1992TS-30 Years, still going strong?

[RacsoMoquette]

After multiple long journeys on the Central Line, to and from Epping to Central London, I was actually impressed with the performance of the 1992TS and I was surprised at how fresh and crisp the traction motors were! Considering they are as old as the completely dilapidated SE Networkers and yet they seem to operate (From a passenger viewpoint) perfectly well! Apart from the DC motor saga, the trains seem in every respect good apart from the latter!

 

[Crithylum]

Were you on a refurbished train? My last journey on the Central line the ride quality made the S stock and class 345s that I rode in the same journey feel like a Rolls Royce. As well as a collapsed cushion, dismal lighting, and flaky paintwork.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Were you on a refurbished train? My last journey on the Central line the ride quality made the S stock and class 345s that I rode in the same journey feel like a Rolls Royce. As well as a collapsed cushion, dismal lighting, and flaky paintwork.

Intresting observations! I have also noticed these drawbacks, but the ride is far smoother and superior to the 1995/1996TS which jerk violently in to life from a standstill!

 

[Crithylum]

Intresting observations! I have also noticed these drawbacks, but the ride is far smoother and superior to the 1995/1996TS which jerk violently in to life from a standstill!

I think the driving is Seltrac's fault, not the train.

 

[Silent]

I will miss the motor noise when it’s replaced with ac ones. I don’t use Central line often but recently go to South Ruislip station. I think dc motors sound smooth and warm. Probably dc motor noise covers more frequencies in a more equal way? AC motors can sound interesting but also too clean or clinical which can mildly feel a bit harsh to me. 1996 ts is jerky and the motors also make a vibrating noise when stopping or accelerating but it feels and looks healthy to me. I think the 24 stock is going to make the 96 ts look dated to me though as I was recently on the Jubilee line and could notice the gaps in doors and feel the cold coming from the doors. I think hvac system on 24 ts means that the doors will be better sealed and that might make some visual/ride noise difference. Also the glass probably would noticeably look better sealed I imagine.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I will miss the motor noise when it’s replaced with ac ones. I don’t use Central line often but recently go to South Ruislip station. I think dc motors sound smooth and warm. Probably dc motor noise covers more frequencies in a more equal way? AC motors can sound interesting but also too clean or clinical which can mildly feel a bit harsh to me. 1996 ts is jerky and the motors also make a vibrating noise when stopping or accelerating but it feels and looks healthy to me. I think the 24 stock is going to make the 96 ts look dated to me though as I was recently on the Jubilee line and could notice the gaps in doors and feel the cold coming from the doors. I think hvac system on 24 ts means that the doors will be better sealed and that might make some visual/ride noise difference. Also the glass probably would noticeably look better sealed I imagine.

I agree the 1996TS are starting to look quite dated! I mean its not surprising considering how intensively utilised the 1995 and 1996TS are operated! Though something about the 1992TS fleet still feels modern and futuristic, I think the panoramic windows and large windows on the doors really ages them well! The Seltrac ATO system on the 1995 and 1996TS is awful from a passenger and operational perspective, as the ride quality is poor with lots of jerking and sudden stops, while operationally it causes stress on the bogies and couple components (Remember the chronic 2019 shortage of 1996TS due to hairline cracks on the couples? Let’s hope the the symptoms don’t occur with the 1995TS!

 

[Silent]

To me visually the 96ts look in better condition than 92ts but then the service patterns, taped cabs and reduced frequency which seems to have changed from every 1-3 minutes to every 3-6 minutes recently, shows that they are overworked and weren’t built for the intensity in service that they do. The 92 ts look modern but old to me. Kind of nostalgic.
The Seltrac system seems to make it operate almost as fast as the Met line, Wembley Park to Finchley Road, on morning rush hours. But it was probably poorly designed for the tube stock that uses it or vice versa.

