car journey.

There's a lot of people who need a car to access the railway.

 

[Hadders]

It's not just "thinking" rail fares are too expensive, they are flat out too expensive.

I disagree that all rail fares are too expensive.

Many rail fares are extortionately priced, an example being London to Manchester Anytime Return at £369.60
On the other hand there are some excellent value fares, the GTR priced weekend super off-peak tickets being a good example.

 

[mickey]

From the industry’s perspective, giving a discount on a journey that someone would have made anyway is a failure, not a success. In reality a forum of rail enthusiasts is generally a receptive audience, so it shouldn’t really surprise us if we’re not the main target.

In my case I bought three journeys in the sale. I shifted one planned itinerary to a different route (to Gatwick via the Downs rather than through London) to save money and have a more comfortable journey, but the other two are genuinely incremental - I made discretionary purchases that I wouldn’t otherwise have made, for days out I wouldn’t otherwise go on, purely because I found what I considered to be good-value bargains. From the TOC’s perspective this is a ‘win’ because I’ll occupy a seat that would otherwise go empty.

It’s the same in other sectors too. I used to know people who worked in revenue management at BA - for them, the number of customers booking actual sale fares is not one of their key metrics. In fact, if too many people buy them, that’s considered a failure. What they want is the ‘halo effect’ - in other words, people who were encouraged by the promotion (and related publicity) to search and book, ideally paying more than the minimum headline price by booking a busier flight (at higher fare) or paying extra for bags or hotels. Any discounted fares they did sell were effectively funded from a marketing budget, to get a promotional hit that they wouldn’t have got from a plain brand campaign.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that the OP is spot on in that these gimmicky sales, where you might be able to bag a fare where its convenient for the industry, serve as a distraction from the fact that many of are fares are too expensive.

But we don't live in Switzerland and the UK is very much biased, in transport terms, towards the private car. Politically it is increasingly difficult to change that and without it changing there is not going to be much emphasis on public transport. However, while rail fares are considered expensive - not something I am arguing against - there is a difference between expensive and unaffordable, and there are clearly a significant number who evidently do not feel that is the case.

Just because we don't live in Switzerland (or any of the other countries with vaguely sensible fares) doesn't mean that we are obliged to meekly accept the status quo.

It's up to passengers to make more of a noise so that the Establishment eventually does something.

You could make rail free, run a high frequency, high capacity, punctual, reliable service and many millions would still use their cars.

This has no bearing on the needs of many passengers who don't drive in the first place. The fact that every time there is a discussion about fares it gets drawn into modal shift, just illustrates how much everything in this country is seen through the prism of motorists.

Those of us who don't drive also need affordable fares to go about our economic business.

It absolutely is with the Halbtax, which anyone who uses it with any frequency in Switzerland will have. The full adult fares are in essence a tourist tax. The "real" fare is half the full fare.

Indeed. Switzerland has a very good system for its citizens. Here the establishment prefers to offer a nice deal to visitors whilst fleecing the population instead.

 

[Pete 1981]

As UK society breaks down and morphs into a lawless hell hole, I expect cars will become even more popular. As a female, I’ll not use trains at night that don’t have onboard staff and even then it’s unnerving, especially in certain parts of the country.

Laura x

What has that got to do with this thread, it's about the price of rail travel.

 

[Killingworth]

A healthy business will charge as much as it can to sell all it can produce, be it goods or services. Where the railway is having difficulty is getting everyone to travel between both extremities of all routes at all times of the day, every day. Fresh air transportation is inevitable but users see little of it because they aren't there, jammed into a much lower route mileage of trains that may be going the opposite way.

Attracting contra flows by short term pricing alone will have minimal impact. However, if ticketing is fine tuned there's no doubt new journey's will be attracted.

It must be over 20 years ago a friend of mine was managing a rundown city centre hotel already on 6 monthly leases after a compulsory purchase order for redevelopment. He discovered internet sales very early. Get the occupancy and room rates up. He had the best performing hotel in his group. (As long as the lifts worked, no major expenditure would be authorised.) Operating the railway is similar, but for him there was a minimum he had to charge to cover things like laundry. Charge less and he'd have to justify with pay back some other way - like a counter balancing full rate booking another day.

 

[OLJR]

I have a detailed log of my rail travel going back to 2013. It is not quite complete but it is pretty good.

In real terms (2023 £) I am paying a giant 54% increase 2013-25.

My purchase behaviour is almost always the same:

1. I buy roughly 12 weeks ahead
2. I always buy 1ST
3. I always buy Advances
4. I always travel outside of the peak times - my standard service today is the 12.30 northbound and 12.27 southbound.

The two charts below show the nominal annual average fare King's Cross to Newcastle and return that I paid. The white line with a red border is the fare net of credit card cashback.

I became eligible for a Railcard in 2017 and have adjusted fares up to always show the without-railcard price
2015 is cheap because I mainly used East Coast Rewards
2019 is more expensive because I had last minute business travel paid by someone else

 

[35B]

An additional data line would be interesting on that chart. Given @OLJR's use of Advance fares, would be to plot the growth in the relevant flexible ticket type price.

We could then draw conclusions based on data about whether the price increases are a function of operators ramping their fares, or whether there has been (as I suspect) a policy to increase the price of advance tickets.

Given the distortion introduced by measuring the cash price paid rather than the price of a ticket, it would be good to strip out the savings from using Rewards.

 

[azOOOOOma]

What has that got to do with this thread, it's about the price of rail travel.

Thank you for your input. If you read the thread you’ll notice there was a discussion about train travel and the popular of the car in the UK and pricing. I guess that is what it ‘has to do’ with this thread.

Laura x