DiColl - Fare Penalty

[DiColl]

Hi folks, I’m sure this question has been asked many times but here goes. I had travelled to a small town close to me to call at the Halifax Bank (our branch had recently closed) and to try and pick up a slimg for my Mum who had broken her wrist. I had finished my duties and I was waiting for the bus home. I needed to get back quick as I’m the unofficial carer for my Mum and due to the broken wrist she couldn’t do anything for herself as she’s very bad walking (hence falling and the broken wrist) and also she has Angina, Cognitive impairment, Diabetes and Osteoporosis. I was very concerned to get home and the buses seemed to be either late or cancelled due to the recent snow we’ve had. My bus stop overlooked Crossgates station and I heard a train pull in. Baring in mind all the variables I’ve mentioned I ran to catch the train. I got on and then got my money out to pay the conductor. He then told me I couldn’t pay and he was issuing me with a penalty notice. I was a bit confused but he told me straight away I could appeal. He maybe told me that very quick to calm the situation down. I didn’t think too much of it and I must admit I didn’t read the notice straight away. A day or so later I looked at it and saw the figures and they shocked me. Straight away I appealed. They quashed my appeal and told me I had to pay the fine. They said there were signs everywhere and a chance to buy a ticket at Crossgates. I understand that but if your genuinely not aware of the ticket situation and I 100% thought i could pay on the train. The last time I used the train I payed onboard and if I knew about this situation why would I risk it? I explained all this in my appeal but to no avail. I’m going to go for a second appeal and go into more detail. I’m so angry about this as I was only trying to do the best for my Mum. I’m working 50 hours a week, cooking, shopping, cleaning, washing and I’m only just coping with it all. If I’m honest the way I feel I’m going to let them take me to court because I can’t believe this is the way they treat customers that had the means to pay. I live within half a mile of the station but I’ve genuinely never seen a sign regarding the matter. To top it all Northern Rail have been keeping me awake on a night for months now doing work through the night on our station. I’d appreciate any info or help you good, fair people could give me. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Di

 

[dciuk]

Please can you post a copy of the penalty fare you received, with any identifying details redacted/obscured and one of the experts on this forum might be able to advise if it has been issued incorrectly, but failing that you would probably be best of paying it (with the prompt payment discount if not already too late) as that is likely to cost much less that if it ends up in court.

 

[DiColl]

Please can you post a copy of the penalty fare you received, with any identifying details redacted/obscured and one of the experts on this forum might be able to advise if it has been issued incorrectly, but failing that you would probably be best of paying it (with the prompt payment discount if not already too late) as that is likely to cost much less that if it ends up in court.

Thanks for that, I’ll take a picture of it and post it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

I’ve put up the picture of my penalty fare notice. Hope it’s helpful to any of the experts. Thanks again for your time.

 

[John R]

I had travelled to a small town close to me to call at the Halifax Bank (our branch had recently closed) and to try and pick up a slimg for my Mum who had broken her wrist. I had finished my duties and I was waiting for the bus home. I needed to get back quick as I’m the unofficial carer for my Mum and due to the broken wrist she couldn’t do anything for herself as she’s very bad walking (hence falling and the broken wrist) and also she has Angina, Cognitive impairment, Diabetes and Osteoporosis. I was very concerned to get home and the buses seemed to be either late or cancelled due to the recent snow we’ve had. My bus stop overlooked Crossgates station and I heard a train pull in. Baring in mind all the variables I’ve mentioned I ran to catch the train

All this is an irrelevance. As far as the railway is concerned (and indeed us in trying to see what options you have), all that is important is:-

I got on and then got my money out to pay the conductor.

 

[DiColl]

Exactly and what’s wrong with that if that’s what I did on my last journey I made on a train. Like I said I live near the station and I’ve paid for tickets on the train all my life. The Audacity of the train system to think that everybody knows their new fine rules. Do you think I’d have done this if I knew about it? It doesn’t make any sense! For me it’s just a money making scheme. I mean how can they justify £50 or £100 for a £3 journey? Do we all now need to know every rule of every company or face fines?? I can’t believe there hasn’t been uproar. Maybe if there was I’d have heard of it!!! I can prove everything I’ve said regarding caring for my Mum. What is the point of any appeal system?