 

[bramling]

To me visually the 96ts look in better condition than 92ts but then the service patterns, taped cabs and reduced frequency which seems to have changed from every 1-3 minutes to every 3-6 minutes recently, shows that they are overworked and weren’t built for the intensity in service that they do. The 92 ts look modern but old to me. Kind of nostalgic.
The Seltrac system seems to make it operate almost as fast as the Met line, Wembley Park to Finchley Road, on morning rush hours. But it was probably poorly designed for the tube stock that uses it or vice versa.

Part of the problem with the Jubilee is there’s never really been enough 96 stock for the level of service that has been desired to operate.

In that sense it’s ironic that the JLE invested heavily in providing large amounts of space on stations, generous provision of escalators et cetera, yet seems to have skimped on rolling stock provision, though with the added issue of lack of stabling space too.

Guess this shows just how much demand has increased since the 1990s, especially off-peak. I don’t think Stratford was ever envisaged to become the massive hub that it has.

95 stock hasn’t quite had this problem, and has always been the superior of the two stocks. Firstly through having the benefit of coming after the 96 stock so managed to refine some issues, and secondly being maintained by Alstom has generally been a success story - albeit an expensive one. But there are signs that the 95 stock is starting to feel strain now as well. Intensive service, Battersea being opened with no extra trains, night tube, ATO are all taking their toll.

One of the problems of the PPP was that it concentrated on end-deliverables. You wouldn’t decorate a room by ignoring structural issues and just papering over cracks, yet this seems to be exactly what happened in a lot of cases. We are now starting to see the outcome of this in so many different areas.

 

[Silent]

Off topic but I even think too many escalators in one place at the stations might lead to overcrowding if trains aren’t frequent enough hence the Lizz line doesn’t seem to have as many escalators and newer station designs seem to focus on long passageways. I don’t use JLE often though.

 

[GFE]

I don't think the 92 stock has covered itself in glory over the years - I believe it has consistently been the most unreliable and most expensive of the LUL stocks to own (probably even more so than the leased northern line stock)
It was perhaps the first of a new tech era (with regen braking, Predominantly Aluminum, ATO driving etc) but there have been an awful lot "improvements" and reworks done on it over its life so far (not least the latest £1/2M CLIP refurb/equipment update.) Triggers broom has been jokingly mentioned more than once !!

 

[bramling]

I don't think the 92 stock has covered itself in glory over the years - I believe it has consistently been the most unreliable and most expensive of the LUL stocks to own (probably even more so than the leased northern line stock)
It was perhaps the first of a new tech era (with regen braking, Predominantly Aluminum, ATO driving etc) but there have been an awful lot "improvements" and reworks done on it over its life so far (not least the latest £1/2M CLIP refurb/equipment update.) Triggers broom has been jokingly mentioned more than once !!

Up until the mid-2010s the 92 stock by and large delivered a decent outcome for the end user, albeit that the stock has always scored poorly in ambience satisfaction surveys - the latter probably because the interior has been made very drab with choices like having a mismatched drab blue moquette, cool lighting, and general poor upkeep.

When they work they aren’t bad trains, the problem is there are numerous fundamental issues that LU seem to have just placed on the backburner, seemingly just hoping that they will go away - or perhaps more accurately become someone other manager’s problem. So over time things have just got worse and worse.

They aren’t the only LU stock to have degenerated into issues over the same timespan. Jubilee is starting to head the same say, and even the Northern isn’t what it was. Meanwhile the Piccadilly fleet has degenerated into a mess as well, the reasons for which aren’t entirely clear.

 

[Thirteen]

You have to wonder if the 1995 and 1996 stock will be able to get to 40 years before getting replaced or if they'll have to wait until the 2040s?

