History of the class 376s

[Sad Sprinter]

What are the history of these often overlooked units? Were they a Connex order or was the design of a metro style train something Network SouthEast started? I remember chatting to an ex-NSE manager once who told me they were planning to focus their modernisation on London metro services in the latter 90s had privatisation not had happened.

If they were a Connex invention, why did South Central not receive these units either?

 

[Failed Unit]

I am sure the were all ordered by Connex rather than NSE. The experts will step in but are the not the same units (electostars) but the 377 have different couplers?

The 357s are also the same general unit with a different cab?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I am sure the were all ordered by Connex rather than NSE. The experts will step in but are the not the same units (electostars) but the 377 have different couplers?

The 357s are also the same general unit with a different cab?

That’s the thing, I always thought Electrostars were a BR invention that privatisation developed.

 

[JonathanH]

What are the history of these often overlooked units?

Is your title meant to be 376s?

I always understood it that the 376s arose because the Metro area needed something with more standing capacity and Connex recognised that 465s / 466s could replace VEPs on intermediate distance workings.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Is your title meant to be 376s?

I always understood it that the 376s arose because the Metro area needed something with more standing capacity and Connex recognised that 465s / 466s could replace VEPs on intermediate distance workings.

Yes…yes it is. Thanks.

 

[JonathanH]

If they were a Connex invention, why did South Central not receive these units either?

Connex weren't running South Central by the time the 376s were ordered for Southeastern. Connex ordered 377301-377328/377101-377139 for South Central, but the later units for South Central / Southern were specified by the Govia operation.

Likewise, 375601-630/701-715/301-310 were a separate order for Southeastern from 375801-830/901-927 and the 376s.

This shows that, at 10 December 2001, 210 vehicles (601-630/701-715/301-310) had been ordered for Southeastern and 240 vehicles (301-328/101-139) had been ordered for South Central

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2001-12-10/debates/2be1f17e-462f-490d-819e-3cbe9f39bf20/RailwayRollingStock?highlight=connex%20ordered#contribution-90080eec-1a9b-43f3-b4ba-d2bdfd0b37cd

Vehicles ordered, by train operating company, since 1 January 1994

Total number of vehicles ordered

Connex South Eastern 210
South Central 240

The orders for the remaining 375s, 376s and 377s were made in 2002.

Wikipedia says:

On 24 October 2000 the Shadow Strategic Rail Authority announced that Govia had been awarded the franchise and would operate it from 2003. Govia negotiated a deal with Connex to buy out the remainder of its franchise with the transaction completed in August 2001.

 

[Failed Unit]

That’s the thing, I always thought Electrostars were a BR invention that privatisation developed.

Sort of. They were a development by a “private” company of the 165 / 465. I don’t think any were ordered by BR. The 168 was the first order for the series. BR didn’t order anything prior to privatisation. Hence the famous 1064? Order gap which was broken by Chiltern after privatisation. The 365s I understand we the last trains ordered by BR as a bribe for the general election.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Class 376s also have sliding rather than plug doors to speed up alighting and boarding in metro stations, something that was carried on to the 378s for London Overground.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at the February 2002 edition of Modern Railways, there is a story titled "Connex plans 4-VEP replacement". It says:

Connex plans 4-VEP replacement

Connex South Eastern is drawing up plans for the replacement of its Class 423 (4-VEP) stock, the company's only Mk 1 stock which will not be replaced by Class 375 Electrostars currently on order. A three-point plan is envisaged:
* a new design of Metro train with 2+2 seating and generous standing space for Charing Cross inner-suburban routes (designed to overcome the criticism of the 2+3 Class 465 'Networkers' currently on these routes, that the layout is too cramped for crush-loaded conditions);
* refurbishing the displaced 2+3 seating Class 465s to replace the 2+3 Class 423s on intermediate-length routes; and
* a small batch of 2+3 Class 375s to replace the '423s' on heavily-loaded coastal services (the '375s' CSE already has on order are 2+2 layout, although some are being built for South Central with sections in 2+3 layout).

