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Why hasn't Crossrail led to more support for HS2?

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Tetchytyke

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Interesting then that it was the only bit that had safeguarding removed and an attempt to sell of property as soon as possible. The word sabotage comes to mind.
The Telegraph has a long article on this, explaining the complete chaos that these decisions are causing in the villages blighted by this whole fiasco. Safeguarding hasn't been dropped and so the poor sods along the proposed along the route are stuck in limbo, unable to sell up and unable to move. Villages have been destroyed by HS2. Time to get rid of safeguarding and let these poor people move on with their lives.


Kathy O’Donoghue stands outside the Methodist chapel that is something of a focal point for the quiet Cheshire village of Lostock Green. With snow covering its roof and icicles dangling from its gables, it’s quite the picturesque, wintry scene. But it’s also at the literal centre of a furious HS2 debate that shows no signs of ending – despite Phase 2 of the route being scrapped 14 months ago.

“This is the compensation line,” points out O’Donoghue, the parish council’s HS2 Liaison Officer. “Look that way, and there are 21 houses in this little village now owned by HS2. Some are in a state of disrepair, some are empty and a few are rented out. HS2 has changed the whole character of the village – we were quite a close-knit community.

“We want the houses in our community back – and that’s just the start.”

But it’s not happening any time soon, and villagers are exasperated at the situation.

For a very short period the Mid Cheshire Against HS2 campaign group – of which O’Donoghue is a part – celebrated Sunak’s scrapping of Phase 2. It was expected that the safeguarding measures, which effectively mean HS2 has the rights over planning and development on and next to the route, would be lifted in short order.

Connected with safeguarding, there are also still in play various property compensation schemes – and compulsory purchase orders. Once HS2 buy a property, it can’t be sold until safeguarding measures are lifted.

Hence all those empty houses. In addition, anyone owning property in a safeguarded area still has to get permission from HS2 to build an extension. Mainly, allege some property owners, so that the values remain low in case HS2 has to make a compulsory purchase.

All of which begs the question; why would HS2 have to make a compulsory purchase if HS2 isn’t being built? Chris Wilson, whose house in nearby Plumley would have overlooked a 28ft HS2 flyover – but wasn’t in any safeguarding zone – reckons he knows why.

“Well, first of all Labour winning the election changed everything again, and then the Mayors of Manchester and West Midlands said they wanted to do a lower speed, lower spec and lower cost version of HS2 to Manchester.”

Wilson’s suspicion that the HS2 story is far from over was effectively confirmed in the Commons on Thursday. When questioned on HS2 north of Birmingham, Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said the Government had “started the hard work of identifying a realistic pipeline of schemes that is affordable and will deliver better connectivity in partnership with local leaders”.

One of those schemes might be the Midlands-North West Rail Link, which is the report Wilson speaks of; commissioned by the Mayors of Greater Manchester and the West Midlands Andy Burnham and Richard Parker, it proposes a line “which still provides the capacity and connectivity benefits of HS2, but at a far lower cost,” funded in partnership with private investors.

t’s been dubbed HS2-lite, and buried in the small print of the report is a desire to “protect and prolong existing planning powers”.

Graham Dellow, secretary of Mid Cheshire Against HS2, thinks safeguarding is now unlikely to be lifted until money is found for these projects.

“But the paradox is, money will never be found for it, whether that be private or public,” he argues. “We’re in such a dire economic situation in this country, and yet with all these properties and land owned by HS2, we could actually be putting money back into the public purse.”

To prove Dellow’s point, O’Donoghue takes us to a beautiful, padlocked and very obviously empty farmhouse owned by HS2 on a country lane leading out from Lostock Green.

“Look at how laughable this is,” she says. “This house should be a family home for someone. But in the meantime, it feels like Andy Burnham is dictating what’s going on in Cheshire.
Actually we’d love to bring him out here and see for himself what building a track would mean – even just in terms of the geology. It would go through brine fields, and it could cost as much as £1bn a mile to put new track down here. Can the country really afford that?

