Should/will Windermere be wired as part of the 2026-2036 WCML rewire?

[Bletchleyite]

add to this "and limited gradient changes". The ascent from Kendal to Oxenholme is steep (as is Plumpton to Lindal for those battery advocates of the Barrow line.

You can use regen to get that energy back. That's why people who drive in hilly areas can make good use of "self charging" hybrid cars but those who tend to drive at constant speed in flat locations will gain almost nothing from them.

Genuine question ... could a battery loco feasibly be used to drag an EMU between Oxenholme and Windermere? Or abandon through services, simply have EMU to Manxhester, and battery unit between Oxenholme and Windermere.

Battery units need to charge. Running to Manchester and back under the wires is a very convenient way to achieve that.

One of my more outlandish ideas is that instead of through services we could turn it into a tram and run it as a shuttle but including a street running section to Bowness and possibly another to Ambleside, but that's really pie in the sky even for the Speculative forum (even though were the UK Switzerland this would probably actually happen).

 

[Bald Rick]

what possible relevance is this on a single track branch line with no passing loop?

If there was an incident which required the OLE to be isolated but the track is clear (and there are many reasons for this), the service would have to be suspended. With Battery trains, the service keep running.

add to this "and limited gradient changes".

Gradients in this country have absolutely no relevance for battery trains. In fact in this case it may well help, as the Windermere end of the branch is somewhat higher than Oxenholme, if there is any trouble with the battery running short of charge (which would be very unusual), it can simply roll back to Oxenholme and the OLE.

 

[Bertie the bus]

To me, the Windermere branch is the electrification equivalent of the Skipton - Colne reopening. It seems to be an absolute obsession with some people and I really can't work out why. Some of the comments on here about it being the last few miles of a mainly electrified route make no sense. It is a largely self contained branch line with 4 trains per day to Manchester. There are also comments about how well used it is. It is in the summer but when I've travelled on it out of season there are hardly any passengers at all.

There are far better candidates for electrification than Windermere.

 

[deltic08]

Gradients in this country have absolutely no relevance for battery trains. In fact in this case it may well help, as the Windermere end of the branch is somewhat higher than Oxenholme, if there is any trouble with the battery running short of charge (which would be very unusual), it can simply roll back to Oxenholme and the OLE.

No. It wouldn't leave Windermere. It is a steep gradient out of Windermere from platform end. Then uphill from Kendal to Oxenholme. Period.

One point not mentioned so far is that about half of the Windermere branch is in the Lake District National Park. The first ever NIMBY was the Lakeland poet William Wordsworth, and he wrote this poem about 180 years ago, before the line was constructed:



There will be more OHLE, but it won't be to Windermere.

What has NIMBYism got to do with it. That was just an excuse by Grayling to cancel wiring to Windermere.

Based on that the Wigan-Bolton electrification (a much shorter distance than to Windermere) will have taken 4 years by the time trains actually start runing (green light given Sep 2021), and the fact that the 755s only took 3 years from order (August 2016) to operation (July 2019), it could well be possible that even if Windermere electrification was given the green light today, the new units would arrive and be operating first.

Yes shorter but double track so twice the piles, masts and copper wire not to mention the catenary wire. Also bridges to lift and platforms to lengthen not needed on the Windermere branch. The branch can be closed for the duration as Blackpool and Windermere a few years ago so work could continue day and night for only a few months.

 

[HSTEd]

There are far better candidates for electrification than Windermere.

The ~16 track kilometres is more or less enough to get you to Rose Hill Marple via Hyde

I'd say that would probably get you more traffic converted.

 

[MisterSheeps]

can simply roll back to Oxenholme

no, the line drops steeply from Oxenholme to Kendal (40m in 2.5km), then rises by 100m to 2km outside Windermere, then falls by 20m.

turn it into a tram and run it as a shuttle

+1 for this

 

[Russel]

One of my more outlandish ideas is that instead of through services we could turn it into a tram and run it as a shuttle

Could commission a longer version of the Stourbridge Parry People Mover... Paracetamol would be in high demand in Windermere though for the back ache after 16 miles on it!