Some Class 465s would continue to be used on CSE's more lightly loaded inner-suburban routes from Victoria and Blackfriars. It is unlikely that the new Metro trains would have toilets, given the vandalism that has been experienced with those on the Networker stock.

The April 2002 edition then carried an 'Informed Sources' article where the plan for 180 Metro vehicles (45 4-car units) was discussed, with a three way competition for the fleet between Hitachi, Alstom and Bombardier. This number is then mentioned again in the May 2002 issue, together with talk of 72 Class 375/8s. However, the competition is then noted as being for 36 5-car units.

The August 2002 edition carried a piece titled "More Electrostars for Connex". It said:

More Electrostars for Connex

As previously forecast, Connex has ordered 57 new Class 375/8 EMUs, with 2+3 seating, from Bombardier, financed by HSBC Rail. This takes the Connex order to 112 trains: on a one-for-one basis this leaves 30 more slam door trains to be replaced in the operators fleet. These will be covered by cascading Class 465s when Connex receives its initial batch of 35 new Metro trains, for which a builder still has to be announced.

The September 2002 edition then carried the news, in the 'Informed Sources' section that the order was to be made for Class 376s. It said:

Connex plays it safe
Metro was a forward looking concept - but short term pressures ruled it out

Connex Metro may well have been the last gasp of the old railway procurement culture of 'let's have something optimised for our specific application'. At least until someone gets to grips seriously with HST replacement.

What sank the Connex vision of a new generation of Metro trains optimised to high-density inner-suburban services was a combination of uncertainty and time. The requirement to have all Mk 1 stock withdrawn by 31 December 2004 meant that 180 cars of Metro stock had to be in service by that date. Alstom and Hitachi were proposing new designs which immediately cast doubts on meeting the deadline - even though both firms were sure they could do it.

But there was also uncertainty over acceptance - relating both to Hitachi's ability to get an electrical safety case and the reaction of the Health & Safety Executive to the proposed Metro style interior, in particular the crashworthiness of longitudinal seating.

It was simply too much risk, and so Connex cancelled the 'Metro' procurement exercise and activated Lots 8 and 9 written into its original Electrostar contract with Adtranz what seems like an age ago. Bombardier Transportation, which has turned round Electrostar performance and image since taking over Adtranz, announced on 24 July that Connex had ordered 180 cars worth £132 million.

Benefits
at which point a pause to recognize one of the undoubted benefits of privatisation. Train operators have been weaned off their expensive custom procurement and as a result manufacturers have been able to get their teeth into long runs of standard products.

These Electrostars are costing £735,000 per vehicle. Remember how Networker cost £1 million a car? At today's prices that is roughly £1.3 million. In ten years the cost of electric multiple units has nearly halved. And Electrostar is a much more capable train.

How's it done? Well a standard design means you can work away at simplifying assembly. According to informed sources, it now takes 14 hours to assemble an Electorstar vehicle on the production line.

Maintenance will be carried out by South Eastern Train Maintenance Ltd, a joint venture between Bombardier Transportation and Connex. Bombardier will be responsible for technical support plys material supply, worth £95 million over the 30-year contract. Connex will provide the workforce, probably at Slade Green depot.

Connex will operate these 'suburban Electrostar cars adapted to the South London operation' as five-car units. Probable changes to the interior layout, aimed at providing additional standing capacity, could include lengthening the vestibules and fitting ultra-slim seating.

Delivery will start in July 2004 and be all over by Christmas, allowing Connex to meet the Mk 1 withdrawal deadline.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Looking at the February 2002 edition of Modern Railways, there is a story titled "Connex plans 4-VEP replacement". It says:



The April 2002 edition then carried an 'Informed Sources' article where the plan for 180 Metro vehicles (45 4-car units) was discussed, with a three way competition for the fleet between Hitachi, Alstom and Bombardier. This number is then mentioned again in the May 2002 issue, together with talk of 72 Class 375/8s. However, the competition is then noted as being for 36 5-car units.