“I want to ask Burnham if he actually knows all the facts.”

So, later that day, we do ask him. A spokesperson for Greater Manchester Combined Authority tells us that “both Andy and Richard absolutely have sympathy with residents and communities who were left in the dark around the last government’s rash decision-making around HS2”.

“We are working with the government to come to a decision as soon as possible so that residents in the Midlands and Cheshire are not left in limbo. A new line will bring countless benefits to people between the Midlands and Greater Manchester, and we will always listen to residents’ concerns and work with the Department for Transport to make sure the impacts on communities are as low as possible.”

The problem is, the residents of Cheshire have been left in limbo for years already – and there’s absolutely no sign that will change. And the impact has been immense; families were forced to move out, businesses collapsed.

Further down the “line” in Wimboldsley, there’s a very obvious example of just how damaging this lack of decision making can be. John Edge has been a dairy farmer all his life – and as he says, it’s a hard life. As he looked forward to a well-earned retirement, his intention was to sell his grand Victorian farmhouse and barns to a property developer.

The only problem being, there were plans for massive HS2 sidings just the other side of the West Coast mainline track. “Big floodlights and sheds storing and maintaining trains – actually we were going to lose 250 acres from the farm,” he says.

“We’ve had a lot of interest but nobody wants to buy it because of that safeguarded land,” he says, pausing as a West Coast train speeds northwards. “It’s too risky an investment. Meanwhile, there must be 15 or 20 properties around here that are just derelict or boarded up now because it would cost them too much in maintenance to get them tenanted. It’s taken the heart out of the community.

“So like everyone else, we are in limbo. We just want to move on – literally to a bungalow in Nantwich – but we can’t. It’s been like this for ten years, really.”

Actually, Edge does have some recourse – he could still sell to HS2 as part of its blight scheme. But it’s fraught with difficulty, the suspicion being that HS2 make “low-ball” offers or even agree to a sale and then delay payment.

“I know plenty of farmers who sold their land to HS2 and still haven’t received a penny,” says Edge. “We’re all just stuck.”

Back in Lostock Green, Dellow finds us another empty house showing signs of deterioration; there’s no-one home obviously, but the heating is going like the clappers, paid for by HS2 to keep the house in some sort of shape. In a time when winter fuel payments have become such an issue, it’s such a visible sign of waste.

“Actually, this is really a story about the complete and utter waste and incompetence, and, in my view, the lies we’ve encountered for years,” he alleges. “Two councils signed NDAs saying they would not discuss HS2 with the council tax payers who fund them. It needs to be looked into.”

But who do you ask to look into it? The MP for Lostock Green is Esther McVey, and as someone who was once Minister for Housing and Planning under the Conservatives, she’s under no illusions about the impact this is continuing to have.

“HS2 has been a nightmare for local communities for years and unbelievably it continues to be so under the radar,” she says. “Small villages in my area are left in limbo with multiple unused properties, blighting these communities.

“When Rishi Sunak announced the scrapping of HS2 Phase 2, that should have been the end of the matter, with communities able to get their lives back, but I’m afraid there are too many vested interests, and too many people getting fat on taxpayers’ money for them to allow that to happen.

“HS2 is still wasting unconscionable amounts of money, and if Angela Rayner is serious about addressing the housing shortage in this country she should ensure these houses are sold and brought back into use ASAP rather than HS2 hanging on to them in the hope that the decision to scrap it will be reversed.”

And that’s the real issue here; nobody is actually making a decision – or more pertinently, nobody knows who can make it. Is it HS2 themselves, is it the metro mayors, local councils, or is it the government?

“We are reviewing the position we have inherited on HS2 and will set out future plans for Phase 2b safeguarding in due course,” says a Department for Transport spokesperson. “Transport is an essential part of the Government’s mission to rebuild Britain and we are committed to improving rail connectivity across the North. Any land that is no longer required will be sold in line with Treasury rules through a disposal programme.”

