Manchester 13/14 Shoutiness Spreading across the Pennines

[PyrahnaRanger]

Is it really that difficult to just not stand/walk behind the yellow safety line in the first instance?

Depends where you are. Carlisle P2 for instance - yes. Since they put the barrier up between P2 and P3, it's barely wide enough for a person, so I'd the first passenger stands at the closed end of the bay, then there's three doors you can't get to unless you cross the line. I'm not sure if this was intentional as part of the "dry train" initiative though.

I’ve seen similar comments to this before on here, so I don’t mean to single you out, but with all due respect, surely it’s obvious why these aren’t equivalent situations?

I'm not sure about equivalence - it depends on how you risk assess it. If the issue is a risk of people falling off the platform due to trips, falls and stumbles, I'm interested in what training reduces that risk, because as a clumsy person I'd love to attend it. That risk changes when a train is entering or leaving, as you've then for the risk of trips, falls, stumbles and crowd surges causing potential risk for someone falling and causing an incident on the platform, falling off in front of a train or hitting the side of one. That's probably a case where the mitigation of keeping the majority of people (i.e. passengers) behind the line does reduce the risks associated with the situation. In the first situation, I agree with @Bletchleyite , platform staff should really be modelling the behaviour for people to follow unless there is an overriding need for them to do otherwise such as running down a busy platform with a defib.

I think there's a big difference between watching someone walking on the "wrong" side of the yellow line and watching a suitably PPE'd person walking on the track - for example, you'd assume that they knew trains had been stopped, or that there was a large enough gap for it to be safe.

I've always wondered if it's so dangerous to cross why there isn't tactile paving for the partially sighted at the line as well, although it would need a different pattern to the one at the platform edge to avoid confusion.

 

[Viper]

One of the benefits of shouting is that there are few platform staff covering a long platform, so if somebody isn't in a position of safety, and they aren't especially close to the member of staff, efficiency would dictate shouting to increase the chance they are heard, instead of staying quiet and adding time to walk towards the person.

A lot of people I see wandering too close to the yellow line/platform edge are purely oblivious rather than being defiant. Someone shouting at you can snap you back into reality and look up to see who is shouting and why. For those who are ignorant, I would support firmer methods than shouting; perhaps tasers?

I'm not saying it's okay to shout at everyone though, there are certainly people who require a more supportive action rather than being shouted at.

 

[jfollows]

Is it really that difficult to just not stand/walk behind the yellow safety line in the first instance?

At Wilmslow there’s so much extra platform furniture on platform 3 that the bit of platform behind the yellow line is less than the bit in front of it. So, yes, it’s not automatically simple to keep behind it. Last week I apologised to the dispatcher trying to send off the train I’d just stepped off because I realised I was in his way; he also politely asked some even less aware people to move back, which they did, no need for shouting and perfectly polite.

 

[Ethano92]

Is it really that difficult to just not stand/walk behind the yellow safety line in the first instance?

Have you ever had to walk down p13+14 at Manchester Piccadilly during busy periods? One foot crossing the red line (even further in from the platform edge than the yellow line) for a couple seconds to pass the crowd and use the full length of the platform and you get aggressively shouted at. Can’t go behind people waiting because of the barriers leading to the staircase. Especially infuriating when it’s pretty obvious you’re passing by someone and before staff have even finished shouting their sentence you’ll be back on the correct side of the line.

People won’t listen to shouting as nobody wants to be spoken to like that, it just grows resentment to the staff which are then more likely to be ignored.

Nowhere near as much of a problem on the Tube where the yellow line is about 20cm back from the platform edge at the most and trains accelerate out of the station at max velocity with people walking by with their shoulders no more than a couple inches away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nowhere near as much of a problem on the Tube where the yellow line is about 20cm back from the platform edge at the most and trains accelerate out of the station at max velocity with people walking by with their shoulders no more than a couple inches away.

