Manchester 13/14 Shoutiness Spreading across the Pennines

[Kite159]

I got bellowed at at Wigan North Western a couple of years ago as I dared to walk the 'wrong' side of the yellow line to avoid some pushchairs which had congregated at a narrow point.

One day they're going to shout at the wrong person and they're not going to like the outcome.

Especially if there is no risk of a train appearing at speed due to the signal at the end of the platform being at danger because another train has only just departed and that person is trying to clear a busy platform

 

[Russel]

Nowhere near as much of a problem on the Tube where the yellow line is about 20cm back from the platform edge at the most and trains accelerate out of the station at max velocity with people walking by with their shoulders no more than a couple inches away.

I fully agree with this, some of these shouty people on the mainline would have a breakdown if they had to spend some time on a crowded tube platform...

 

[MrJeeves]

At the end of the day, surely the appropriate choice if the platform is too crowded is for any departing train to exit the station slowly in order to reduce risk?

 

[43066]

I got bellowed at at Wigan North Western a couple of years ago as I dared to walk the 'wrong' side of the yellow line to avoid some pushchairs which had congregated at a narrow point.

One day they're going to shout at the wrong person and they're not going to like the outcome.

Why not ask them to move? Personally I will not risk my safety by walking right up to the edge of platform just because someone is blocking the way.

Especially if there is no risk of a train appearing at speed due to the signal at the end of the platform being at danger because another train has only just departed and that person is trying to clear a busy platform

Passengers cannot be assumed to know what signals mean, though.

 

[Bertie the bus]

One day they're going to shout at the wrong person and they're not going to like the outcome.

Definitely.

I’ve not found Manchester Piccadilly too bad in recent years. They still police the red line but usually in a civilised manner.

When it was first introduced I didn’t know what the red line was for and ignored it. Cue lots of shouting, which I ignored. He then started pacing down the platform shouting as he went. When he reached me I told him I didn’t appreciate being shouted at by random people to which he replied get behind the red line or I’ll get the police to throw you off the station. Go on then was my reply and I then received a threat of violence. I knew he wasn’t going to carry through his threat so I ignored that too but a man standing close to me was quite shocked and told him to wind his neck in.

I recall reading that Network Rail got so many complaints about the people they employed to police the line they took some action, and as I said I don’t find it that an unpleasant station any more. Various Avanti WCML stations are far worse.

 

[Jimini]

Various Avanti WCML stations are far worse.

Indeed. From personal experience, Coventry is a classic example of this (not aimed at me, I should add).

 

[800001]

Indeed. From personal experience, Coventry is a classic example of this (not aimed at me, I should add).

Yet. Surprisingly I was a Crewe for several hours a few weeks ago, and never heard the shouting, never heard anything said on the roving microphone like I previously did.
Plat 5 and 6 people walking down platform over yellow line with staff around including when trains were in the vicinity.
Maybe just a one off, but certainly noticed the difference.

 

[cin88]

I've mentioned this a few times already. I was an announcer at Piccadilly when they brought in the "shouty people" from an agency, quite a few of whom were already regularly brought in to cover customer care/security shortages, after my colleagues and I raised safety concerns during the absolute disaster that was the May 2018 timetable change. It really could be harrowing viewing being the eye in the sky for those platforms, especially during the height of the chaos.

To be honest, I seemed to spend an awful lot of time reporting them for getting too close to the edge of the platform/straight up not paying attention to their surroundings!

The then regional manager for managed stations was also rather unhappy one day, when she came across a group of them clearly shirking their duties and was met with "who the [expletive] do you think you are then?" when she challenged them on not being where they were supposed to be. The agency was informed rather robustly that that entire team was not to return in any capacity.

