Labour pledges to make Sunday trains as reliable as weekday services

[43066]

Sure, the rest of the week has some reliance on overtime, but it's not the same as a day (Sunday) where it is possible that 100% of shifts are reliant on overtime.

Yet Sundays have worked reliably for many years based purely on voluntary overtime (100% shifts covered isn’t as ridiculous as it sounds when there are far fewer shifts to begin with). The industrial dispute and the back pay etc. have brought things to a head recently. But there’s no reason why things shouldn’t go back to how they were.

Despite the government’s statement there are still no formal proposals to bring Sundays into the week across the board, as far as I’m aware. I’ll be staggered if they do that due to the cost, so more likely we’ll continue with largely the current arrangements plus a few tweaks.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Here in Overground land our Sunday service is the same as the off-peak and Saturday service (barring engineering works of course) and works very well! If only the rest of the country was like that…

LNR runs a standard timetable for much of its network, just starts later on a Sunday (but remarkably last trains on some bits are later than a Saturday!

 

[Russel]

Quite a depressing view point and with no evidence to base it on. The mess that was left behind may take years and years to fix but they're more likely to have a go than the other lot... who didn't bother at all.

Apart from GBR branding, what do you expect to have happened by the end of the current government?

The network is still going to be a fragmented mess requiring masses of funding just to maintain the status quo during a time when we supposedly have no money...

Depressing, yes, I agree and I'd love it if by 2029 I've been proven wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I remember back in 2009 sitting through a Network Rail business briefing where the then chief executive Ian Coucher promised a "seven day railway". A quick Google reveals the press release at the time, the words are remarkably familiar!

PASSENGERS TO GET BETTER WEEKEND AND BANK HOLIDAY TRAIN SERVICE

Information for journalists, press, bloggers and the media about Network Rail. Contact the press office to receive news, updates, press releases, videos, pictures, and factsheets, and to arrange interviews, filming and photography

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Let's be honest it's all hot air, isn't it?

 

[Deepgreen]

Well if you do engineering works during the the week then the Sunday service suddenly has a lower target to meet! All words and no means to make it happen

Exactly, but how feasible is a major increase in engineering works during the week?

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Indeed, I would rather Boris back than Starmer on current showing.

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TfW for all their faults have made some huge improvements to Sunday's in Wales and must be applauded for that. They may be short formed and very busy, but there are trains to many destinations that didn't have any Sunday service at all until recently and those that did have been improved. Its not perfect but leaps and bounds in the right direction.

Under NO circumstances!!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Exactly, but how feasible is a major increase in engineering works during the week?

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Under NO circumstances!!

The decisions starmer is making right now are costing me as middle of the road earner more than Boris ever did. I have plenty more to say on this, but this is not the thread at all.

 

[mountainpixel]

It is about time, the first train leaving Carlisle for Glasgow on a Sunday departs at 11:34. An attractive railway also needs good service on weekends. A day trip to Glasgow is very unattractive with these timetables. The same thing if you want to go for a hiking trip in the lake district. The first services run way too late.

 

[styles]

It is about time, the first train leaving Carlisle for Glasgow on a Sunday departs at 11:34. An attractive railway also needs good service on weekends. A day trip to Glasgow is very unattractive with these timetables. The same thing if you want to go for a hiking trip in the lake district. The first services run way too late.

But is their proposal actually to produce parity between Sunday and non-Sunday timetables? On some routes this would be madness. I suspect (though nobody seems to actually know) that they're referring to punctuality or cancellation rates.

 

[mountainpixel]

But is their proposal actually to produce parity between Sunday and non-Sunday timetables? On some routes this would be madness. I suspect (though nobody seems to actually know) that they're referring to punctuality or cancellation rates.

I have probably been carried away reading all these comments. You're right, it does not seem to be about service frequency but just about reliability.

In my opinion, trains should have the exact same timetable on every day. With some additional services on busy weekdays. This is an important step in making trains more attractive.

 

[infobleep]

LNR runs a standard timetable for much of its network, just starts later on a Sunday (but remarkably last trains on some bits are later than a Saturday!

South Western Railway certainly doesn't.