 

[GFE]

In the current financial climate (for both TFL and other rail operators) there appears minimal new "capital" funds for public investment in New stock - we seem to have to keep what we've got "going/safe" despite the increasing costs of even doing basics let alone cosmetic/optional things.
We'll have to see what the Government spend review concludes

 

[Thirteen]

In the current financial climate (for both TFL and other rail operators) there appears minimal new "capital" funds for public investment in New stock - we seem to have to keep what we've got "going/safe" despite the increasing costs of even doing basics let alone cosmetic/optional things.
We'll have to see what the Government spend concludes

They'll have to invest in new rolling stock, there's only so long you can keep old rolling stock running before it hits critical failure levels. TfL are replacing the CR4000s because it's cheaper to replace them than to make do and mend.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't think the 92 stock has covered itself in glory over the years - I believe it has consistently been the most unreliable and most expensive of the LUL stocks to own (probably even more so than the leased northern line stock)
It was perhaps the first of a new tech era (with regen braking, Predominantly Aluminum, ATO driving etc) but there have been an awful lot "improvements" and reworks done on it over its life so far (not least the latest £1/2M CLIP refurb/equipment update.) Triggers broom has been jokingly mentioned more than once !!

Agreed, as often happens with pioneers of new technology, they have lots teething troubles and get out of date more quickly than the "tried and trusted" previous generation.

Add to that the excessively large windows curving into the ceiling making the interior like a greenhouse in summer when the trains are on the surface, and making the seating too low, I won't miss them when they are replaced.

 

[act94]

Up until the mid-2010s the 92 stock by and large delivered a decent outcome for the end user, albeit that the stock has always scored poorly in ambience satisfaction surveys - the latter probably because the interior has been made very drab with choices like having a mismatched drab blue moquette, cool lighting, and general poor upkeep.

When they work they aren’t bad trains, the problem is there are numerous fundamental issues that LU seem to have just placed on the backburner, seemingly just hoping that they will go away - or perhaps more accurately become someone other manager’s problem. So over time things have just got worse and worse.

They aren’t the only LU stock to have degenerated into issues over the same timespan. Jubilee is starting to head the same say, and even the Northern isn’t what it was. Meanwhile the Piccadilly fleet has degenerated into a mess as well, the reasons for which aren’t entirely clear.

The brown/beige interior panelling on the 92TS makes them feel so much older to me. It’s a very 90’s design choice which hasn’t aged well.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

The brown/beige interior panelling on the 92TS makes them feel so much older to me. It’s a very 90’s design choice which hasn’t aged well.

When they entered service with the new moquette, the interior colour scheme was very purple! It did drown out the bilious "Ivory interior Shell Panelling"
i.e. the moquette when new looked very purple, exacerbated by the red grabrails!

 

[Recessio]

Agreed, as often happens with pioneers of new technology, they have lots teething troubles and get out of date more quickly than the "tried and trusted" previous generation.

It's noticeable on National Rail that a lot of late 80s/early 90s units of similar vintage have already been withdrawn or having huge problems with obsolete parts, while some of the older BR units are still going fairly strong.

 

[Silent]

The brown/beige interior panelling on the 92TS makes them feel so much older to me. It’s a very 90’s design choice which hasn’t aged well.

It seems very 80’s. I remember mcw metro bus having similar colours. I wonder why?

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Up until the mid-2010s the 92 stock by and large delivered a decent outcome for the end user, albeit that the stock has always scored poorly in ambience satisfaction surveys - the latter probably because the interior has been made very drab with choices like having a mismatched drab blue moquette, cool lighting, and general poor upkeep.

When they work they aren’t bad trains, the problem is there are numerous fundamental issues that LU seem to have just placed on the backburner, seemingly just hoping that they will go away - or perhaps more accurately become someone other manager’s problem. So over time things have just got worse and worse.

They aren’t the only LU stock to have degenerated into issues over the same timespan. Jubilee is starting to head the same say, and even the Northern isn’t what it was. Meanwhile the Piccadilly fleet has degenerated into a mess as well, the reasons for which aren’t entirely clear.