From what I understand though, they replaced most of the agency staff with full time Network Rail staff, which they were already starting to do right as I was leaving. For what its worth, I was always opposed to anyone other than announcers/shift managers being given the roving mics, unfortunately my comments on the matter were dismissed as me moaning

 

[trainophile]

Some Man Picc gate staff seem to have an attitude problem verging on the aggressive. I wonder if they rotate their duties with platform management. The other day I showed my ticket when exiting from one of the terminus platforms, firstly I was shouted at for trying to leave through the "wrong" gate, and then despite showing a perfectly valid ticket I was asked for my railcard as well. I know this is a requirement when asked by an authorised person, but on exiting a station? The only other time this has happened was at... Blackpool North, surprise surprise.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I've mentioned this a few times already. I was an announcer at Piccadilly when they brought in the "shouty people" from an agency, quite a few of whom were already regularly brought in to cover customer care/security shortages, after my colleagues and I raised safety concerns during the absolute disaster that was the May 2018 timetable change. It really could be harrowing viewing being the eye in the sky for those platforms, especially during the height of the chaos.

That is truly disgraceful. Instead of resolving dangerous overcrowding caused by a totally chaotic service by making the service less chaotic people were employed to make passenger's lives even more miserable by not just being stuck at the station through no fault of their own but also being aggressively shouted at.

 

[cin88]

That is truly disgraceful. Instead of resolving dangerous overcrowding caused by a totally chaotic service by making the service less chaotic people were employed to make passenger's lives even more miserable by not just being stuck at the station through no fault of their own but also being aggressively shouted at.

Yeah it wasn't a popular move with my colleagues and I either. As I said in my post, I seemed to spend an awful lot of time reporting the shouty agency people.

Outside of my generic "passengers are advised to remain behind the yellow line to allow passengers to alight before attempting to board" line at the end of every train announcement on 14, I think I only made 3 "can [description of passenger] please stand behind the yellow line" announcements. All three times it was because the shouty mob weren't paying attention. Suffice to say I didn't really see the value in having them down there.

To be perfectly honest, I feel sorry for the travelling public for having to listen to my never ending stream of manual announcements made in an effort to keep the flow of correct information going and the microphone shouters off the airwaves. Brittney (our nickname for the auto announcer) simply couldn't keep up and I categorically refused to allow incorrect information to go out. The situation was bad enough without having to add confusion about what was rolling into the platform into the mix, especially with that lot shouting at people for daring to be 0.000001mm over the line.

To get back on topic, I myself have noticed an increase in aggressive shoutyness on stations further afield. I'm not a fan, to put it politely. There's ways to go about this stuff without resorting to screaming at people, a former manager of mine used to say "you've lost the moment you resort to shouting at them". The industry's reputation is already pretty bad with a fed up travelling public, no need to go making it worse with confrontational nonsense.

 

[MrJeeves]

then despite showing a perfectly valid ticket I was asked for my railcard as well. I know this is a requirement when asked by an authorised person, but on exiting a station?

Was this one of the staffed but unbarriered platform entrances/exits? I'm normally Railcard-checked there at Piccadilly whether entering or exiting.

 

[Lloyds siding]

I've mentioned this a few times already. I was an announcer at Piccadilly when they brought in the "shouty people" from an agency, quite a few of whom were already regularly brought in to cover customer care/security shortages, after my colleagues and I raised safety concerns during the absolute disaster that was the May 2018 timetable change. It really could be harrowing viewing being the eye in the sky for those platforms, especially during the height of the chaos.

To be honest, I seemed to spend an awful lot of time reporting them for getting too close to the edge of the platform/straight up not paying attention to their surroundings!

The then regional manager for managed stations was also rather unhappy one day, when she came across a group of them clearly shirking their duties and was met with "who the [expletive] do you think you are then?" when she challenged them on not being where they were supposed to be. The agency was informed rather robustly that that entire team was not to return in any capacity.

From what I understand though, they replaced most of the agency staff with full time Network Rail staff, which they were already starting to do right as I was leaving. For what its worth, I was always opposed to anyone other than announcers/shift managers being given the roving mics, unfortunately my comments on the matter were dismissed as me moaning

Yes, I'd assumed that they were agency workers becasue they were unpleasant and unhelpful. I was an agency worker myself, working in Manchester into the autumn of 2018, but our ethos was that the public had to be dealt with politely and patiently.
I gave up commuting because of the May chaos, and have tended to travel from Oxford Road rather than Piccadilly, because of the 'shouty people' behaviour, when I do use the trains.

