Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[norbitonflyer]

Nasty surprise at Surbiton this morning - the 0752 is back to a clapped out 455

And again today, according to RTT. The other five diagrams are all running

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2025 ==

So according to their website, this is the rollout plan. A bit confused by their proposals here, are these proposed diagrams only going to run at peak times, apart from the Windsor ones?

Train #	EIS date	Key areas served	Peak and key services
1-5	23 September - 25 November	Windsor Shepperton Surbiton	38 x Windsor services 10 x Shepperton services 1 x Surbiton service
6	December 2024	Shepperton Strawberry Hill Windsor & Eton Riverside	0543 Teddington - Waterloo 0642 Waterloo - Shepperton 0741 Shepperton - Waterloo 0842 Waterloo - Shepperton 1642 Waterloo - Shepperton 1741 Shepperton - Waterloo 1842 Waterloo - Shepperton
7	February 2025	Kingston Shepperton	0640 Kingston - Waterloo 0711 Shepperton - Waterloo 0812 Waterloo - Shepperton 0911 Shepperton - Waterloo 1612 Waterloo - Shepperton 1711 Shepperton - Waterloo 1812 Waterloo - Shepperton
8	February 2025	Shepperton Hounslow Loop	0615 Waterloo - Shepperton 0730 Shepperton - Waterloo 0845 Waterloo - Waterloo via Hounslow 1707 Waterloo - Waterloo via Richmond 1843 Waterloo - Shepperton
9	March 2025 - first trains to/from Epsom and Guildford	Epsom Hampton Court Guildford	0617 Epsom – Waterloo 0706 Waterloo – Hampton Court 0753 Hampton Court – Waterloo 0854 Waterloo – Guildford via Epsom 1706 Waterloo – Hampton Court 1754 Hampton Court – Waterloo 1854 Waterloo – Guildford via Epsom
10	March 2025 - first trains to/from Dorking	Dorking Epsom Hampton Court Guildford	0659 Dorking – Waterloo 0806 Waterloo – Hampton Court 0853 Hampton Court – Waterloo 1625 Guildford – Waterloo via Epsom 1806 Waterloo – Hampton Court 1854 Hampton Court- Waterloo
11	March 2025	Hounslow Loop Kingston Loop	0530 Waterloo – Waterloo via Richmond 0657 Waterloo – Waterloo via Kingston 0830 Waterloo – Waterloo via Richmond 1730 Waterloo – Waterloo via Richmond 1857 Waterloo – Waterloo via Kingston
12	April 2025	Staines Shepperton Strawberry Hill	0453 Staines – Waterloo 0557 Waterloo – Shepperton 0700 Shepperton – Waterloo 0813 Waterloo – Strawberry Hill via Twickenham 1801 Strawberry Hill – Waterloo via Twickenham 1845 Waterloo – Hounslow
13	May 2025 - first trains to/from Chessington South	Dorking Hampton Court Chessington South	0624 Waterloo – Dorking 0730 Dorking – Waterloo 0836 Waterloo – Hampton Court 0923 Hampton Court – Waterloo 1636 Waterloo – Hampton Court 1724 Hampton Court – Waterloo 1809 Waterloo – Guildford via Epsom 2300 Waterloo – Chessington South 2342 Chessington South - Waterloo
14	June 2025	Hounslow Loop Kingston Loop	0600 Waterloo – Waterloo via Richmond 0727 Waterloo – Waterloo via Kingston 0900 Waterloo – Waterloo via Richmond 1627 Waterloo – Waterloo via Kingston 1800 Waterloo – Waterloo via Richmond
15	June 2025 - first trains to/from Reading	Reading Ascot	0526 Waterloo – Reading 0709 Reading – Waterloo 1607 Waterloo - Waterloo via Hounslow 1750 Waterloo – Reading

Any idea when in February the next two diagrams are planned to start? I would have expected that there would be more than six units in service by now if they are hoping to be able to cover eight diagrams next month, but we always see the same six every day.

 

[3973EXL]

701057

Realtime Trains | 5Q87 1234 Long Marston Gbrf to Eastleigh East Yard | 15/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q87 1234 departure from Long Marston Gbrf to Eastleigh East Yard on 15/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q88 1833 Eastleigh East Yard to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 15/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q88 1833 departure from Eastleigh East Yard to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 15/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter Sarf]

Stange that 701050 has gone back to Long Marston today as it came FROM Long Marston to Wimbledon on 31.10.24: Just WHAT is going on ?
Is somebody carrying out some mods somewhere, perhaps ?

They rotate the unused units between places with 3rd rail and colder store.
I sometimes think it would be easier to - well you know - use them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They rotate the unused units between places with 3rd rail and colder store.
I sometimes think it would be easier to - well you know - use them.

And how would you propose they use them?

 

[Lockwood]

To move passengers from one place to another?

 

[markle]

deleted

 

[DMckduck]

I travel from a high frequency station. It seems many regular travellers now actively target getting the 701 service, including not boarding the preceeding service. So I'd take it as a sign that it's popular with commuters.