There are only 2 trains an hour from Haslemere to London Waterloo instead of 3.

Guildford to London Waterloo via Cobham is just 1 an hour instead of 2.

Guildford to Farnham is 1 an hour instead of 2 and I could go on.....

There is one bonus though, Guildford gets 2 fast trains an hour to Clapham Junction. On Saturdays it is 1 an hour. Of course, that's just due to timetabling constraints as opposed to more people wishing to alight at Clapham Junction on a Sunday.

 

[12LDA28C]

In my opinion, trains should have the exact same timetable on every day. With some additional services on busy weekdays. This is an important step in making trains more attractive.

Really? I’d hope that train planners could match the service pattern to demand rather better than having ‘the exact same timetable on every day’. That approach also doesn’t give much scope for overnight line blocks for engineering work at weekends if you need possessions given up at 0500 on Sunday morning.

 

[bengley]

The decisions starmer is making right now are costing me as middle of the road earner more than Boris ever did. I have plenty more to say on this, but this is not the thread at all.

That's odd, as a middle of the road earner myself it's not made the slightest bit of difference!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

That's odd, as a middle of the road earner myself it's not made the slightest bit of difference!

Lucky you. I have had to deal with Labour in Wales for many years. Now we have to feap with it on a national level. The taxes they have added already may not affect you. But if you employ people, maybe already you have to employ less, thanks to putting extra NI on businesses. Changing farmers inheritance. This is just the start. Its shocking

 

[bicbasher]

Here in Overground land our Sunday service is the same as the off-peak and Saturday service (barring engineering works of course) and works very well! If only the rest of the country was like that…

Early morning services on the Windrush line between New Cross Gate and Sydenham on Sundays are 4tph (2tph to Crystal Palace/West Croydon), before it ramps up to 8tph after 0900. It used to be 4tph until midday and then the 8tph service would start.

 

[ivanhoe]

Or the statement could mean an intention to solve the Sunday issue . It’s a statement perhaps, that we are getting a lot of stick about Sunday services and let’s see if the rail unions will play ball. (Not having a go at ASLEF or RMT here)

 

[43066]

Or the statement could mean an intention to solve the Sunday issue . It’s a statement perhaps, that we are getting a lot of stick about Sunday services and let’s see if the rail unions will play ball. (Not having a go at ASLEF or RMT here)

It isn’t, because the rail unions are happy with Sundays inside. The issue is the cost. I’ve lost count of the number of times this has been pointed out.

 

[ivanhoe]

It isn’t, because the rail unions are happy with Sundays inside. The issue is the cost. I’ve lost count of the number of times this has been pointed out.

Not strictly true, is it?

 

[AF91]

It depends what is meant by "as reliable" - given that engineering works have to be done sometime, does this mean that reduced Sunday rail operations can be expected to run to their reduced timetables better, or that there will be fewer engineering works on Sundays?

Rail performance is based on the timetable on the day so increasing reliability would be looking to ensure that whatever timetable has been advertised as running, whether that be a full Sunday timetable or a reduced one, runs to the times that have been advertised.

As you say, engineering work is essential and would need to happen at some point or another. What matters though is that if the reduced timetable says you can still get from point A to point B in x amount of time, that you can actually achieve that on the day.

 

[43066]

Not strictly true, is it?

What’s not strictly true? I'm not making it up!

There was an entire thread recently on how ASLEF favour Sundays being brought inside the working week.

Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

So just paid an extra, say, 8 or 12 hours, depending on the length of the Sunday turn, at basic rate, not at say time + quarter or half? If Sundays were made part of the working week, would Drivers be prepared to accept the reduced hours at the cost of losing that additional take home pay, or...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[mountainpixel]

Really? I’d hope that train planners could match the service pattern to demand rather better than having ‘the exact same timetable on every day’. That approach also doesn’t give much scope for overnight line blocks for engineering work at weekends if you need possessions given up at 0500 on Sunday morning.

It works perfectly fine in Switzerland why should it not work in the UK?

Planing your network only by deemand has its flaws. The railway is in my opinion a public service and should thus also run on Sunday mornings. It makes the whole system more attractive. If I can not get to my destination by train on a Sunday, I also wont be taking the train back on a Monday.

