Southern refusing to reimburse taxi - advice please!

[williamn]

Hi all,

Hoping I might get some advice from you all.

On 1 January I was travelling from London Bridge to Lewes via Haywards Heath. I caught the 22.39 from London Bridge, arriving Haywards Heath at 23.25. I could see from my various apps that the 23.30 train to Lewes (the last of the day) was cancelled, and as I got off at Haywards Heath platform staff made announcements advising passengers for Lewes to stay on the train to Brighton.

I travelled on to Brighton as advised but on arrival there was no alternative transport provided and scheduled buses had finished for the day. Staff advised to get a taxi and seek reimbursement from Southern customer relations.

I did this but my claim has been refused as apparently the 23.30 train was reinstated from Haywards Heath, leaving at 00.00. I have pointed out in my reply that this wasn't known at 23.25 and I followed staff advice at all times, but as this information was already in my initial email I don't hold out high hopes for a change of heart.

Southern's email to me quoted the conditions of carriage saying that reimbursement of expenses over and above the cost of a ticket are at the discretion of the operator.

If they continue to refuse this is there anything I can do?

Thanks.

 

[Watershed]

Southern can't expect you to have second-guessed their staff's instructions to stay on the train to Brighton. If it's condition 32.2 of the Conditions of Travel which Southern are referring to, this clearly states that it applies to claiming for amounts beyond what you are legally entitled to.

It's your legal entitlement to be transported to your destination, so given that Southern failed to do this and indeed advised you to make your own arrangements, they have no defence to your claim.

I'd give them another 14 days to pay up and then consider further action, i.e. the Ombudsman (if you fancy dealing with their nonsense) or a Letter Before Claim with a view to pursuing legal action.

I've no time for operators that shirk their legal obligations; I give them as much leeway as they give to ticketless passengers (i.e. none).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@williamn. That's remarkably poor. Anyone able to advise/confirm at what time(s) the Lewes train was cancelled then reinstated and what time the Brighton train left Haywards Heath in order to back up the OP.

 

[williamn]

The Brighton train left just a minute or two after it arrived, I think 23.27.

 

[WesternLancer]

@williamn. That's remarkably poor. Anyone able to advise/confirm at what time(s) the Lewes train was cancelled then reinstated and what time the Brighton train left Haywards Heath in order to back up the OP.

I’d it still viewable on realtime trains ?

 

[FuzzyDuck]

I’d it still viewable on realtime trains ?

Nope, oldest day available is 2nd.

 

[JonathanH]

I’d it still viewable on realtime trains ?

Viewable here if helpful
https://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/livetrain/X00591/01/01/25
and therefore https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:X00591/2025-01-01/detailed which shows the 0000 departure, but not how there came to be an available train to form the service.

 

[WesternLancer]

The Brighton train left just a minute or two after it arrived, I think 23.27.

As advised above I would start with the ombudsman if you have exhausted Southern complaints process.

But post a draft of your ombudsman complaint up here before sending it to them so experts here can help get the railway language’ right to increase the chances of success, as the ombudsman does not have a good reputation on this forum for being effective.

 

[Starmill]

GTR will probably give in when the Ombudsman tries to negotiate with them on this, because they'll be able to internally corroborate that the train was cancelled and not reinstated until after 2325. I would therefore hold out hope of it being relatively straightforward once you've got your ducks in a row with the Ombudsman complaint.

The downside is that you don't get any compensation for your wasted time and the hassle of multiple complaints. But unfortunately that's just the way it is. You should get your taxi bill back.

I would reply explaining you'd like to make a complaint to the Ombudsman and requesting a deadlock letter. You could politely re-state the important point that the service was displayed as cancelled at the relevant time on the screen / Southern app / wherever you saw it and you followed the alternative travel advice in accordance with that.

 

[williamn]

Southern's response. Why does this have to be so hard?! (my email underneath, which wonder if they've even read). I'll ask for a deadlock letter.

Thanks for getting back in touch. I’m sorry to hear you’re unhappy that we won’t refund your taxi.

I appreciate you had a difficult and frustrating trip. Our team worked very hard to give everyone the right information and help our customers get where they needed to be, despite the problems. So I’m sorry again you couldn’t get the help you wanted. I know this made your day even more frustrating.