Downside is that whereas historically the 701 services would absorb all passengers waiting on the platform, people are now being left behind at Earlsfield and Clapham.

Those additional diagrams can't come soon enough.

It is a positive sign, when all diagrams are covered they should swallow up passenger numbers at stations during the peak.

Hopefully resulting in increased usage.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

...and how many of the six diagrams are actually running today?

 

[Bumpkin]

...and how many of the six diagrams are actually running today?

5 out of 6 diagrams today. 2J92 ran with an 8 455 this morning.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hmm... A slight improvement, then!

 

[DMckduck]

5 out of 6 diagrams today. 2J92 ran with an 8 455 this morning.

Do we know yet if 2J92 being 8/455 is a resource issue or unit availability issue?

 

[Snow1964]

Do we know yet if 2J92 being 8/455 is a resource issue or unit availability issue?

I am sure someone will have exact figures, but I understand about fifth or sixth of crews now trained (about 130 drivers).

The number of suburban diagrams is about 55 (although can say anything from 42 to 68 depending on if exclude outer suburban, or include all services planned when fleet was ordered).

So operating just 5 diagrams today is about tenth, well behind crewing knowledge. But would expect crews to be higher to avoid complicated crew allocations. Although by now ought to be close to adding a diagram each week (at least on paper, even if they find it difficult in practice).

 

[DMckduck]

I am sure someone will have exact figures, but I understand about fifth or sixth of crews now trained (about 130 drivers).

The number of suburban diagrams is about 55 (although can say anything from 42 to 68 depending on if exclude outer suburban, or include all services planned when fleet was ordered).

So operating just 5 diagrams today is about tenth, well behind crewing knowledge. But would expect crews to be higher to avoid complicated crew allocations. Although by now ought to be close to adding a diagram each week (at least on paper, even if they find it difficult in practice).

It might just be myself being cynical, but I can't see their introduction roadmap being close to planned by June 2025. But I will happily be proved wrong by. SWR (yet to happen)

 

[Goldfish62]

It might just be myself being cynical, but I can't see their introduction roadmap being close to planned by June 2025. But I will happily be proved wrong by. SWR (yet to happen)

Even if 15 units are in service by June it can't go on being that slow. Something's got to change.

One change from May is that SWR will be subject to FOI (Freedom of Information) so we might at least be able to get to bottom of things more easily!

 

[Peter Sarf]

And how would you propose they use them?

Oh, if only the roll out would get a move on !.

I am sure someone will have exact figures, but I understand about fifth or sixth of crews now trained (about 130 drivers).

The number of suburban diagrams is about 55 (although can say anything from 42 to 68 depending on if exclude outer suburban, or include all services planned when fleet was ordered).

So operating just 5 diagrams today is about tenth, well behind crewing knowledge. But would expect crews to be higher to avoid complicated crew allocations. Although by now ought to be close to adding a diagram each week (at least on paper, even if they find it difficult in practice).

I can see that there will always be a need to have more crew trained than are actually needed for a small fleet - to cover contingencies. That is until the fleet is no longer small but all.

But I hope that the size of cover does not need to change. I mean that if twice as many crew are trained I hope that more than twice as many 701s can be used. That is because for a given route-group the number of spare crew for cover will not need to increase - I hope. That would mean for each extra driver (and "guard") trained there could be one extra unit out in service. But that does not seem to be happening so is it the case the contingency pool is still being enlarged ?.

 

[Bigfoot]

But I hope that the size of cover does not need to change. I mean that if twice as many crew are trained I hope that more than twice as many 701s can be used. That is because for a given route-group the number of spare crew for cover will not need to increase - I hope. That would mean for each extra driver (and "guard") trained there could be one extra unit out in service. But that does not seem to be happening so is it the case the contingency pool is still being enlarged ?.

This is quite the presumption! It requires each of the extra trained crew to be available for work at the correct time and on the correct day to work this extra train. It also implies that you only need another approximately 60 trained crews to have all of the remaining units out in service.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is quite the presumption! It requires each of the extra trained crew to be available for work at the correct time and on the correct day to work this extra train. It also implies that you only need another approximately 60 trained crews to have all of the remaining units out in service.

True - I suppose there will be two or three (?) shifts worth of staff required for each additional unit anyway. But would extra cover be required as well ?.

If six to eight (was it ?) sets of crew are passing out on 701s each fortnight then would that imply that two more 701s could go into service ?. Assuming the 0-2 above the six allows a build up of cover.

I suppose staff do a mixture of routes during a shift and that the units involved very through that shift. So roughly/on-average how many sets of passed out staff does it take to allow for an extra 701 to be covered for its entire diagram ?.

 

[PG]

One change from May is that SWR will be subject to FOI (Freedom of Information) so we might at least be able to get to bottom of things more easily!

Unless First group manage to, ahem, lose the records!

I wonder if all 701 trained staff are managing to keep their competencies before they lapse?

 

[TEW]

There haven't been any staff trained since before Christmas so there's not going to be an increase in diagrams yet.