People who write risk assessments for the mainline would have a heart attack if they spent 10 minutes at Bank Northern Line platforms at 5:30pm on a Tuesday. People standing almost touching arriving trains, walking alongside them as they leave, drivers deliberately closing doors on people etc. Yet if they tried the mainline approach you'd get dangerous overcrowding very quickly.

 

[father_jack]

I remember being at Cardiff Central many years ago and a very late downside (P3/4) start ended up happening on a GWR local due to late inward running but all the pax still being on platform 2 and a silly dispatcher shouting at a deaf man an inch from their ear despite my encouragement pointing out their impairment.....

They recognised me as staff and reported me through a mischief maker to my manager of the time for "embarrassing" them.

Words using the phonetic alphabet "foxtrot oscar" were my only input into the manager's ridiculous investigations.

 

[Blackpool boy]

PTI is indeed a big thing, but the railway is just failing to realise that shouting is not working as a solution to having people the wrong side of the line.

What do you suggest then?

Its fine to sit on this forum and decry it but what are your solutions? And ones that probably dont cost as much as having staff on the platforms( though we know you dont like staff on platforms anyway)

 

[Bletchleyite]

What do you suggest then?

Its fine to sit on this forum and decry it but what are your solutions? And ones that probably dont cost as much as having staff on the platforms( though we know you dont like staff on platforms anyway)

Discussion on suggestions for this can take place in this speculative thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/potential-solutions-to-yellow-line-issue.280209/

I've not suggested any here because this thread isn't speculative.

 

[YoungJohnson]

At the end of the day staff are going to shout because if someone gets dragged, they get sacked / jailed. James Street / Hamiliton Square / West Wickham / Hayes and Harlington and so on show the real world consequences when staff do not crowd control platforms properly. Blunt truth is, staff won't care less about "hurting someone's feelings" if the alternative is they get dragged under and that staff member ends up in prison or the dole. Where as staff are unlikely to get any comeback whatsoever for shouting at anyone (unless it is abusive or personally insulting) - and are more likely to get praise for being observant and not tolerating any dangerous behaviour.

Making staff immune from dismissal / prosecution if someone ends up being converted to dog food, and putting ALL the liability solely on the person is the only solution (bar platform doors) if you want the staff to be silent.

 

[Fokx]

Have you ever had to walk down p13+14 at Manchester Piccadilly during busy periods?

Yes I happen to work trains from that platform and it’s my depot location.

Despite the overcrowding, the train frequency, the minimal physical space on the platform and the usual two line layout, I believe there’s only been one incident in recent years that I am aware of where a passenger had fell onto the track, and that was partially due to the person being a VIP and the lack of tactile pathing.

Like it or loathe it, the current set up works in terms of passenger safety.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many incidents were there prior to the shouty men being brought in?

 

[Blackpool boy]

Discussion on suggestions for this can take place in this speculative thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/potential-solutions-to-yellow-line-issue.280209/

I've not suggested any here because this thread isn't speculative.

its not speculative though - if someone elsewhere on other threadds says somethign is bad they normally come up with a solution - they dont go create another thread

Moderator note: For future reference, any post of this nature would be speculative and must be posted in Speculative Discussion. Thank you

 

[jfollows]

How many incidents were there prior to the shouty men being brought in?

I think they’re shouty people!

 

[Blackpool boy]

How many incidents were there prior to the shouty men being brought in?

It normally only takes one near miss to indicate that something needs to be done

 

[LowLevel]

How many incidents were there prior to the shouty men being brought in?

They've always been mainly women

The answer presumably is "some" or they'd not have bothered spending a load of money on having them and demolishing the platform buildings.

I do remember one particularly shouting man who has gone now but had a bit of a set to with one of our guards who was standing next to the train that he was in charge of trying to dispatch and the chap in question went into full spinning in a circle on the spot meltdown when he refused to go behind the red line.