Yes when they work they perform excellently! The choice for fully motored axles really makes them accelerate well, and they are suited to the intensive service schedules of the Central Line. But has the lengthy list of problems with the trains been due to poor maintenance during the PPP or inherent design flaws or build quality problems? I understand that the Stock was built on the cheap, but could the problems been due to neglect by Metronet? Were the Networkers built to the same quality of the 1992TS? As both were built at Derby by ABB? (BREL variants only). Recently I purchased a full compilation of Undeground News issues from 1994 and of course a lot was spared regarding the introduction of the then new 1992TS. A repeated problem was that the new stock was damaging the track, they seemed rather vague regarding the cause, but different wheel profiles and faulty brake lubricators where pointed, does anyone have further knowledge of this and can elaborate? As it seemed to be really detrimental to Central Line passengers at the time. Another trouble of the new Stock upon introduction was that if someone sat on the middle seat on the six at saloon ends. It would interfere with the computer controlling the brakes, and the driver often had to reset the system, again would anyone who knows more elaborate?

 

[AndrewP]

They are not doing badly - most of the 1962 stock they replaced only lasted 33 years

 

[Silent]

They are not doing badly - most of the 1962 stock they replaced only lasted 33 years

Yeah I think that certain lines ware out the rolling stock faster

 

[Snow1964]

It was perhaps the first of a new tech era (with regen braking, Predominantly Aluminum, ATO driving etc) but there have been an awful lot "improvements" and reworks done on it over its life

I think there must of been lot of pressure to order the production batch of trains. The 3 prototypes (three pairs of 2car which were usually coupled as 6car on Jubilee. The red, green and blue 1986 stock) should probably have been used more in service, to some extent having got them in use, they weren't exactly tested to point of what might not survive long when in heavy use.

Sort of feels like many new things weren't ironed out before build, and came as later changes and 'improvements'. Perhaps I am being harsh but it felt like London Underground ordered prototypes (as it had done with 1960 stock) then not really used the knowledge for next generation of trains, instead placing orders before the testing had revealed the good and bad.

 

[Mikey C]

They are not doing badly - most of the 1962 stock they replaced only lasted 33 years

They weren't life expired though, a few moved over to the Northern Line for further service and the older and similar 1959 stock made nearly 40 years without feeling especially worn out.

 

[GFE]

I think there must of been lot of pressure to order the production batch of trains. The 3 prototypes (three pairs of 2car which were usually coupled as 6car on Jubilee. The red, green and blue 1986 stock) should probably have been used more in service, to some extent having got them in use, they weren't exactly tested to point of what might not survive long when in heavy use.

Sort of feels like many new things weren't ironed out before build, and came as later changes and 'improvements'. Perhaps I am being harsh but it felt like London Underground ordered prototypes (as it had done with 1960 stock) then not really used the knowledge for next generation of trains, instead placing orders before the testing had revealed the good and bad.

Yes good point & perhaps that would be a good idea for follow up order for 24 stock (ie another batch after the Picc line)

 

[Thirteen]

I would imagine if the 2024 stock is a success then Siemens will likely get orders for the rest of the deep tube since TfL want to standardise like they did with the SSL.

 

[Recessio]

I would imagine if the 2024 stock is a success then Siemens will likely get orders for the rest of the deep tube since TfL want to standardise like they did with the SSL.

TfL would hope to do the Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines too. The Northern and Jubilee trains aren't currently proposed for replacement.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

TfL would hope to do the Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines too. The Northern and Jubilee trains aren't currently proposed for replacement.

By the time they've replaced the Bakerloo and Central / W&C fleet, wouldn't the Northern and Jubilee fleets be sufficiently old that it would be logical to do them as well as a further follow on?

 

[Silent]

By the time they've replaced the Bakerloo and Central / W&C fleet, wouldn't the Northern and Jubilee fleets be sufficiently old that it would be logical to do them as well as a further follow on?

Doesn’t 5-10 years mean the train design would be slightly outdated?

 

[Thirteen]

Doesn’t 5-10 years mean the train design would be slightly outdated?

I suspect whatever replaces the 1995/1996 stock won't diverge too much from the 2024 stock design should Siemens get that contract.