It’s what “due course” means that has become so infuriating for these villagers, though.

“We’re stuck in this endless loop of will it happen, won’t it happen,” sighs Wilson.

“Continuously kicking the can down the road helps no-one; we could be still talking about this in ten years… and the line still won’t have been built.”

HS2 has been a national disgrace since day one. Esther McVey has accidentally revealed the truth when she said "I’m afraid there are too many vested interests, and too many people getting fat on taxpayers’ money for them to allow that to happen". Construction companies don't donate tens of millions to both political parties for nothing.
 
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Grimsby town

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The Telegraph has a long article on this, explaining the complete chaos that these decisions are causing in the villages blighted by this whole fiasco. Safeguarding hasn't been dropped and so the poor sods along the proposed along the route are stuck in limbo, unable to sell up and unable to move. Villages have been destroyed by HS2. Time to get rid of safeguarding and let these poor people move on with their lives.
Or just build the line. The only real way to stop blight is to find an alternative option (which will include blight on new people) to solve the capacity issues between Handscare and Manchester. Until that happens there'll always be the nagging doubt that HS2 or something similar will come back.

HS2 has been a national disgrace since day one. Esther McVey has accidentally revealed the truth when she said "I’m afraid there are too many vested interests, and too many people getting fat on taxpayers’ money for them to allow that to happen". Construction companies don't donate tens of millions to both political parties for nothing.
Esther Mcvey is simultaneously complaining that Knutsford doesn't have enough trains to Manchester. What's stopping that? Oh yeah, lack of capacity between Stockport and Manchester. She doesn't have clue when it comes to railways.
 

The Planner

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HS2 has been a national disgrace since day one. Esther McVey has accidentally revealed the truth when she said "I’m afraid there are too many vested interests, and too many people getting fat on taxpayers’ money for them to allow that to happen". Construction companies don't donate tens of millions to both political parties for nothing.
Using the electoral commission search site, I cannot find any donations to political parties by construction companies valued at millions in the last 5 years. Can you point to some?

 

Nottingham59

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Using the electoral commission search site, I cannot find any donations to political parties by construction companies valued at millions in the last 5 years. Can you point to some?

Most come from the wider property and constuctions sector (e.g. JCB), rather than strictly Construction companies.

A Guardian analysis of Electoral Commission data found the Conservative party had received £27.1m in donations from real estate, construction and development companies since 2010.

The party received a further £11.2m from individuals who sit on the boards of property companies or have large real estate interests. Separately, Tory MPs received more than £850,000 in gifts and donations from companies and individuals connected to the construction industry in the same period.

The £39m in combined party and MP donations to the Conservatives from property interests is 13 times the £2.7m donated to the Labour party or its MPs in the same period: £2.3m from property companies, £401,000 from individuals and £271,000 to its MPs.

This £39m includes more than £2m in the past 18 months: the party received £1.9m in donations from property companies and £567,000 from individuals with links to them.

Countywide Developments – of which the property developer Tony Gallagher is director – has given £4.3m to the Conservative party since 2010, including £385,000 since January 2022.

John Bloor has donated £3.1m to the party since 2010 through his various companies.

Other companies that have donated large amounts include Bridgemere UK, which provides development finance for UK housebuilders and developers, and has donated £1.6m to the Conservatives since 2019. Thakeham Homes has donated £966,440 since 2017, £250,000 of it in 2022.


Individuals who have donated large amounts include the real estate investor Roger Orf (£628,000 since 2013), the luxury developer Nicholas Candy (£271,000 since 2020), and the real estate magnate Laurence S Geller (£444,000 since 2018).
 

The Ham

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On the full scheme, journey times to Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle etc would have been around 90 mins quicker than current from Reading. Even with the reduced state, its will still be an hour quicker to Manchester and likely Liverpool too - haven't done the calculations to Glasgow. Not only that, more frequent and more seats and relieving the cross country service. If Heathrow Southern were to go ahead, a better route to OOC would be the extend the Heathrow express down to Southampton/Bournemouth.