 

[yorksrob]

Could commission a longer version of the Stourbridge Parry People Mover... Paracetamol would be in high demand in Windermere though for the back ache after 16 miles on it!

It would have to be about twelve PPM carriages long in the summer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

If we were in the 1980s and electrification was cheap, I would see the advantages of just electrifying and being done with it.

Unfortunately we don't live in that world any more, 25kV electrification is expensive now.

They don't call the 21st century "bizzarro loony world" for nothing.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I did wonder whether it would be you or @ChiefPlanner that picked me up on this, I guess the latter is having an early night!

Yes ! - probably CG or his deputy . An affordable scheme , and note -- it was done in between the am and peak peaks and at weekends , in a very cost effective manner. No total block for many weeks. Also , no independant switching - so if the branch goes down , so does the main lne. And vice versa. No extra stock neeeded either as the 313 fleet was squeezed , though often an ailing unit which was having trouble with it's AC/DC changeover , could be kept to the branch and thus minimising risk on the NLL or WLL.

NSE did similar electrification elsewhere to abolish diesel pockets , for example Romford - Upminster , saving transfers from Stratford (East)

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps more "CG wanted it to be so, and it was so". He had a lot of power!

That was the world that was, and now is no more. As much as I'd love to see more control of the railway taken out of the politicians, we are now where we are. Maybe if the new government's local administration plans come through things will be unclogged a bit, but until then...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

It would have to be about twelve PPM carriages long in the summer.

Other brands of people mover exist, of course. You'd need a higher frequency as well to get serious benefits of conversion but in the summer that'd be no bad thing. There's also a potential operational issue at Oxenholme as you'd want the vehicles to not need to meet mainline train standards, but that's a problem that's been solved in plenty of other places before.

People have mentioned the Barrow line - for me this lends itself more towards wiring at least from Carnforth to Barrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People have mentioned the Barrow line - for me this lends itself more towards wiring at least from Carnforth to Barrow.

Because of how the service pattern works (and has for years) you want to be able to work the two lines with the same rolling stock, so if one requires DMUs there's little point wiring the other one. Though I suppose the bi-modes may change that.

With the significant tourist demand you don't want to be removing through Windemere-Manchester Airport services - indeed I'd argue there aren't enough of them, the old alternating pattern every two hours was arguably better than what is there now (though when that ran the TPE Manchester didn't exist, it was just a couple of XC HSTs a day).

 

[Halifaxlad]

Im not against battery trains as I think thats the optimum solution for the Calder Valley & Halifax.

But I tend to favour electrifying the branch to Windmere for simplification.
One of the things that is generally always ommitted from the discussion is things like train planning and driver training!

How many drivers would have to be trained on battery traction and the particular class of traction that would be used on the branch should it be chosen ?

Is it worthwhile and cost effective to train X amount of drivers ?

Regarding the other matter, how many spare units will be required ?

Yes more TOCs will probably have some form of battery train or other. But you really want a network of battery operation to make it cost effective and an efficent use of resources.

 

[Class 317]

Im not against battery trains as I think thats the optimum solution for the Calder Valley & Halifax.

But I tend to favour electrifying the branch to Windmere for simplification.
One of the things that is generally always ommitted from the discussion is things like train planning and driver training!

How many drivers would have to be trained on battery traction and the particular class of traction that would be used on the branch should it be chosen ?

Is it worthwhile and cost effective to train X amount of drivers ?

Regarding the other matter, how many spare units will be required ?

Yes more TOCs will probably have some form of battery train or other. But you really want a network of battery operation to make it cost effective and an efficent use of resources.

In terms of training Northern will be introducing BEMU or trimode units as part of its fleet replacement which will have the same training requirements wherever they run the units.

 

[Halifaxlad]

In terms of training Northern will be introducing BEMU or trimode units as part of its fleet replacement which will have the same training requirements wherever they run the units.

and where will these units run ?

Regarding its fleet replacement arn't some pure electrics ?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

and where will these units run ?

Pretty much everywhere except the quiet lines far from any OLE that 195s can be cascaded too (e.g. Cumbrian Coast).