Also many people work on Sundays, you just automatically default their commute to something different than the railways. They also wont be taking the train to work on a Monday if they already had to take the car on a Sunday.

 

[anthony263]

Other than Cardiff Central - Radyr via Ninian Park what other stations in Wales has recently gained a Sunday service?

Maesteg line

 

[Falcon1200]

It is about time, the first train leaving Carlisle for Glasgow on a Sunday departs at 11:34.

An issue with the WCML North is that it is used continuously from Sunday morning to Saturday night, therefore Saturday nightshift provides the only gap for maintenance.

 

[Harpo]

It isn’t, because the rail unions are happy with Sundays inside.

RMT & ASLEF could have bagged a few valuable column inches of PR with a joint response to the Government stating exactly that, together with a commitment to helping end the reliance on overtime to keep services running.

Whether the Tory press would have printed it is another issue.

 

[Manutd1999]

It isn’t, because the rail unions are happy with Sundays inside. The issue is the cost. I’ve lost count of the number of times this has been pointed out.

Not strictly true, is it?

But they are only in favour assuming the government meets their expectations regarding pay, no? They wouldn't be in favour of moving Sundays inside if there were no other changes to T&Cs...

1) Agree a new contract with the unions for GBR new joiners, which has Sundays inside as standard but offers slightly more money vs today (ignoring overtime).
2) Offer everyone moving across to GBR a one-time option to transfer to the new contract - i.e. take a bit extra money now and work Sundays or stay on your current terms and see the opportunities for overtime slowly reduce.

^ I still think this is the most viable way forward.

 

[mountainpixel]

An issue with the WCML North is that it is used continuously from Sunday morning to Saturday night, therefore Saturday nightshift provides the only gap for maintenance.

Thanks for the insight. I'm no expert on UK rail maintenance, but lines like the WCML surely allow for bidirectional running to do "under rolling wheels" maintenance?
In Switzerland usually only one track gets closed or maintenance windows are very short. For big refurbishments there are sometimes full closures, but usually only if alternative routes are available.
For me it is just odd that one of the busiest main lines in europe closes for an entire Saturday morning every week.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Most double-track routes, even main lines, in GB do NOT have bi-directional signalling.

 

[12LDA28C]

It works perfectly fine in Switzerland why should it not work in the UK?

Planing your network only by deemand has its flaws. The railway is in my opinion a public service and should thus also run on Sunday mornings. It makes the whole system more attractive. If I can not get to my destination by train on a Sunday, I also wont be taking the train back on a Monday.

Also many people work on Sundays, you just automatically default their commute to something different than the railways. They also wont be taking the train to work on a Monday if they already had to take the car on a Sunday.

What happiness Switzerland is irrelevant. I agree Sunday services should be better but you need to allow enough time overnight for engineering works to be completed unless you have a plan for rescheduling those works. Not too many people want to travel at 5am on a Sunday.

 

[43066]

But they are only in favour assuming the government meets their expectations regarding pay, no? They wouldn't be in favour of moving Sundays inside if there were no other changes to T&Cs...

Obviously they would need to be a pay rise to reflect a change to Ts and Cs, but there’s no reason why that can’t be negotiated, as it has in many TOCs. The unions have no objection in principle to Sunday working being brought in.

Unsurprisingly they won’t allow their members to be screwed over by changing Ts and Cs for nothing, if that’s what’s meant by “playing ball”. Just as most Monday to Friday employees wouldn’t be too happy of their employers suddenly required them to work weekends, or night shifts for nothing.

 

[mountainpixel]

Most double-track routes, even main lines, in GB do NOT have bi-directional signalling.

I'm surprised the trains are this "reliable" despite these constraints. Our rail network in Switzerland would probably fall apart quite fast without it.
But yes, not really possible to do on the fly maintenance without it. Especially as stations on the WCML seem quite far apart.

From another point of view, imagine overtaking a freight train in a Pendolino on the wrong track while racing through the lake district.

 

[mrcheek]

I'm amazed that nobody seems to have made the obvious comment yet.

Labour propose to make Sunday services as reliable as every other day.

Labour might actually achieve that - by making services on every other day less reliable!