Very few people realise these connections will be possible - a lot of "why would I want to go to Old Oak Common?". You will do, you will

Thanks, just for clarification when I said a journey time saving of 60 minutes it was from Southampton, so had allowed for a fairly generous change time at Reading and OOC.

Well yes, SNCF advised that because they don't actually want to serve their intermediate stations.
They end up built entirely in the middle of nowhere, given the very low population density of much of France. The distances between stops on the LGVs are long because there is virtually noone around to serve, Paris-Lyon is equivalent to London-Newcastle. Paris-Marseille gets you pretty much to Aberdeen.

The situation in the UK is rather different - the majority of trains on HS1 serve all stations that the trains pass through.

Excluding international travel the TGV network varies something like 100 million passengers a year, which is what HS2 was predicted to also carry, just over a much more compact network (even allowing for lines which HS2 trains run in but aren't part of the HS2 infrastructure)

Yet HS2 will be a net contributor of carbon, even over the projected life span of the infrastructure.




This is the trouble with HS2: none of the supposed benefits of the infrastructure project can stand up to even the merest scrutiny.

As others have pointed out, it depends on government policy. If carbon emissions were as important as all that (if you take what people say about not building HS2) they would be banning for motorways to be closed.

Actually, the emissions from motorways are so bad that is you could build HS2 three times over yours only need to close something like 100 miles of motorways to offset the emissions.

In the original business plan the supposed largest benefit was increased speeds.

The HS2 website now says all sorts of things it didn't say before.


The original budget was £37M. What are we up to now? And how many miles of operational railway do we have to show for it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Yet it was phase two that was the first to get binned off when they ran out of other people's money.

The original goal of HS2 was to create capacity, as the letter on this link confirms:


(Note the source, so is unlikely to have been changed by HS2 Ltd)

Although to be fair to you the biggest cost benefit is from reduced journey times, although that's different point to the main reason for building it.


The government website says it is funded by a grant.





Fair point; it probably is all waving a damp finger in the air. But those are the government predictions.

But the poster I quoted was arguing that £9.5bn savings could be attributed due to reduced carbon. It can't be both £9.5bn of savings and just all waving a damp finger in the air.

The £9.5bn was due to meeting carbon reductions in all travel and not necessarily specifically related to HS2. However HS2 could provide rail capacity to encourage a modal shift from road travel by making rail travel a more viable option.

As it's all travel, a lot of the health benefits from reduced carbon emissions aren't from the carbon, but rather from the pollution which is directly linked to the production of carbon.

In the article linked, there was a larger figure of savings to the NHS by meeting household carbon reductions due to being able to phase out gas boilers.

Things like being able to reduce the amount of medication which needs to be provided to those with asthma because the air quality is better may not sound like much, however it's all the healthcare staff time in monitoring, prescribing, and the like which are significantly to that.

To give an alternative example, a child grows up living in a home with cats, they have asthma. They leave home and find that actually what they have is an allergy to the cats and when they are not at home they don't need to use any medication (no they didn't grow out of it, as when they visit their parents they then have to take the medication again).

If we could clean up our cities, it could be that there wouldn't be such demand for countryside living for the fresh air, as the cities could be clean enough for more people.
 

Tetchytyke

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The Planner

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Most come from the wider property and constuctions sector (e.g. JCB), rather than strictly Construction companies.

So not construction companies donating to make money back from HS2 then. JCB have a vested interest indirectly to any building project.
 

FMerrymon

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JCB presumably had a "vested interest" in the cancellation of HS2 with the last government promising to "redirect hs2 funding" to road maintenance to fix potholes.


Esther McVey has a "vested interest" in campaigning against HS2 as her constituents didn't want a rail line being built near them. Wouldn't mind so much if she stuck to facts https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...3CE469D8B/HighSpeedRail(Crewe-Manchester)Bill

"108 ancient woodlands", misunderstanding the modal shift figures, the 120 year carbon repayment (which again a misreading of the report). Also note Greg Smith's questionable contribution who should know the answer to his question since he was on the TSC at the time. Again I think it highlights another reason for the original question for this thread. I'm curious if they were aware their contributions are misleading? Smith should have certainly been aware.
 