 

[Western 52]

Despite the shouting you get at Cardiff Central, they do also announce to passengers about staying behind the yellow line until the incoming train has stopped. This is quite civilised, but it's only done for some trains. These are manual announcements; the auto announcer does not seem to do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

its not speculative though - if someone elsewhere on other threadds says somethign is bad they normally come up with a solution - they dont go create another thread

The mods specifically request that coming up with a solution is done in a separate speculative thread (or the whole thread is moved to speculative). If I don't I always get told off

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

They've always been mainly women

They've been men most of the time I've seen them though I appreciate you're there more often. For what it's worth women may actually be more effective, as they are perceived as less aggressive (but can still shout).

The answer presumably is "some" or they'd not have bothered spending a load of money on having them and demolishing the platform buildings.

Demolishing the buildings was certainly needed (it only worked before because almost every train was 2-car and tended to stop aligned with the open area). But I'd not say that everything the railway spends money on is necessarily the most effective way of achieving what is needed.

 

[BAFRA77]

There seems to be an epidemic of shouting breaking out around the country. One issue is that you'll get one member of staff screaming at you to "move along, use the full length of the platform" except the only way to do that is to cross the yellow line to walk past the people and luggage that have blocked the platform behind the yellow line, and the minute one foot goes over the line, another staff member is screaming at you " stay behind the yellow line". This is especially infuriating when they then proceed to saunter down the space themselves, usually backwards while shouting and gesticulating at someone else. Either it's a risk and nobody should be there except during dispatch or it isn't a risk and is only there for a clear view when dispatching.

It's not calculated to make for a peaceful and relaxing journey for anyone...


Penrith town centre gets some interesting signs at times - made of the correct materials,with the correct fonts, that you wouldn't look at twice until you stop and read them. I suspect it's a joker at the local highway depot, although they do usually raise a smile.

If it's the ones I'm thinking of - they were part of an Arts Project a few years back

https://www.edenarts.co.uk/projects/signsofpenrith

 

[coxxy]

Have you ever had to walk down p13+14 at Manchester Piccadilly during busy periods? One foot crossing the red line (even further in from the platform edge than the yellow line) for a couple seconds to pass the crowd and use the full length of the platform and you get aggressively shouted at.

And worse still, they've given them microphones now so it's screamed over the speakers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And worse still, they've given them microphones now so it's screamed over the speakers!

If they can speak over the PA they should speak, not shout, and what they say will be more understandable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

If it's the ones I'm thinking of - they were part of an Arts Project a few years back

https://www.edenarts.co.uk/projects/signsofpenrith

The rude station sign being alluded to, though, is a Photoshop job. Though the base image is from a platform sign at Penrith.

I've never noticed those other ones, will have to look when next there!

 

[BG2024]

I commute from P14 and I think the shouting is largely justified. Passenger behaviour there is appalling: crowding around doors before passengers already on-board can leave is commonplace, and barely a day goes by without someone idly wandering right to the edge of the platform because they're staring at their phone instead of looking where they're going.

 

[Krokodil]

If they can speak over the PA they should speak, not shout, and what they say will be more understandable.

Have you listened to the PA in use? There's quite a lag. By the time that "please stand back and allow people to alight first" had gone from microphone to speaker, everyone had already alighted and boarded.

 

[Elecman]

Has anyone ever been ejected from a station, or prevented from travelling, for crossing the yellow line?

What byelaws would the person have broken to warrant prevention of travel/ ejection from the station?

 

[43066]

I think they are when it comes to safety, except where their job specifically requires otherwise.

I disagree. I maintain that they aren’t there to act as models of how passengers should behave. I don’t imagine many people would imagine that they are, or even watch what they do that closely? They will simply accept that they’re staff members who will naturally do things they cannot do as passengers.

I cannot think of any setting where, as the patron/user/customer of any business or service, I would look to their uniformed staff as an example of how I should act. They are there in a completely different capacity to me.

It's ineffective. Just like shouting is.

What are you referring to here? Shouting generally is effective, as a last resort, in my experience.

But you presumably wouldn't do that unless you had a specific reason to do so - you'd not just jump down and wander down the line to avoid a crowd on the platform. Whereas some staff saunter down the wrong side of the yellow line just because they can, and that is terrible optics.