 

[43066]

Cue lots of shouting, which I ignored.

So, just to clarify, a member of staff gave you an instruction, and you ignored them?

There's ways to go about this stuff without resorting to screaming at people, a former manager of mine used to say "you've lost the moment you resort to shouting at them".

What else would you suggest, when people don’t follow the instructions they’re given? It isn’t a question of winning or losing, it’s a matter of getting people to do as they’re asked, and ultimately it’s a safety issue, hence the need to ensure compliance. Customer service doesn’t come into it.

The industry's reputation is already pretty bad with a fed up travelling public,

Is there any evidence of this you can point to? Passenger satisfaction survey results seem pretty decent.

I’d suggest the vast majority of the travelling public know the score, are sensible enough to stand well back, and as a result don’t get shouted at. Hence it’s a non-issue for most.

 

[Express380]

So, just to clarify, a member of staff gave you an instruction, and you ignored them?

I understand to a point.

Staff at some stations have such an attitude that the paying customer feels is bad service enough to ignore them as it can be received as aggressive, unnecessary and degrading.

There is a difference between an instruction and being threatened in the case of the example above and I perfectly respect the point made and would of done the same, all it takes is to change the tone sometimes.

 

[43066]

I understand to a point.

Staff at some stations have such an attitude that the paying customer feels is bad service enough to ignore them as it can be received as aggressive, unnecessary and degrading.

There is a difference between an instruction and being threatened in the case of the example above and I perfectly respect the point made and would of done the same, all it takes is to change the tone sometimes.

I do agree with that too. I’ve had some bad experiences myself at gatelines, where staff are on a power/ego trip, and of course that’s unacceptable.

I don’t think platform staff asking someone to stand behind the yellow (or red) line generally qualifies as that, though? If you’re given an instruction like that you do need to comply. By all means complain about the staff member concerned, and of course you can film the interaction if you wish.

I don’t think shouting is inherently unprofessional/inappropriate, though. The objective here is to prevent anyone being struck by a train at a platform. If you’re ever unfortunate enough to witness that, you’ll realise it’s not something to take lightly.

 

[Express380]

To be clear I agree with that too. I’ve had some bad experiences myself at gate lines, where staff are on a power/ego trip, and of course that’s unacceptable.

I don’t think platform staff asking someone to stand behind the yellow (or red) line generally qualifies as that, though? If you’re given an instruction like that you do need to comply. By all means complain about the staff member concerned, and of course you can film the interaction if you wish.

I should say the degrading comment was not necessarily meant for yellow/red line situations but rather some other customer areas of the railway. Most of the time yellow/red line issues are handled well but other rare examples are very much not. Completely agree with your points also.

 

[Bertie the bus]

So, just to clarify, a member of staff gave you an instruction, and you ignored them?

If some random idiot aggressively shouts at me then I ignore them. Whether it is a drunk on the street or some clown working on a railway station.

 

[Lampshade]

Why not ask them to move? Personally I will not risk my safety by walking right up to the edge of platform just because someone is blocking the way.

I would hardly call a shoe width step over the line to walk round a pushchair ‘risking my safety’, but each to their own.

 

[philthetube]

The post I was responding to had vanished.

 

[YoungJohnson]

If some random idiot aggressively shouts at me then I ignore them. Whether it is a drunk on the street or some clown working on a railway station.

A person working on a platform is not a "random idiot". Presumably if you get dragged under a train though, you will fully relish being chopped to pieces and support the staff being absolved of all liability?

Furthermore aside from this ignoring a police officer shouting at you, and see how far you get.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I'm (as the opening post said) not a fan of this shouting, especially because it often happens when people aren't over the line, they just happen to be near it. So rather than occasionally shouting at the odd miscreant, the staff are just constantly shouting at people who aren't in the wrong.