Grimsby town

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While not HS2 or Crossrail related, I think this bbc articles on East West Rail is relevant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d5p6ve3zeo
Councillors have voted to oppose part of a major railway line being built through their district.
Bedford Borough Council wants the East West Rail (EWR) line to be made up of four tracks, rather than six, in the Poets area north of the town.
Thirty-seven homes would need to be demolished in order to accommodate the two additional tracks.
So despite EWR directly benefiting Bedford, the council are still partially against it because of demolition. It seems that no matter how a community benefits from rail, demolishing homes is seen as unacceptable which makes building major infrastructure very difficult in an already constrained UK built environment.
 

greataj

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As people have pointed out, Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) has had obvious benefits in cross-London connectivity, decongesting the tube and in turn also allowing easier interchange from communities in and around London with key terminus stations for onward national connectivity. The number of people directly benefitting from Crossrail simply far outweighs that of HS2.

It's also poorly integrated with the rest of the network. We should be completing both EWR and indeed Crossrail 2 before even contemplating HS2.

EWR is most critical in improving Intercity connectivity without the need to travel great distances into a London terminus and back out. This not only has the potential to reduce journey times but also frees up capacity at London terminus stations by taking out a chunk of footfall that's using them purely to connect to other parts of the country.

Crossrail 2 equally would enjoy the same level of success as the Elizabeth Line in a north-south direction. In particular, 4-tracking the WAML so it actually gets a full commuter service running alongside improved speeds on longer distance journeys is something I'm sure anyone would agree is long overdue. Along that route you also have Stansted, the next London airport that has runway capacity to grow, but sub-optimal surface access to get to it. So this is exactly the kind of project that would be fully integrated to greater transportation needs.

HS2 fails on all those benefits, in fact it even goes as far as to undo some of their benefit, EWR especially. It will cause slower journeys elsewhere, or rather prevent other existing routes from future improvement as they get burdened soley with slower freight and commuter traffic. Also, by putting exponentially faster journeys between the likes of Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool to London will encourage traditional behaviors of travel to main city terminus stations and back out rather than using regional and cross-country routes, in turn congesting the London system again.

For a project that's long been sold on the prospect of 'levelling up', I can't help but feel it to some extent does the contrary.
 

A S Leib

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Crossrail 2 equally would enjoy the same level of success as the Elizabeth Line in a north-south direction. In particular, 4-tracking the WAML so it actually gets a full commuter service running alongside improved speeds on longer distance journeys is something I'm sure anyone would agree is long overdue. Along that route you also have Stansted, the next London airport that has runway capacity to grow, but sub-optimal surface access to get to it. So this is exactly the kind of project that would be fully integrated to greater transportation needs.
Would building Crossrail 2 before Crossrail have been more beneficial, especially given the amount it would have relieved Waterloo? Would Crossrail have gone ahead first without having connected Canary Wharf and the City of London to Heathrow, and how differently would things have been if Great Western Main Line electrification had taken place decades earlier?

Either way, I doubt building Crossrail 2 now, as beneficial as it would be, would be received well outside the south east without tonnes of (needed) investment elsewhere.
HS2 fails on all those benefits, in fact it even goes as far as to undo some of their benefit, EWR especially
Maybe in some cases, but, sticking with EWR as the example, I'd suspect Milton Keynes journeys northwards to stay on existing lines – especially if Birmingham and Manchester are the two places initially served by HS2 from London – a direct service might mean Oxford – Birmingham / Manchester passengers stay with CrossCountry, especially if with longer services, and whilst it wouldn't get passengers off of intercity lines, an eastern branch could free up capacity for more intercity calls at Bedford so changing at Nottingham becomes more attractive than going via St. Pancras.
 