 

[RailsNetwork]

Typically stations which operate penalty fare schemes have announcements and/or posters which inform passengers of such. If there's no information at all at the station, you may have grounds to appeal, but it'd be down to you to prove that.

As for the £50 as opposed to the £3 fare - that's the penalty fare aspect. As outlined in Northern's revenue protection policies, it's their way of reducing ticketless travel across their network. As is often said, if the barriers were open at the end destination there's nothing stopping passengers from walking out without paying for their journey.

The appeal system is typically for bringing information to light which changes the course of action (i.e a ticket machine being out of order which the employee was unaware about so it'd be physically impossible to buy before boarding etc.). As unfortunate as it is, personal matters are oftentimes overlooked when appealing.

 

[John R]

I can prove everything I’ve said regarding caring for my Mum. What is the point of any appeal system?

I'm not sure why you think the fact that you care for your mother and was doing errands for her should influence their decision. The Appeal process is designed to cover situations where the railway has not followed the required process, say by not having the correct notices clearly on display, or there was no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding.

As for if a £50 "fine" (actually a penalty fare) is justified for a £3 ticket? Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, you committed a criminal offence by not having a valid ticket when you boarded. Think of the situation whereby you inadvertently break the speed limit by just a few mph and get caught. You either get points and a fine, or have to pay for a speed awareness course.

One thing to note is that as you have appealed, Northern is no longer able to bring a criminal prosecution if you refuse to pay the fine. However, they can attempt to recover the debt by other means, and I would suggest you think carefully as to whether it's advisable not to pay, as recovery of civil debts can ultimately prove expensive, and could also impact your credit rating, which might have lots of other implications.

I would be inclined to grit your teeth, pay up, and think of it a one of life's irritating experiences.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum! I am sorry to hear about the situation regarding your mum.

From a legal point of view you must be in possession of a valid ticket for your journey before you board the train and failure to comply with this is a criminal offece. There are some exceptions, if there are no ticket issuing facilities (i.e. an open ticket office or a ticket machine) at the station where you start your journey or if they don't accept your chosen method of payment. I'm not familiar with Crossgates station but from what I can see online there is a part time ticket office and a ticket machine so it seems that you passed an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

However harsh it might seem, a Penalty Fare is an appropriate way to deal with an situation like this. There is nothing to stop you appealing it but I wouldn't expect the appeal to succeed. My advice would be to pay up while the discounted rate is still available and chalk it up to experience.

There might be some very technical reasons relating to station signage as to why the Penalty Fare might be invalid, and I'm sure other forum members more expert in this area than me will be able to advise in due course.

 

[DiColl]

I'm not sure why you think the fact that you care for your mother and was doing errands for her should influence their decision. The Appeal process is designed to cover situations where the railway has not followed the required process, say by not having the correct notices clearly on display, or there was no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding.

As for if a £50 "fine" (actually a penalty fare) is justified for a £3 ticket? Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, you committed a criminal offence by not having a valid ticket when you boarded. Think of the situation whereby you inadvertently break the speed limit by just a few mph and get caught. You either get points and a fine, or have to pay for a speed awareness course.

One thing to note is that as you have appealed, Northern is no longer able to bring a criminal prosecution if you refuse to pay the fine. However, they can attempt to recover the debt by other means, and I would suggest you think carefully as to whether it's advisable not to pay, as recovery of civil debts can ultimately prove expensive, and could also impact your credit rating, which might have lots of other implications.

I would be inclined to grit your teeth, pay up, and think of it a one of life's irritating experiences.

Thanks John, I appreciate your response. What I was trying to explain when I talked about being a carer was that fact totally influenced my decision to run for the train. I had waited for the bus for over an hour. My Mum hadn’t answered my calls. She had fallen over at least once a day since the broken wrist. It’s why I had to get home quick as I was scared something was wrong. Shea had stents fitted as she has heart problems and she’s also had a small stroke not so long back. All this taken into consideration did you think I would just stand at a bus stop and wait for a bus that might not come because of the snow. Or should have waited another 30 minutes for the next train while my mother could be laid on the floor in agony or worse. My family come first that’s why I went to Crossgates. Do Northern Rail expect me to wait while something devastatingly bad happens to my Mum before I return home. Any sane person who couldn’t get hold of their Mum and with her history would do what I did. Also I had no idea of the ticket rule so I’m baffled. You talked about the speed limit, I get that but I know about speed limits. I get notifications on my Dash, I had no idea about the ticket issue.