If a passenger experiences disruption to their journey and is struggling to find any alternatives to make it to their destination, we advise that they either speak to a member of staff or use the station help point. From here, someone will be able to provide advice on the services still available or potentially arrange for alternative transport to the destination at no additional cost. During this period station staff may have limited information, however once there are updates further information is given to customers to let them know of their alternative options. As such, if a passenger chooses to mitigate their delay via an alternative route or additional transport that is not pre-arranged with us, we’re unable to offer a refund of these costs.

When you travel on our service, we have an obligation to try to get you to your final destination. When a customer experiences disruption, we will endeavour to provide a reasonable alternative to allow our customers to complete their journey for no additional costs. There was an alternative service running at 00:00 from Haywards Heath, which would've allowed you to complete your journey to Lewes at no extra cost.

The National Rail Conditions of Travel state:

For claims made under the industry arrangements (set out at paragraph 32.1.1 above) for losses caused by the delay and/or cancellation of a train service, you can only recover up to the price of your Ticket. However, in exceptional circumstances, a Train Company may consider claims for other losses. This will be for the Train Company to decide in its sole discretion, unlike your legal rights set out in paragraph 32.1 above.

As stated in our Passenger's Charter under section 15.0, “We do not accept liability for any losses, but we do have discretion to consider additional claims (for example, the cost of alternative travel arrangements) in exceptional circumstances”. As it would have been possible to reach the destination covered by your ticket by using later alternative services, we don't consider this an exceptional circumstance.

As we had a provided you with a reasonable alternative, we wouldn't be liable for any costs outside your ticket with us.

I know this is not the answer you were hoping for, and I’m sorry to disappoint you. I hope my email explains why we’re not reimbursing your costs. And I hope your next journey with us will go more smoothly.
My prior email:

Many thanks for your email.

I arrived at Haywards Heath at 23.25 on the 22.39 Thameslink service from London Bridge, intending to change there for the Lewes service. As I mentioned in my initial email, as I got off the train platform staff advised all passengers to reboard and travel to Brighton. I followed that advice. When I got to Brighton there was no alternative transport, and scheduled buses had stopped for the evening. Again, I followed your staff's advice to take a taxi and seek reimbursement.

If I had known the train was reinstated I would have waited at Haywards Heath, but that wasn't the information we were given at 23.25.

I had no other way of getting home from Brighton and followed information from Southern staff at both Haywards Heath and Brighton.

Given that I hope you might reconsider your decision.

 

[gray1404]

And if the Ombudsman fails you can still write to your MP and even after that issue them with a letter before action. I would be very surprised if they didn't pay up at that point as it is a contractual breach on their part.

 

[Starmill]

Sounds as though neither person actually read what you wrote before composing a reply.

 

[williamn]

Sounds as though neither person actually read what you wrote before composing a reply.

The cynic in me wonders if it’s a strategy…

 

[OneOfThe48]

you can still write to your MP

Personally I would try this @williamn as a lot of MPs have good contacts with the train companies and can talk to different people than the customer relations machine

 

[AndroidBango]

That response from Southern smacks of AI to me.

 

[Alex C.]

That response from Southern smacks of AI to me.

I'm not sure it is AI (not least because investment in customer services on the railway is practically zero) - when I worked for a TOC, there was a database of responses to queries with a number of well crafted responses drafted. The idea, and training was always that they were only to be used as a base for responses and should be tailored to individual situations - and that if none were appropriate, they shouldn't be used.

The response quoted in this thread would have been entirely appropriate in the right circumstances. The problem is that some employees would rather just find the closest match to a query and copy/paste an answer because then they don't have to think or spend the time dealing with the query but they will look just as productive (or more so) than their colleague who does take the time to consider their response.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure it is AI (not least because investment in customer services on the railway is practically zero) - when I worked for a TOC, there was a database of responses to queries with a number of well crafted responses drafted. The idea, and training was always that they were only to be used as a base for responses and should be tailored to individual situations - and that if none were appropriate, they shouldn't be used.

The response quoted in this thread would have been entirely appropriate in the right circumstances. The problem is that some employees would rather just find the closest match to a query and copy/paste an answer because then they don't have to think or spend the time dealing with the query but they will look just as productive (or more so) than their colleague who does take the time to consider their response.