But linked to that, if the shouting worked, surely it's frequency would be occurring less often rather than spreading? That more people appear to be shouting more often suggests that not only is it deeply unpleasant but it is also rather ineffective.

Which, if it occurs because you're near a yellow line rather than over it, if it happens because someone else somewhere is near a yellow line and so is a relatively common noise on a train platform.... it gets tuned out.

The rarity of a staff member shouting should be a big clue that people need to pay attention. If it's every train at every station then it just becomes another annoying element of the rail experience. I'll turn up the headphones and block it out as it's just more aggressive background noise that (almost always) isn't relevant to me.

So they need to shout less - to make it more effective and noticeable. That means only when people are over the line, rather than just walking down the platform on the correct (platform-side) of the line, and potentially not even in every instance then - if no train is approaching and someone is stepping out around some electric bin wagon that's been parked across the platform or to get around someone sat on a bench, that shouldn't merit an experience similar to the start of a fight in a pub.


EDIT: One other thing is that at unstaffed stations, people generally walk behind the yellow line but they might step out around it, etc. without being shouted at. Do unstaffed stations have a significantly different accident level for passengers (unintentionally) falling off the platform compared to the shouty places?

 

[driverd]

I would hardly call a shoe width step over the line to walk round a pushchair ‘risking my safety’, but each to their own.

I think this actually underscores a lot of the deeper issue here. I would suggest 99% of railway-using people understand the risks of platform/train interface, in so far as they recognise being too close to the edge could be a fall away from death, being closer than a few feet to a moving train is undesirable and that having any limb trapped in a train is unlikely to end well. Sure, the technical understanding might be lacking, but most people see and understand the risk. As with any environment, most able bodied people who regularly use a particular station environment will have both greater risk awareness and risk perception, which inherently makes them more likely to, for instance, have a cursory glance to check no train is approaching, before quickly moving over the yellow line to navigate a pram or suitcase etc. A less regular user or vulnerable traveller may either be more risk averse or less risk aware but still take the risk.

For the regular user, being shouted at for crossing a line much further back than the standard one feels condescending and patronising, making them less likely to engage well with the shouting. This could manifest itself in disregard for the announcements (verging on actively rebeling against them), aggression towards the shouting staff/other staff members (a perfectly normal reaction to perceived aggression projected against an individual, especially when the aggression is coming from an individual representing a corporate entity) or just a disdain for the service more generally that may push users elsewhere.

For the less regular traveller, the above responses would all fall in as potentials along with the individual feeling alienated, scared or thoroughly confused by the situation.

From the railways perspective, none of the above is desirable. Yes, people may stay back from the edge a bit more, but in real terms, one individual crossing the line for a few seconds isn't much of a risk at all - it's the peripheral factors that create a risk - peripherals such as a sudden crowd arriving, people pushing on the platform or someone who isn't aware of their surroundings being in such a position of risk (eg: someone with headphones in). Shouting staff doesn't deal with any of the above and is no substitute for proper crowd management (for which, in fairness, I do think the screens that advise people to wait in the lounge at p13/14 acheive - it's just a shame the shouty people can't be used to help enforce this with ticket checks or similar).

The cynic in me suspects this whole approach derives from managers somewhere wanting to look as if they're doing something to hit a KPI, even if the something is resource intensive and not really a solution to the problem at all.

 

[xotGD]

How on earth do pedestrians manage to safely use pavements, without yellow lines and people to shout at us if we stray too close to the kerb?

 

[m0ffy]

What else would you suggest, when people don’t follow the instructions they’re given? It isn’t a question of winning or losing, it’s a matter of getting people to do as they’re asked, and ultimately it’s a safety issue, hence the need to ensure compliance. Customer service doesn’t come into it.

It is being ignored so it isn’t working and, as evidenced upthread, the instruction may be impossible to comply with.