That’s true, and I certainly wouldn’t do it to avoid a crowd, but it wouldn’t be for anyone to question why I was doing it, or to believe it was appropriate for them to do so.

It wouldn’t in any way follow that it would be appropriate for member of the public to follow suit. Just as I can use my T key to board an empty train, enter a driving cab and ultimately drive the train. If a member of the public attempted to do what I do on a normal shift at work they would be arrested very rapidly. My behaviour is not an indicator of what any non staff member can do!

If their role, such as dispatch, requires them to be on the other side of the line, then it requires that. But once that's complete they should step back to the safe side. Many don't.

They do that to check that nobody is beyond the yellow line. It’s difficult to get line of sight to do that if they’re themselves behind the line. When we go through St Albans at 100mph, on an inside curve, we tend to appreciate that they’ve done that. That’s one particularly bad location for people being too close to the edge, there are many others.

What byelaws would the person have broken to warrant prevention of travel/ ejection from the station?

If someone fails to follow instructions of staff, that is a bylaw breach.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Extract from Byelaws

[Edit] Image is old screenshot from phone. Regret unable to remove image. Unable to extract text or quote or provide link as requested by Moderator. Please ignore. Apologies for inconvenience, disappointment and confusion.

 

[Brush 4]

Presumably all this started when automatic doors took over. Before then, you could just get on and wait for departure. Now people have to crowd around the doors, waiting for them to open. A backwards step so to speak.

From slam door days, I remember on the LTS in particular, the doors swinging open as the train swept in. No deaths AFAIK, although there may have been of course. The scenarios described above in previous posts, sound far more hazardous and dangerous than anything in slam door days and all because people can't get on when they want to.

Were there yellow lines in slam door days? As I recall, they were only introduced where HST's were rushing past at 125mph.

 

[Ethano92]

Yes I happen to work trains from that platform and it’s my depot location.

Despite the overcrowding, the train frequency, the minimal physical space on the platform and the usual two line layout, I believe there’s only been one incident in recent years that I am aware of where a passenger had fell onto the track, and that was partially due to the person being a VIP and the lack of tactile pathing.

Like it or loathe it, the current set up works in terms of passenger safety.

I’m not doubting the aim of shouty staff is safety. The current setup doesn’t stop people crossing the painted lines when necessary. As I’m not platform staff I can’t claim whether the majority of people who cross yellow lines are oblivious, or simply trying to move past a congestion point and/or platform furniture. I would, however, assume the latter considering how standard yellow lines are across the country. As for the red line on p13+14, that’s another matter as it’s not standard across the country or even across Piccadilly station.

 

[chris53]

Is it really that difficult to just not stand/walk behind the yellow safety line in the first instance?

Sometimes it is impossible to get past people otherwise

 

[43066]

Presumably all this started when automatic doors took over. Before then, you could just get on and wait for departure. Now people have to crowd around the doors, waiting for them to open. A backwards step so to speak.

From slam door days, I remember on the LTS in particular, the doors swinging open as the train swept in. No deaths AFAIK, although there may have been of course. The scenarios described above in previous posts, sound far more hazardous and dangerous than anything in slam door days and all because people can't get on when they want to.

Were there yellow line in slam door days? As I recall, they were only introduced where HST's were rushing past at 125mph.

I think it’s also that risk appetite has changed over the years. When auto doors were first introduced drivers pretty much just went on the interlock. Clearly that wouldn’t be seen as acceptable today, and TOCs therefore drum it into staff that safety must always come first, and you just never dispatch a train until completely satisfied it’s safe etc.

It still amazes me that my operator was running HSTs with no door interlocking at all until quite recently. You could literally drive off with the doors open!

 

[Lampshade]

Is it really that difficult to just not stand/walk behind the yellow safety line in the first instance?

I got bellowed at at Wigan North Western a couple of years ago as I dared to walk the 'wrong' side of the yellow line to avoid some pushchairs which had congregated at a narrow point.

One day they're going to shout at the wrong person and they're not going to like the outcome.