Labour pledges to make Sunday trains as reliable as weekday services

[Nicholas Lewis]

Observer running a piece in advance of Heidi Alexander doing a big speech tomorrow reporting that she will say

Issuing a series of pledges on which the government will be judged by millions of passengers – as well as its political opponents – Heidi Alexander will cite the creation of a network “where Sunday services are as reliable as Monday’s” as one of her key priorities.

Doesn't explain how they will do this other than saying they will have to take on the unions and quote Mick Lynch saying

“We are ready to engage with the companies and the Department for Transport to shape the future of our railways,” he said. “This includes ensuring a fair deal for rail workers that prioritises safety, health, and work-life balance, alongside fair pay and conditions.”

The best bit was this

Ministers are also promising that passengers travelling in England will be shown how often their trains are delayed and cancelled on screens at stations.

At least its setting out a vision for the future but this is 3+ years away at best. Better they just sort out what we have today and get that reliable first.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Ministers are also promising that passengers travelling in England will be shown how often their trains are delayed and cancelled on screens at stations.

What does that even mean?

"The XX:XX Service to London usually runs late on Thursdays"

I really don't care if it ran late 12% of the time, I want to arrive on time today.

Unless it's a useful way to get a free journey or discounted journey?

 

[Retorus]

Going by their other pledges you can assume the opposite will happen, then.

 

[Horizon22]

So that relies on DfT and crucially the Treasury of stumping up the 15-20% extra pay to train crew for those where Sundays is either outside the working week or committed + an increase in drivers. Would be beneficial if it happened, but I'm not expecting anything any time soon.

 

[Deepgreen]

It depends what is meant by "as reliable" - given that engineering works have to be done sometime, does this mean that reduced Sunday rail operations can be expected to run to their reduced timetables better, or that there will be fewer engineering works on Sundays? If the latter - how? If engineering works won't happen on Sundays, perhaps they will switch to Mondays, thus giving the two days equally reliable rail services and fulfilling the pledge...

Regarding having screens displaying train service performance - please, not yet more clutter and virtually useless information to distract, get wrong, etc.

 

[Horizon22]

Better they just sort out what we have today and get that reliable first.

Until they solve the Sunday working issue (i.e bring it into the working week), it will not be possible to "sort out what we have today and get that reliable". It is a fundamental problem to which a structural change to train crew contracts so Sunday is no longer an overtime shift with additional funding to make it happen is the only available approach.

 

[Kite159]

Better break out the piggie bank to start offering a lot more cash for those operators where Sunday is currently voluntary to change their contracts. Extra cash to counteract the loss of overtime etc.

Agreed, what passengers don't want is more clutter on the screens, rather than getting annoyed as they arrive when it's page 2 of 7 when they want to confirm the calling pattern

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Going by their other pledges you can assume the opposite will happen, then.

Indeed, I would rather Boris back than Starmer on current showing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2025 ==

TfW for all their faults have made some huge improvements to Sunday's in Wales and must be applauded for that. They may be short formed and very busy, but there are trains to many destinations that didn't have any Sunday service at all until recently and those that did have been improved. Its not perfect but leaps and bounds in the right direction.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The best bit was this

Ministers are also promising that passengers travelling in England will be shown how often their trains are delayed and cancelled on screens at stations.

Northern already kind of do that, there are posters that get changed sometimes with statistics on them, I don't usually pay any attention to them.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At least its setting out a vision for the future but this is 3+ years away at best. Better they just sort out what we have today and get that reliable first.

I have no objection to ministers thinking about the future and how we'd like things to be in the future. We could do with more forward planning in this country. But from what's being reported this all sounds like the kind of vague ambition that (a) needs fleshing out, and (b) is going to be a lot harder to bring about than the Government probably thinks. But even so, it's good if they've recognised the problem of weekend services being unreliable and are thinking about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2025 ==

Northern already kind of do that, there are posters that get changed sometimes with statistics on them, I don't usually pay any attention to them.