The Ham

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Crossrail 2 equally would enjoy the same level of success as the Elizabeth Line in a north-south direction. In particular, 4-tracking the WAML so it actually gets a full commuter service running alongside improved speeds on longer distance journeys is something I'm sure anyone would agree is long overdue. Along that route you also have Stansted, the next London airport that has runway capacity to grow, but sub-optimal surface access to get to it. So this is exactly the kind of project that would be fully integrated to greater transportation needs.

Part of the issue with Crossrail 2 is the lack of understanding of the wider benefits beyond Long, like the curve +50% uplift to train frequencies beyond Woking (Which with works in the WofE line could see more services to Yeovil and even Exeter).

Would building Crossrail 2 before Crossrail have been more beneficial, especially given the amount it would have relieved Waterloo? Would Crossrail have gone ahead first without having connected Canary Wharf and the City of London to Heathrow, and how differently would things have been if Great Western Main Line electrification had taken place decades earlier?

Either way, I doubt building Crossrail 2 now, as beneficial as it would be, would be received well outside the south east without tonnes of (needed) investment elsewhere.

Whilst there's clearly a need for far more rail investment everywhere some of that would be delivered by HS2 (extra platform capacity at Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds stations for local services) and some more could be delivered by longer trains.

Part of the issue with HS2 objections is that many of those who were wanting other investment were aligning with those who were anti rail.

A classic example was "we need better east west rail in the north" but that was being delivered ahead of HS2, yes it may not have been NPR/HS3, but that was due to follow after HS2. The cancellation of HS2 means that NPR/HS3 is also less likely to go ahead (if nothing else the cost of the platforms at Leeds and Manchester would likely need to be added to the NPR/HS3 budget making it more costly for the same benefit).

Maybe in some cases, but, sticking with EWR as the example, I'd suspect Milton Keynes journeys northwards to stay on existing lines – especially if Birmingham and Manchester are the two places initially served by HS2 from London – a direct service might mean Oxford – Birmingham / Manchester passengers stay with CrossCountry, especially if with longer services, and whilst it wouldn't get passengers off of intercity lines, an eastern branch could free up capacity for more intercity calls at Bedford so changing at Nottingham becomes more attractive than going via St. Pancras.

From Reading or south would be quicker via OOC to Birmingham and beyond, so would free up XC capacity through Oxford (not all as some would prefer the direct train)
 

telstarbox

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Here's a related question. Crossrail is being partly repaid by development tax (Mayoral CIL) which varies by London borough i.e. sites in Westminster pay more than in Bromley. This makes sense as developments in London benefit from the additional connectivity.

Is there any such arrangement for paying for HS2 or is it all coming from future fares / infrastructure charges?
 

Grimsby town

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Here's a related question. Crossrail is being partly repaid by development tax (Mayoral CIL) which varies by London borough i.e. sites in Westminster pay more than in Bromley. This makes sense as developments in London benefit from the additional connectivity.

Is there any such arrangement for paying for HS2 or is it all coming from future fares / infrastructure charges?
As far as I'm aware there's nothing like that directly funding HS2 phase 1. Manchester Airport station was supposed to have some sort of local funding stream but I don't think this was every agreed, at least not publicly.
 

Nottingham59

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Manchester Airport station was supposed to have some sort of local funding stream but I don't think this was every agreed, at least not publicly.
I'm sure it was never agreed. And I can't see Manchester Airport ever paying for a four-platform second station to be built a mile away from the first, in a box 20 metres underground.

The idea of an Airport station on HS2 was misconceived. How many people on a flight arriving at Manchester are heading to London? Perhaps three or five? Ten if you're lucky.

Routing HS2 close to the airport means that the Manchester HS2 tunnel is twice as long and twice as expensive as it needs to be; HS2 trains to Manchester have to crawl at 230kph; rail users driving to the station to go to London won't be able to park; and interchange between the classic and HS2 stations will be impractical. The station itself will be two or three times as expensive as a simple surface station with a huge free car park next to the motorways somewhere out in Cheshire.
 