Typically stations which operate penalty fare schemes have announcements and/or posters which inform passengers of such. If there's no information at all at the station, you may have grounds to appeal, but it'd be down to you to prove that.

As for the £50 as opposed to the £3 fare - that's the penalty fare aspect. As outlined in Northern's revenue protection policies, it's their way of reducing ticketless travel across their network. As is often said, if the barriers were open at the end destination there's nothing stopping passengers from walking out without paying for their journey.

The appeal system is typically for bringing information to light which changes the course of action (i.e a ticket machine being out of order which the employee was unaware about so it'd be physically impossible to buy before boarding etc.). As unfortunate as it is, personal matters are oftentimes overlooked when appealing.

Thanks for you feedback

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi folks, I’m sure this question has been asked many times but here goes. I had travelled to a small town close to me to call at the Halifax Bank (our branch had recently closed) and to try and pick up a slimg for my Mum who had broken her wrist. I had finished my duties and I was waiting for the bus home. I needed to get back quick as I’m the unofficial carer for my Mum and due to the broken wrist she couldn’t do anything for herself as she’s very bad walking (hence falling and the broken wrist) and also she has Angina, Cognitive impairment, Diabetes and Osteoporosis. I was very concerned to get home and the buses seemed to be either late or cancelled due to the recent snow we’ve had. My bus stop overlooked Crossgates station and I heard a train pull in. Baring in mind all the variables I’ve mentioned I ran to catch the train. I got on and then got my money out to pay the conductor. He then told me I couldn’t pay and he was issuing me with a penalty notice. I was a bit confused but he told me straight away I could appeal. He maybe told me that very quick to calm the situation down. I didn’t think too much of it and I must admit I didn’t read the notice straight away. A day or so later I looked at it and saw the figures and they shocked me. Straight away I appealed. They quashed my appeal and told me I had to pay the fine. They said there were signs everywhere and a chance to buy a ticket at Crossgates. I understand that but if your genuinely not aware of the ticket situation and I 100% thought i could pay on the train. The last time I used the train I payed onboard and if I knew about this situation why would I risk it? I explained all this in my appeal but to no avail. I’m going to go for a second appeal and go into more detail. I’m so angry about this as I was only trying to do the best for my Mum. I’m working 50 hours a week, cooking, shopping, cleaning, washing and I’m only just coping with it all. If I’m honest the way I feel I’m going to let them take me to court because I can’t believe this is the way they treat customers that had the means to pay. I live within half a mile of the station but I’ve genuinely never seen a sign regarding the matter. To top it all Northern Rail have been keeping me awake on a night for months now doing work through the night on our station. I’d appreciate any info or help you good, fair people could give me. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Di

Do not, under any circumstances, let this go to court.

The railway won’t care, the magistrates might but have no flexibility and it will all end up costing you massively more.

You have my sympathy but you should be prepared to pay this promptly to get the discount and avoid it escalating. If you think it’s unfair that’s something to get on to your MP about later. It’s the government that wants them to get rid of allowing people to pay for tickets on board the train.

 

[DiColl]

Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated and all the best

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

Welcome to the forum! I am sorry to hear about the situation regarding your mum.

From a legal point of view you must be in possession of a valid ticket for your journey before you board the train and failure to comply with this is a criminal offece. There are some exceptions, if there are no ticket issuing facilities (i.e. an open ticket office or a ticket machine) at the station where you start your journey or if they don't accept your chosen method of payment. I'm not familiar with Crossgates station but from what I can see online there is a part time ticket office and a ticket machine so it seems that you passed an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

However harsh it might seem, a Penalty Fare is an appropriate way to deal with an situation like this. There is nothing to stop you appealing it but I wouldn't expect the appeal to succeed. My advice would be to pay up while the discounted rate is still available and chalk it up to experience.