Do the posters say what the reliability of specific trains is, or simply what the average reliability of Northern services as a whole is?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Do the posters say what the reliability of specific trains is, or simply what the average reliability of Northern services as a whole is?

I think it's services in that area as a whole.

I can't see how useful by train info would be, you could just get it on Recent Train Times and it'll otherwise just clutter up the important displays.

 

[Bertie the bus]

As a user of Northern, being promised Sunday services will be as reliable as Monday's is nothing to look forward to. If she is going to boast about things that won't happen anyway then at least claim they will be reliable and not still unreliable but a bit less unreliable than they are at the moment.

 

[Kite159]

Indeed, I would rather Boris back than Starmer on current showing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2025 ==

TfW for all their faults have made some huge improvements to Sunday's in Wales and must be applauded for that. They may be short formed and very busy, but there are trains to many destinations that didn't have any Sunday service at all until recently and those that did have been improved. Its not perfect but leaps and bounds in the right direction.

Other than Cardiff Central - Radyr via Ninian Park what other stations in Wales has recently gained a Sunday service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Better break out the piggie bank to start offering a lot more cash for those operators where Sunday is currently voluntary to change their contracts. Extra cash to counteract the loss of overtime etc.
Agreed, what passengers don't want is more clutter on the screens, rather than getting annoyed as they arrive when it's page 2 of 7 when they want to confirm the calling pattern

So is that something that WG/TfW has got right, with Sundays now in the working week?
I didn't hear of any dispute with the unions in reaching that agreement.
Why could that not apply to other TOCs?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Other than Cardiff Central - Radyr via Ninian Park what other stations in Wales has recently gained a Sunday service?

Llandudno-llandudno Junction (used to be summer only and a por service even then)
Llandudno- Blaenau Ffestiniog

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Until they solve the Sunday working issue (i.e bring it into the working week), it will not be possible to "sort out what we have today and get that reliable". It is a fundamental problem to which a structural change to train crew contracts so Sunday is no longer an overtime shift with additional funding to make it happen is the only available approach.

What i mean is match the timetable to likely available resources as Northern have done. Less than satisfactory service levels than desired but at least certainty has been restored to some degree.

 

[Horizon22]

So is that something that WG/TfW has got right, with Sundays now in the working week?
I didn't hear of any dispute with the unions in reaching that agreement.
Why could that not apply to other TOCs?

Because IIRC it was an extra 20% on driver salaries. The DfT/Treasury generally has not wanted to pay this and has traditionally been happy to rumble along with occasional Sunday cancellations and accept the really bad days a few times a year (big sporting events, Bank Holiday weekends, Christmas etc.)

There's not really any Union dispute against it, as this is ASLEF's standard position for a 7-day working week with rosters that are adjusted to match.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It depends what is meant by "as reliable" - given that engineering works have to be done sometime, does this mean that reduced Sunday rail operations can be expected to run to their reduced timetables better, or that there will be fewer engineering works on Sundays? If the latter - how? If engineering works won't happen on Sundays, perhaps they will switch to Mondays, thus giving the two days equally reliable rail services and fulfilling the pledge...

Regarding having screens displaying train service performance - please, not yet more clutter and virtually useless information to distract, get wrong, etc.

Well if you do engineering works during the the week then the Sunday service suddenly has a lower target to meet! All words and no means to make it happen

 

[Manutd1999]

Better break out the piggie bank to start offering a lot more cash for those operators where Sunday is currently voluntary to change their contracts. Extra cash to counteract the loss of overtime etc.
Agreed, what passengers don't want is more clutter on the screens, rather than getting annoyed as they arrive when it's page 2 of 7 when they want to confirm the calling pattern

The best opportunity may be to introduce mandatory Sunday working as part of a new contract for new joiners once GBR is setup? It would however take a long time to have an effect, as existing employees will likely be TUPE'd across on their current terms.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The best opportunity may be to introduce mandatory Sunday working as part of a new contract for new joiners once GBR is setup? It would however take a long time to have an effect, as existing employees will likely be TUPE'd across on their current terms.