Peter Sarf

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As people have pointed out, Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) has had obvious benefits in cross-London connectivity, decongesting the tube and in turn also allowing easier interchange from communities in and around London with key terminus stations for onward national connectivity. The number of people directly benefitting from Crossrail simply far outweighs that of HS2.
True
It's also poorly integrated with the rest of the network. We should be completing both EWR and indeed Crossrail 2 before even contemplating HS2.
A lot of the poor integration of HS2 is because it was deemed necessary to keep it separate. HS2 would of course have gained integration with Phase2 !.
EWR is most critical in improving Intercity connectivity without the need to travel great distances into a London terminus and back out. This not only has the potential to reduce journey times but also frees up capacity at London terminus stations by taking out a chunk of footfall that's using them purely to connect to other parts of the country.
I suspect the number of passengers benefiting from EWR is an order of magnitude less than those needing London as their destination/start-point. But it would take some pressure of services. I also think EWR is going to run aground East of Bedford where a new line is required.
Crossrail 2 equally would enjoy the same level of success as the Elizabeth Line in a north-south direction. In particular, 4-tracking the WAML so it actually gets a full commuter service running alongside improved speeds on longer distance journeys is something I'm sure anyone would agree is long overdue. Along that route you also have Stansted, the next London airport that has runway capacity to grow, but sub-optimal surface access to get to it. So this is exactly the kind of project that would be fully integrated to greater transportation needs.
My bold. But there is a difference compared to both Crossrail1 (Elizabeth line) and HS2. Crossrail2 involves upgrading existing routes (WAML) and we know how much that cost and gained on the WCML - that is why HS2 was attractive.
HS2 fails on all those benefits, in fact it even goes as far as to undo some of their benefit, EWR especially. It will cause slower journeys elsewhere, or rather prevent other existing routes from future improvement as they get burdened soley with slower freight and commuter traffic. Also, by putting exponentially faster journeys between the likes of Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool to London will encourage traditional behaviors of travel to main city terminus stations and back out rather than using regional and cross-country routes, in turn congesting the London system again.

For a project that's long been sold on the prospect of 'levelling up', I can't help but feel it to some extent does the contrary.
Of course Crossrail2 would be obviously not benefiting anywhere North of the South East, same as Crossrail1 and EWR. HS2 is a better bet for levelling up but really needed to justify or otherwise rely-on a link from Manchester to Leeds (call it Crossrail North if you like).
 

FMerrymon

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A lot of the poor integration of HS2 is because it was deemed necessary to keep it separate. HS2 would of course have gained integration with Phase2 !.

I don't understand why it's considered to be poorly integrated. Every station is connected to an existing station, uses an existing station or provides a brand new interchange. Its highly integrated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The idea of an Airport station on HS2 was misconceived. How many people on a flight arriving at Manchester are heading to London? Perhaps three or five? Ten if you're lucky.

Routing HS2 close to the airport means that the Manchester HS2 tunnel is twice as long and twice as expensive as it needs to be; HS2 trains to Manchester have to crawl at 230kph; rail users driving to the station to go to London won't be able to park; and interchange between the classic and HS2 stations will be impractical. The station itself will be two or three times as expensive as a simple surface station with a huge free car park next to the motorways somewhere out in Cheshire.

Its not just about getting to London from the airport, firstly because hs2 doesn't just connect you to London. That section of line was intended to be shared with future npr from Liverpool, Warrington, Chester to the west and Leeds/York etc to the east, so it provides good connectivity to Manchester Airport which has better international connections than smaller airports in the area (and potentially make those smaller airports redundant).

In addition, it has good road connectivity making it a good location for a parkway station which many in South Manchester use Stockport for. Wouldn't take much to connect to metrolink. There was a proposal for a big housing build between the station and Altrincham. The current lines between Manchester and the airport are getting busy.