Regarding its fleet replacement arn't some pure electrics ?

Lot 1 is for pure EMUs, current expected numbersa re for phase 1 is 11 3 cars, phase 2 is 34 3 cars and 16 4 cars.

 

[30907]

Because of how the service pattern works (and has for years) you want to be able to work the two lines with the same rolling stock, so if one requires DMUs there's little point wiring the other one. Though I suppose the bi-modes may change that.

Quite (and Morecambe too).
Not least because of crewing....

But I tend to favour electrifying the branch to Windmere for simplification.
One of the things that is generally always ommitted from the discussion is things like train planning and driver training!

How many drivers would have to be trained on battery traction and the particular class of traction that would be used on the branch should it be chosen ?

Is it worthwhile and cost effective to train X amount of drivers ?

Yes. As the line is worked out of Barrow AIUI you would have to train the whole relevant link on EMUs or switch operation to Preston/Blackpool, which would need negotiation. You'd also need to find a handful of EMUs.

If you wire the whole service group, you train all the drivers and change over the whole* fleet. The same basically if you use BEMUs - all* or nothing is cost effective.

*bar North of Barrow, of course.

PS as you have mentioned it, I would consider the far busier Calder Valley a good candidate for electrification, with BEMUs over Copy Pit. But that's off topic.

 

[yorksrob]

That was the world that was, and now is no more. As much as I'd love to see more control of the railway taken out of the politicians, we are now where we are. Maybe if the new government's local administration plans come through things will be unclogged a bit, but until then...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==


Other brands of people mover exist, of course. You'd need a higher frequency as well to get serious benefits of conversion but in the summer that'd be no bad thing. There's also a potential operational issue at Oxenholme as you'd want the vehicles to not need to meet mainline train standards, but that's a problem that's been solved in plenty of other places before.

People have mentioned the Barrow line - for me this lends itself more towards wiring at least from Carnforth to Barrow.

The problem with not having the Windermere train to mainline standards is that the through trains to Manchester and Preston are very popular.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

Exactly. Having to change from 25kv to battery then back several times a day each time the Windermere branch is used is not failsafe whereas continuous 25kv is almost 100% failsafe.
It is only a few miles of single line low cost tram wire electrification not needing additional feeding stations taking 3 months at most to wire. Get on with it and convert the Manchesters to EMUs that Northern already have now costing less than a roundabout on the A1079 near Hull. (£43M)
Does anybody know the real cost of extending 25kv to Windermere?

Hear hear.

 

[AndrewE]

It is only a few miles of single line low cost tram wire electrification not needing additional feeding stations taking 3 months at most to wire. Get on with it and convert the Manchesters to EMUs that Northern already have now costing less than a roundabout on the A1079 near Hull. (£43M)
Does anybody know the real cost of extending 25kv to Windermere?

I suspect that this is such a different job to wiring (even "just" to Barrow) that it has nothing in common with the wider schemes at all.
Which is why I think they should just do it. Telegraph poles, simple brackets, single wire, no supply requirements... You could probably get most of the prep work done in between trains!

 

[zwk500]

Because of how the service pattern works (and has for years) you want to be able to work the two lines with the same rolling stock, so if one requires DMUs there's little point wiring the other one. Though I suppose the bi-modes may change that.

Indeed, although a BEMU can use wires or not as required! Having more trains able to use the OLE through castlefield would be good, no?

With the significant tourist demand you don't want to be removing through Windemere-Manchester Airport services - indeed I'd argue there aren't enough of them, the old alternating pattern every two hours was arguably better than what is there now (though when that ran the TPE Manchester didn't exist, it was just a couple of XC HSTs a day).

The problem with not having the Windermere train to mainline standards is that the through trains to Manchester and Preston are very popular.

Agree, I was just responding to a comment about how big a people mover would need to be. Keeping this line as part of the national network is a sensible course of action.

 

[yorksrob]

Agree, I was just responding to a comment about how big a people mover would need to be. Keeping this line as part of the national network is a sensible course of action.

Glad to be on the same page !