 

[Wolfie]

Even if 15 units are in service by June it can't go on being that slow. Something's got to change.

One change from May is that SWR will be subject to FOI (Freedom of Information) so we might at least be able to get to bottom of things more easily!

Not necessarily. Might arguably fall under the commercial exemptions included in FOI.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not necessarily. Might arguably fall under the commercial exemptions included in FOI.

No, the other DOHL-owned TOCs are subject to FOI. There's no mechanism for exempting whole publicly-owned businesses from FOI. It would a nonsense of the whole thing.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There haven't been any staff trained since before Christmas so there's not going to be an increase in diagrams yet.

Ouch. Had not though of that. I suppose that is because cannot stretch the already stretched resources to meet training requirements.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

There haven't been any staff trained since before Christmas so there's not going to be an increase in diagrams yet.

I assume when the training restarts it’ll be the new shorter programme with guards closing the doors

 

[Wolfie]

No, the other DOHL-owned TOCs are subject to FOI. There's no mechanism for exempting whole publicly-owned businesses from FOI. It would a nonsense of the whole thing.

That would apply to material going forward from the date of the change l agree. However past material is a whole other issue.

Oh, l spent the best part of 20 years of my career as necessary drafting FOI responses for several HMG departments.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Even if 15 units are in service by June it can't go on being that slow. Something's got to change.

One change from May is that SWR will be subject to FOI (Freedom of Information) so we might at least be able to get to bottom of things more easily!

Not if they say the issue is with the supplier, who are still a private company

 

[DMckduck]

True - I suppose there will be two or three (?) shifts worth of staff required for each additional unit anyway. But would extra cover be required as well ?.

If six to eight (was it ?) sets of crew are passing out on 701s each fortnight then would that imply that two more 701s could go into service ?. Assuming the 0-2 above the six allows a build up of cover.

I suppose staff do a mixture of routes during a shift and that the units involved very through that shift. So roughly/on-average how many sets of passed out staff does it take to allow for an extra 701 to be covered for its entire diagram ?.

This is where it's difficult, because the roster has crews covering a full variety of shifts, so you could theoretically have all 701 trained drivers at a specific depot already on booked work and not on the base roster as spare.

They can't be taken off that job short notice unless it's mutually agreed. Last thing you want is a 701 blocking a the line at a common crew changeover point with a driver requiring a pnb or going out of hours, which then has a knock on effect for the rest of that drivers turn.

 

[Goldfish62]

This is where it's difficult, because the roster has crews covering a full variety of shifts, so you could theoretically have all 701 trained drivers at a specific depot already on booked work and not on the base roster as spare.

They can't be taken off that job short notice unless it's mutually agreed. Last thing you want is a 701 blocking a the line at a common crew changeover point with a driver requiring a pnb or going out of hours, which then has a knock on effect for the rest of that drivers turn.

How did it work in the past when the 444s and 450s were introduced? They appeared very quickly.

Surely there are contingency plans to deal with the various issues highlighted. New trains introduction is a core part of running a railway company. But then this is SWR where apparently nothing works the same as it does anywhere else!

 

[43066]

How did it work in the past when the 444s and 450s were introduced? They appeared very quickly.

Surely there are contingency plans to deal with the various issues highlighted. New trains introduction is a core part of running a railway company. But then this is SWR where apparently nothing works the same as it does anywhere else!

You ideally just slot the new stock into the existing diagrams. Obviously this relies on enough stock being available, and enough crews being trained up so that the crew diagrams can be matched up, and preferably also with spare/standby coverage, which I think is what @DMckduck97 was getting at.

 

[Snow1964]

There haven't been any staff trained since before Christmas so there's not going to be an increase in diagrams yet.

Are you saying training has been paused ?
How does that assist getting more 701s into service.

I might be cynical, but per ORR figures, SWR is only running 82.02% of pre covid vehicle km (from ORR table 1253 using same quarter, Jul-Sep 2019 and Jul-Sep 2024 (which is most recent published quarter)

Now if SWR has lost 18% of their operations, unless they have seen 18% of staff retire or leave (and not be replaced) in 5 years, then not having surplus staff for training suggests something else is delaying training.

 

[DMckduck]

Are you saying training has been paused ?
How does that assist getting more 701s into service.

I might be cynical, but per ORR figures, SWR is only running 82.02% of pre covid vehicle km (from ORR table 1253 using same quarter, Jul-Sep 2019 and Jul-Sep 2024 (which is most recent published quarter)

Now if SWR has lost 18% of their operations, unless they have seen 18% of staff retire or leave (and not be replaced) in 5 years, then not having surplus staff for training suggests something else is delaying training.

There's probably agreements that need to be sorted out again for the new training plan (I know it shouldn't take this long)

Plus in those 5 years, there was a multi year recruitment freeze imposed by the DFT on instruction from the previous government.

Guards dropping from 42/5 to 37/4.5 hasn't helped with staffing numbers, and drivers retiring or leaving simply haven't be replaced to the level required since 2019.