140mph is standard for the urban tunneling on hs2 since the trains would be slowing down and it reduces the expense, as these are already the most expensive parts of the route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Here's a related question. Crossrail is being partly repaid by development tax (Mayoral CIL) which varies by London borough i.e. sites in Westminster pay more than in Bromley. This makes sense as developments in London benefit from the additional connectivity.

Is there any such arrangement for paying for HS2 or is it all coming from future fares / infrastructure charges?

I'm surprised this wasn't done for OOC, Arden cross and Digbeth. Then there are the housing and business opportunities right along the wcml that's freed up for a better service or around new stations made possible by HS2 such as Coventry East. It's mentioned in the 2010 whitepaper that would look into opportunities in this way, but not sure why it wasn't pursued.

How much has the value of the land Cargiant owns in OOC increased by? Considerably I expect and part of the reason for their fight to hold on to it.
 
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Peter Sarf

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I'm sure it was never agreed. And I can't see Manchester Airport ever paying for a four-platform second station to be built a mile away from the first, in a box 20 metres underground.

The idea of an Airport station on HS2 was misconceived. How many people on a flight arriving at Manchester are heading to London? Perhaps three or five? Ten if you're lucky.

Routing HS2 close to the airport means that the Manchester HS2 tunnel is twice as long and twice as expensive as it needs to be; HS2 trains to Manchester have to crawl at 230kph; rail users driving to the station to go to London won't be able to park; and interchange between the classic and HS2 stations will be impractical. The station itself will be two or three times as expensive as a simple surface station with a huge free car park next to the motorways somewhere out in Cheshire.
Yes it is odd that it was not deemed necessary for HS2 serve Heathrow directly with all its international travellers that could be weaned of a connecting internal flights BUT Manchester with not so many worldwide flights can justify a call by HS2.
I don't understand why it's considered to be poorly integrated. Every station is connected to an existing station, uses an existing station or provides a brand new interchange. Its highly integrated.
I was assuming he was thinking in terms of connecting lines. Yes it hits enough of the existing lines with shared stations.
Its not just about getting to London from the airport, firstly because hs2 doesn't just connect you to London. That section of line was intended to be shared with future npr from Liverpool, Warrington, Chester to the west and Leeds/York etc to the east, so it provides good connectivity to Manchester Airport which has better international connections than smaller airports in the area (and potentially make those smaller airports redundant).
That would explain it. So HS2 is hitching a ride on the actual Manchester Crossrail line (as in Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - ECML) rather than just connecting with it. Umlike Crossrail (Elizabeth line) where HS2 is just an interchange station.
In addition, it has good road connectivity making it a good location for a parkway station which many in South Manchester use Stockport for. Wouldn't take much to connect to metrolink. There was a proposal for a big housing build between the station and Altrincham. The current lines between Manchester and the airport are getting busy.
I agree a South Manchester parkway is ideal for HS2. Goes against my instincts it bringing more traffic to the Manchester airport area.
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How much has the value of the land Cargiant owns in OOC increased by? Considerably I expect and part of the reason for their fight to hold on to it.
Ironic that the world of cars gets benefit from the railway !.
 

Grimsby town

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Yes it is odd that it was not deemed necessary for HS2 serve Heathrow directly with all its international travellers that could be weaned of a connecting internal flights BUT Manchester with not so many worldwide flights can justify a call by HS2.
I agree a South Manchester parkway is ideal for HS2. Goes against my instincts it bringing more traffic to the Manchester airport area.

Ironic that the world of cars gets benefit from the railway !.
The original reasoning given for a station in the area was go serve as a south Manchester/north Cheshire parkway. I believe two final options were considered, the chosen location near the airport and a station near the M6 Knutsford. The airport station was chosen because of the potential for team and bus connections. The actual airport didn't figure too much in the decision.

There's significant potential for brownfield development on car parks at the airport which an HS2 station would support. That's where the value to the airport comes from rather than flights. There's also potential for a greenfield housing development near the station.

I think any private sector or local government contributions would be small compared to the overall cost. The north doesn't have the land value that London has. I doubt it'd be enough to sway public opinion towards HS2.
 
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