 

[Kite159]

I suspect that this is such a different job to wiring (even "just" to Barrow) that it has nothing in common with the wider schemes at all.
Which is why I think they should just do it. Telegraph poles, simple brackets, single wire, no supply requirements... You could probably get most of the prep work done in between trains!

Or do it during the winter months when usage is generally lower (less tourists) in a 2/3 month blockade with services replaced by buses etc.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that this is such a different job to wiring (even "just" to Barrow) that it has nothing in common with the wider schemes at all.
Which is why I think they should just do it. Telegraph poles, simple brackets, single wire, no supply requirements... You could probably get most of the prep work done in between trains!

Or do it during the winter months when usage is generally lower (less tourists) in a 2/3 month blockade with services replaced by buses etc.

Indeed. In terms of infrastructure, the branch is more or less a very long siding. With two trains an hour, (one each way) the infrastructure is certainly justified.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Very often a long DMU now - 6.195 is basically the same as the 8-car 20m formations you usually get around London. And there are three through services to/from Manchester a day (those are the busiest). The days of it being a 2-car are long gone, unless Northern just can't manage anything else, and if that happens people will likely be left behind.

Where do you get your information on 'very often long dmu' from?

3 cars all day https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

3 cars all day https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

only 5 trips in the middle of the day using 6 cars https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-15/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Again only 5 journeys with 6 cars https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-14/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Again only 5 journeys with 6 cars https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[yorksrob]

Where do you get your information on 'very often long dmu' from?

3 cars all day https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

3 cars all day https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

only 5 trips in the middle of the day using 6 cars https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-15/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Again only 5 journeys with 6 cars https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-14/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Again only 5 journeys with 6 cars https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...25-01-13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The fact that it has six carriage trains during the day, surely highlights that it isn't a branch line, rather, an extension of the mainline.

If it were electrified, there would be a much larger pool of trains to tun longer services throughout the day.

 

[Elecman]

The only bridge I can think off that MAY need some alterations ifs the one on the Kendal side of Staveley Level Crossing as the wire needs to rise to the maximum height for the level crossing itself, but again the relatively slow speed of the trains may mitigate the need for any alterations to comply with maximum rate of change of the contact wire.

 

[daodao]

It is desirable to reduce the amount of diesel "running under the wires" on the WCML and its principal electrified offshoots (the lines to Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester and Blackpool). With respect to the Windermere line, historically that could only have been achieved by electrifying it entirely, but with modern technology it should be possible to use an emu with a medium-sized battery capable of providing off-wire traction for 50 miles and which can be recharged from the overhead when "running under the wires". However, that will require every service to run through onto the WCML and not just operate as an Oxenholme-Windermere shuttle.

The principal question that needs to be asked is how to increase the use of electric traction and reduce that of diesel traction. Each individual non-electrified line needs to be assessed with respect to the best way to achieve this aim, whether by full electrification, or partial/no electrification but connection to a neighbouring electrified line where battery-electric multiple units can easily be recharged. For the Windermere line, I would hope that the service is not being provided by dmus such as class 195 by 2030.

The key future problem will be long lightly used rural lines that don't warrant even partial electrification and which are outwith the range of battery-electric multiple units running on their batteries alone.

 

[yorksrob]

The key future problem will be long lightly used rural lines that don't warrant even partial electrification and which are outwith the range of battery-electric multiple units running on their batteries alone.

Aren't these the ideal candidates for battery electrification ? Intermittent charging sections seem like a sensible option for such routes.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I would hope that the service is not being provided by dmus such as class 195 by 2030.

Maybe give it a couple more years, delivery of the new units is currently set for 2030 and they'll probably need some time for testing/training.
Windermere/Barrow would be a good route for some 100mph tri-modes to run, most of the time they'll just be able to use their battery and the OLE.

 

[YorksLad12]

Have been thinking about the Northern Sparks report from the Electrification Task Force, published in March 2015. It didn't even consider Windermere electrification.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Have been thinking about the Northern Sparks report from the Electrification Task Force, published in March 2015. It didn't even consider Windermere electrification.

It considered Windermere already wired, it's in the "Existing and Committed electrification" section.