Indeed. It's very difficult to capture, for the purposes of managing good performance, the difference between a top-class member of staff who's repeatedly responding to a customer who was in the wrong or is being belligerent, and a lazy one who's giving bad outcomes and hoping that the customers give up.

As you say, it would be a good quality response in the circumstances which its authors no doubt intended for it to be sent out in...

 

[AndroidBango]

I'm not sure it is AI (not least because investment in customer services on the railway is practically zero) - when I worked for a TOC, there was a database of responses to queries with a number of well crafted responses drafted. The idea, and training was always that they were only to be used as a base for responses and should be tailored to individual situations - and that if none were appropriate, they shouldn't be used.

The response quoted in this thread would have been entirely appropriate in the right circumstances. The problem is that some employees would rather just find the closest match to a query and copy/paste an answer because then they don't have to think or spend the time dealing with the query but they will look just as productive (or more so) than their colleague who does take the time to consider their response.

On reflection, I'm sure you are right. Perhaps too much time spent dealing with students having submitted AI-generated essays has me seeing it everywhere!

 

[gray1404]

The other option perhaps is a chargeback with your bank. There are a number of options at this point. A suggested order might be.

Claim delay repay if you haven't already done so
Write to Southern asking for a deadlock letter
Complain to the rail ombudsman
Complain to your MP
Issue a letter before action
Commence a chargeback through your bank

 

[Haywain]

The other option perhaps is a chargeback with your bank.

Chargeback of what? The taxi, even if paid by card, provided the service and are not liable. And the rail ticket is unlikely to come close to covering the taxi fare.

 

[williamn]

Yes they invited me to claim delay repay but the delay was 29 mins on the reinstated train so nowhere close to covering the taxi fare.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Yes they invited me to claim delay repay but the delay was 29 mins on the reinstated train so nowhere close to covering the taxi fare.

You may be doing it already but you may wish to raise the whole saga with your MP, could mean it gets a 'closer look' from people with more time than the customer relations team who might be a bit too 'computer says no'

 

[Parham Wood]

You may be doing it already but you may wish to raise the whole saga with your MP, could mean it gets a 'closer look' from people with more time than the customer relations team who might be a bit too 'computer says no'

Depends who your MP is though. Ours is Dan Norris who takes months to respond to any communication and then tows the party line to a tee in my opinion.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Depends who your MP is though. Ours is Dan Norris who takes months to respond to any communication and then tows the party line to a tee in my opinion.

Indeed, though is still worth doing while still grappling with customer service until you get your deadlock letter (is that after the third complaint?) for the ombudsman.

 

[WesternLancer]

Depends who your MP is though. Ours is Dan Norris who takes months to respond to any communication and then tows the party line to a tee in my opinion.

There won’t be a party line on this however. Just down to the efficiency of the MPs operation. You are asking them to raise a matter with a taxpayer funded public service about their service delivery. Usually called ‘casework’ by MPs as opposed to’policy’ where you might expect them to tow a party line if they were elected on a party ticket. Ie do what they said on the tin.

 

[gray1404]

Chargeback of the rail ticket but save that for now.

The delay repay should be based on the time you arrived at your destination having followed staff instructions and got a taxi, not the reinstated train arrival time.

 

[Haywain]

Chargeback of the rail ticket but save that for now.

The delay repay should be based on the time you arrived at your destination having followed staff instructions and got a taxi, not the reinstated train arrival time.

The Delay Repay is, I would have thought, of rather trivial significance at this stage.

 

[gray1404]

The Delay Repay is, I would have thought, of rather trivial significance at this stage.

The way I see it is there are two elements of this:

1. The refund for the taxi so the OP is not out of pocket AND 2. the delay repay so the OP is compensated for the delay they encountered. Both go hand in hand in my opinion.

 

[Haywain]

The way I see it is there are two elements of this:

1. The refund for the taxi so the OP is not out of pocket AND 2. the delay repay so the OP is compensated for the delay they encountered. Both go hand in hand in my opinion.

I don't disagree with that but it is important that they are processed in the right way.

 

[BazingaTribe]

I don't disagree with that but it is important that they are processed in the right way.

Yup. Chargebacks just punish the merchant or retailer for a service they provided in good faith; you're looking for compensation/reimbursement from the company responsible for the ultimate problem and it ought to go through channels that clarify and establish their responsibility in law rather than simply get the cash back.