It doesn’t necessarily mean that. Retirements, training paused and stopped for a period during Covid. Plus you don’t know how those numbers break down between depots. It isn’t as simple as saying 18% less operations = 18% less staff required.
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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates
- Thread starter WWTownEnth
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It doesn’t necessarily mean that. Retirements, training paused and stopped for a period during Covid. Plus you don’t know how those numbers break down between depots. It isn’t as simple as saying 18% less operations = 18% less staff required.
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norbitonflyer
Established Member
RTT once again being secretive about 2H93 today. The ECS (5H93) currently on its way in so it's definitely running.
701036/37/39/43 all out and about, which narrows it down a bit.
{EDIT} Are RTT watching this thread? It's just come up wiuthin secionds of me posting this.
They are running 87% of their train km using the same time period. SWR onboard staffing doesn't vary by train length (or number of units) meaning shorter trains don't move the dial.
There's plenty of reasons which may explain other parts of the difference based on observations elsewhere e.g. increased sickness, reduced uptake of rest day working, less efficient diagrams, higher rate of cancellations. SWR were one of the operators to reduce services during the ASLEF overtime ban so clearly there aren't loads of people sitting around spare who could be directed to training instead.
Goldfish62
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It was mentioned a few posts back that local ASLEF reps did not agree with the mods that have been made to the units to let them enter service.
Sound like the old reputation of militancy on the South Western isn't being allowed to die!
Time surely to consider transferring them to South Eastern, where I'm sure they would enter service a lot quicker
Sound like the old reputation of militancy on the South Western isn't being allowed to die!
Time surely to consider transferring them to South Eastern, where I'm sure they would enter service a lot quicker
Goldfish62
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Send them elsewhere. End of.
And use what stock? 455s are quite literally falling apart.
Class15
Established Member
Umm, in what way? I saw a few at Clapham this evening and they all seemed absolutely fine, with no short forms and even some subbing in for 701s in the last few days/weeks.
Goldfish62
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Well, if that's what everyone wants who are standing in the way of 701 introduction then why not?
Another scenario would be getting the 707s back from SE in exchange for 701s and topping up with knackered old Networkers. But then no doubt someone would find an excuse to find them unsuitable!
norbitonflyer
Established Member
That diagram goes to the depot at 0930 after the morning peak and what (if anything) emerges to take up the evening peak is not always the same unit.
Elorith
Member
They probably don't have enough drivers on the books to do it...
Goldfish62
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Yet strangely Avanti West Coast, which has such an appalling industrial relations reputation and a far more publicised shortage of staff has managed to introduce their 805s very rapidly.
OneTrackMinded
Member
Wow. Somehow managed to go backwards. The level of incompetency across the board is impressive at this point from all parties involved
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They have holes in bodywork. If they kept going for multiple more years they would in a literal sense start to fall apart
They aren't going to last 30 more years now, are they?
It's very much SWR going back on the agreements that had been agreed on by both parties.
weeklycommuter
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What was the point of the event at London Waterloo on 28 November 2024?
Elorith
Member
There are over 100 more drivers at Avanti than there were 2-3 years ago though. The DfT allowed the business to change its long-term strategy and reduce the reliance on rest-day working, which seems to be paying off.
Makes it look like they are doing something to distract from how they aren't?
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
I don’t understand. You post continuously in every SWR related thread. And quite often complaining about the unsuitability of existing stock. And now want the 701s taken to SE?
I don’t think it will take long for ASLEF to agree to the new course, but (speculation) it would appear ASLEF reps are not happy with how the change of course was handled.
It’s all becoming quite tedious though.
Could SWR use GBRF drivers for passenger trains for the time being??
It’s all becoming quite tedious though.
Could SWR use GBRF drivers for passenger trains for the time being??
Fincra5
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The 455s are life expired.
So they swap 30 trains, fine but then SE will have to train all their drivers on 701s, check the units clearance, signal Sighting etc etc etc...
Still doesn't solve the 455 issues. SWR drivers would then need retraining on 707s due to the time they've been away, sure it's probably just a conversion course from a 450 but still a course.
SWR, ASLEF and the DtF need to sit down and sort the issues once and for all.
Goldfish62
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They don't seem to have the same issues with new trains introduction as SWR (does any TOC for that matter?). Look how quickly the 707s were introduced.
If BR was around, with its whole-railway approach to rolling stock allocation I'm sure the 701s would have noved elsewhere by now if the same issues on the South Western as now were encountered.
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How much more sitting down and not sorting out the issues is needed? Once and for all won't be once and for all. Someone will find a new excuse not to get them into service on SWR.
OneTrackMinded
Member
-No new method of operation introduced (already DOO) - therefore no issue with ASLEF or RMT
-Train had already been in service for multiple years with another operator (fault free running not required, “new train niggles” already sorted, knowledge of what works and what doesn’t work in terms of introduction from previous)
-Very similar trains, 700s, had already run on many of the lines the 707s were going to travel on (gauging, etc)
-30 trains instead of 90, much smaller scope
Not denying this introduction has been a disaster, but it’s really not a fair comparison to make
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But wasn’t all that supposedly settled & agreed on SWR a while back now ?
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An event not at the their usual office location, so they can put a day of expenses through the accounts probably.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
It seems a lot more than two or three sets of staff are required to reliably cover ALL parts of each stock diagram.
I think SWR has lost drivers at the rate consistent with natural wastage but has not invested in replacement staff, relying on systematic and excessive overtime instead.
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Indeed Avanti ddi go through the pain of discovering they needed more drivers and getting them before the 805s appeared.
I wonder if the rosters for Avanti drivers are less complex. It is fewer longer routes for a start compared to SWR.
But SWR should have seen this coming - driver shortage just like at Avanti previously.
Probably just expressing despair.
I wonder how the CUSTOMERS would express despair.
Homeworking forever !.
OneTrackMinded
Member
SWR as a whole is just despair and frustration at this point
SWR historically had a constant supply of trainees throughout every year with new courses starting most months. Recent years have had almost nothing in comparison. I think one of the years post-COVID had no trainees at all; if it did, it was only a handful.
Personally, I don't think SWR could afford to recruit many new drivers under the original franchise agreement; then, when it became a contract, the strings were pulled by the DFT. It's cheaper short term to use overtime than employing another person so that money they got from the government went further for profit/dividends. This was also all pre-pay deal which made overtime more attractive. It's now not worth working lots of overtime from a tax point of view, and those who do like overtime are very close to hitting the ceiling and risking losing the personal tax allowance.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
So without starting a new thread, could the life-expired 455's have further life-extension work done and reliveried in SWR ??