There might be some very technical reasons relating to station signage as to why the Penalty Fare might be invalid, and I'm sure other forum members more expert in this area than me will be able to advise in due course.

Thanks, I had to run for the train as I thought something was wrong at home. Take care

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated and all the best

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==


Thanks, I had to run for the train as I thought something was wrong at home. Take care

Also. Take the opportunity to use this enquiry by making your points to the regulator as they are currently looking into this here

Call for evidence: Review of train operators’ revenue protection policies | Office of Rail and Road

Call for evidence for the ORR independent review of train operators’ revenue protection practices.

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[Alex C.]

Do not, under any circumstances, let this go to court.

The railway won’t care, the magistrates might but have no flexibility and it will all end up costing you massively more.

You have my sympathy but you should be prepared to pay this promptly to get the discount and avoid it escalating. If you think it’s unfair that’s something to get on to your MP about later. It’s the government that wants them to get rid of allowing people to pay for tickets on board the train.

Is the railway not now prevented from pursuing a prosecution? My understanding of the penalty fare regulations is that an appeal (successful or not) bars a prosecution for the offence and the only remedy the TOC will have is to pursue a civil claim against the original poster, which does not have criminal consequences and only limited costs can be reclaimed on top of the penalty fare. To my knowledge no TOC has yet pursued unpaid penalty fares via this route. I am happy to be corrected on any of this though.

My recommendation is obviously to pay the penalty fare, and do it before the cost doubles to £100 to ensure the matter is not hanging over you. The situation is exactly what penalty fares were designed for.

 

[John R]

Is the railway not now prevented from pursuing a prosecution? My understanding of the penalty fare regulations is that an appeal (successful or not) bars a prosecution for the offence and the only remedy the TOC will have is to pursue a civil claim against the original poster, which does not have criminal consequences and only limited costs can be reclaimed on top of the penalty fare.

Discussed in post 7.

 

[Alex C.]

Discussed in post 7.

I missed that - although one thing I'd add is that the impact on a credit file is only if a judgement isn't paid within 28 days (or maybe a calendar month) - if you lose a case and pay the money straight away, there is no ongoing impact. Agreed with the rest though.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for that, I’ll take a picture of it and post it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

I’ve put up the picture of my penalty fare notice. Hope it’s helpful to any of the experts. Thanks again for your time.

Can you upload a copy of the entire notice.

 

[WesternLancer]

Is the railway not now prevented from pursuing a prosecution? My understanding of the penalty fare regulations is that an appeal (successful or not) bars a prosecution for the offence and the only remedy the TOC will have is to pursue a civil claim against the original poster, which does not have criminal consequences and only limited costs can be reclaimed on top of the penalty fare. To my knowledge no TOC has yet pursued unpaid penalty fares via this route. I am happy to be corrected on any of this though.

My recommendation is obviously to pay the penalty fare, and do it before the cost doubles to £100 to ensure the matter is not hanging over you. The situation is exactly what penalty fares were designed for.

But don’t they go to court to pursue unpaid penalty fares?

If they don’t why would anyone ever pay them.

And I’d suggest to the op they would not want the hassle of that, esp given their caring commitments which will certainly involve a massive amount of time, stress and hard work. Having the railway chase you via a court for a sum that can be resolved now for £50 will cost lots of time and the sum will be way higher by that time (seem to recall a case on here last year involving Mersey rail where an ignored Penalty had escalated to c£500 by the time the person concerned was caught up with by bailiffs)

This would be different from being prosecuted for the ticketing error, which may now be prevented.

Obviously correct me if I am wrong or if this is improbable.

 

[AlterEgo]

we haven’t seen the whole penalty fare, only a portion which the OP has posted. So we are none the wiser as to whether there is a technical point of appeal.

 

[Egg Centric]

we haven’t seen the whole penalty fare, only a portion which the OP has posted. So we are none the wiser as to whether there is a technical point of appeal.

Yes @DiColl please post the whole thing and also confirm your destination station and where you were stopped - immediately out of Cross Gates ?

(Having said that a £3.20 fare presumably to Garforth it is unlikely that the usual technicalities are going to apply)