You want compliance? Change the platform environment - add barriers, remove furniture, allow fewer passengers on the platform, provide additional platform staff to encourage passenger distribution. Dare I say it, add platform edge barriers as in Japan.

Taking safety seriously requires more than an under resourced shouty person in a hi-vis (who likely can’t be heard over the constant stream of tannoy babble and other passengers). At problematic locations, actual solutions need to be implemented.

 

[Peter0124]

Why not ask them to move? Personally I will not risk my safety by walking right up to the edge of platform just because someone is blocking the way.

Completely hypothetical but what happens if the person blocking the way refused to let you past, or if they scorned at you for asking?

 

[james_the_xv]

It's all well and good to talk on a forum about shouty station staff and have unhelpful comments like this:

One day they're going to shout at the wrong person and they're not going to like the outcome.

But has anyone considered Why they do this? The bottom line is safety at stations is the responsibility of the TOC managing/dispatching staff in question. In the event of crossing the yellow line, the distance of which has been determined by risk assessment, station staff need to have made an audible effort to warn the person(s) crossing the line. If they fail to do so in the event of an incident, at best the TOC managing ends up getting reprimanded by RAIB. At worse, criminal charges for the TOC and potentially for staff on duty at the time.

I like many have dared to walk the wrong side of the line at times, I hear staff shouting at me if they do, but I don't let it bother me, they're only looking out for themselves and my best interest at the end of the day.

N.B. Starting a verbal or physical altercation with dispatch staff is never going to be helpful in this scenario, hence why I called that particular post out.

 

[Krokodil]

EDIT: One other thing is that at unstaffed stations, people generally walk behind the yellow line but they might step out around it, etc. without being shouted at. Do unstaffed stations have a significantly different accident level for passengers (unintentionally) falling off the platform compared to the shouty places?

Unstaffed stations don't have the same crowding issues that Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 have.

 

[Steve Harris]

It's all well and good to talk on a forum about shouty station staff and have unhelpful comments like this:

I certainly wouldn't say that comment is unhelpful, in fact I would say the complete opposite, as you just have to see how many stabbings and deaths by 'one punch' reported in the media there are nowadays compared to years ago.

Staff may well have the passengers safety at heart, but there is always one who's going to take umbridge at not being 'respected' (ie aggressively shouted at).

 

[Skymonster]

Unfortunately the shouty staff (at least a couple of them) have now come to Derby, a station I previously regarded as being pretty good in terms of customer interactions. One had a good few go at me a couple of weeks back.

I pointed out that the only way I could get along the crowded and narrower part of the platform was to walk between the yellow line and the unoccupied platform edge, and he’d be more effective asking those passengers milling around and clogging the platform up to make way. He said “you could get pulled off the platform by train passing at high speed.” I reminded him that the maximum line speeds at Derby are between 25 and 40, and that if I can walk beside a dual carriageway where artics or double deck buses are motoring along at 40, with impunity, then I suspected I could walk along a platform without doing myself much in the way of serious harm.

Next he told me that he was doing it “for your safety.” I suggested that in that case he might find more job fulfilment at Duffield or Belper where the line speed is 80, Voyagers and Meridians whiz past, and kids, drunks and football supporters standing near to the platform edge genuinely scare me. Anyway after that brief interaction, with the platform still difficult to navigate due to crowding, once I’d passed him I continued down it beyond the yellow line as it was the only way to make progress. He resumed bawling at me so I shouted back “when you treat customers with respect they might take more notice.”

I see him fairly regularly now. I wave to him. I think we’ve reached a stalemate. He nolonger shouts at me although sometimes he does at others, but equally I don’t walk between the yellow line and the edge unless its the only reasonable way to move along the platform - indeed, I never have done and never will.

Realistically though I have little respect for staff who shout at customers. I suspect those who have to do the job will claim its the only way they can communicate effectively across a lengthy platform, but there’s ways and means. A clear, firm but polite “keep back from the edge please” will always have a more positive effect on me than a pseudo-aggressive, repeatedly shouted “stand back”.