This is common sense, the railway sadly seems to be a law unto itself.

 

[devon_belle]

I hope this applies to routes with no Sunday service!

 

[Class15]

Here in Overground land our Sunday service is the same as the off-peak and Saturday service (barring engineering works of course) and works very well! If only the rest of the country was like that…

 

[Russel]

What is the point in making statements like this, we all know that in 5 years time, things will be little changed to how they are now... other than a few GBR logos dotted around the network.

 

[Horizon22]

The best opportunity may be to introduce mandatory Sunday working as part of a new contract for new joiners once GBR is setup? It would however take a long time to have an effect, as existing employees will likely be TUPE'd across on their current terms.

This in place at certain places, for example GWR. But as you say it is incredibly slow to await retirees and reach a tipping point of more people within the working week than without.

 

[43066]

It is a fundamental problem to which a structural change to train crew contracts so Sunday is no longer an overtime shift with additional funding to make it happen is the only available approach.

Another available approach would be to stick with the current arrangements, but improve incentives to encourage more volunteers. That would likely still be cheaper than bringing Sundays inside.

But as you say it is incredibly slow to await retirees and reach a tipping point of more people within the working week than without.

Not the case if existing staff are also offered to chance to bring Sundays inside. Many will accept it, based on my TOCs experience, so you’ll rapidly end up with a majority who have Sundays inside.

 

[Horizon22]

Not the case if existing staff are also offered to chance to bring Sundays inside. Many will accept it, based on my TOCs experience, so you’ll rapidly end up with a majority who have Sundays inside.

I meant the approach of "new starters, new T&Cs". Yes if there's a ballot to bring everyone into a Sundays inside roster/contract in one swoop, I reckon it will pass by a comfortable majority.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2025 ==

Another available approach would be to stick with the current arrangements, but improve incentives to encourage more volunteers. That would likely still be cheaper than bringing Sundays inside.

Still has volatility and uncertainty attached. Sometimes you can offer £££ but you will still never get all the people you need (such as in the times of the year I mentioned above).

 

[43066]

I meant the approach of "new starters, new T&Cs". Yes if there's a ballot to bring everyone into a Sundays inside roster/contract in one swoop, I reckon it will pass by a comfortable majority.

Best to offer it to everyone. Those who don’t wish to bring them in can retain them outside - much more likely to pass the ballot that way, and it’ll only be a small minority.

Only bringing it for new joiners would indeed take years to filter through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2025 ==

Still has volatility and uncertainty attached. Sometimes you can offer £££ but you will still never get all the people you need (such as in the times of the year I mentioned above).

If you pay enough you’ll get people - I don’t really see why it should be any worse than other days of the week which also rely heavily on overtime. Even where Sundays are inside, far fewer drivers are rostered to work on Sunday, so you don’t need that many to run the booked service.

 

[Horizon22]

If you pay enough you’ll get people - I don’t really see why it should be any worse than other days of the week which also rely heavily on overtime. Even where Sundays are inside, far fewer drivers are rostered to work on Sunday, so you don’t need that many to run the booked service.

Sure, the rest of the week has some reliance on overtime, but it's not the same as a day (Sunday) where it is possible that 100% of shifts are reliant on overtime.

 

[73001]

What is the point in making statements like this, we all know that in 5 years time, things will be little changed to how they are now... other than a few GBR logos dotted around the network.

Quite a depressing view point and with no evidence to base it on. The mess that was left behind may take years and years to fix but they're more likely to have a go than the other lot... who didn't bother at all.

 

[Manutd1999]

I meant the approach of "new starters, new T&Cs". Yes if there's a ballot to bring everyone into a Sundays inside roster/contract in one swoop, I reckon it will pass by a comfortable majority.

Agree a new contract with the unions for new starters, which has Sundays inside as standard but offers slightly better conditions (minus overtime) than today. Then offer everyone moving across to GBR the option to transfer to the new contract.

Make it a one-off choice and quite a few would probably accept, as the alternative is watching their overtime dwindle to zero as more and more new recuits come onboard.