The August 2002 edition carried a piece titled "More Electrostars for Connex". It said:



The September 2002 edition then carried the news, in the 'Informed Sources' section that the order was to be made for Class 376s. It said:

Thanks for these, I don’t suppose one of the articles is on a page with an accompanying picture of a class 465 in original Connex South Eastern livery at Denmark Hill? If so I own a copy of one of that issue too.

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks for these, I don’t suppose one of the articles is on a page with an accompanying picture of a class 465 in original Connex South Eastern livery at Denmark Hill? If so I own a copy of one of that issue too.

That is the April 2002 article which talked about the concept of a Metro train procurement.

Anyway, in response to your original question, it seems the 376s came about because Connex wanted to do something different with the Southeastern Metro services, which could have been radical. However, the time pressure of Mark 1 replacement meant the 376s were a compromise solution.

In passing, also from 2002, I note that 377140 to 377164 were a 'speculative' by Porterbrook rather than specifically ordered by Govia, but Govia didn't seek 'proper' Metro stock for Southern, and recall that SWR, if it had been able to procure the 32 5-car Metro 450s that became 450101-450110 / 350101-350130, could have had 5-car 455s as well.

 

[Mikey C]

The 376s may have been optimised for metro routes, but the 36 376s just added inconsistency, as it wasn't as if there were enough of them to take over the busy Charing Cross and Cannon Street routes, considering there were originally 147 465s and 43 466s.

Typically those services ended up being operated by a mixture of 376s and Networkers. The 707s have subsequently come in a replaced more of these metro Networkers, leaving even more trains which could be 12 cars, being operated by 10 car services.

And the 465/9s were a pretty underwhelming 4VEP replacement, rather than just getting some more 3+2 standard Electrostars like Southern did.

 

[Transilien]

Why didn't Connex just order more 377s for a 4VEP replacement instead of ordering a non-standard fleet? The shortcomings of the 465s and the 466s could have been easily solved through a refurbishment.

 

[JonathanH]

The 376s may have been optimised for metro routes, but the 36 376s just added inconsistency, as it wasn't as if there were enough of them to take over the busy Charing Cross and Cannon Street routes, considering there were originally 147 465s and 43 466s.

I seem to recall that the 376s basically went onto all of the 10-car Metro services previously operated by 465-465-466 formations, leaving 465s typically working the Metro services formed of 6 or 8 coaches. Clearly it was never planned that they would take over all of the Charing Cross and Cannon Street routes but they did take over the ones with the highest crush loading.

There was an analysis posted by someone on one of the gen groups at the time of the formations on Southeastern Metro following the introduction of 376s which I don't think showed a lot of 10-46x on the Metro routes.

Typically those services ended up being operated by a mixture of 376s and Networkers. The 707s have subsequently come in a replaced more of these metro Networkers, leaving even more trains which could be 12 cars, being operated by 10 car services.

Has the siding space ever existed for much 12-car operation on the Metro routes?

And the 465/9s were a pretty underwhelming 4VEP replacement, rather than just getting some more 3+2 standard Electrostars like Southern did.

It seems there might have been a bit of cost saving in play here. Someone must have done some sums about using Networkers to replace VEPs, in some cases with 6 coaches replacing 8 coaches. However, having identified the need to get more crush load capacity on the Metro routes, Networkers weren't really suitable so the plan seems to have been one of convenience.

The shortcomings of the 465s and the 466s could have been easily solved through a refurbishment.

I don't know that they can, in particular with regard to standback space in the door vestibule and equipment under the seats.

Why didn't Connex just order more 377s for a 4VEP replacement instead of ordering a non-standard fleet?

It needed to deal with crush load capacity on Metro services, as explained above.

 

[brad465]

Has the siding space ever existed for much 12-car operation on the Metro routes?

While there are limits, a number of depots/carriage sidings can do 12-car (Dartford has one operational siding capable of 16). Platforms are a bigger issue however, notably 2 of the platforms at Charing X and Woolwich Dockyard station.

 

[Mikey C]

While there are limits, a number of depots/carriage sidings can do 12-car (Dartford has one operational siding capable of 16). Platforms are a bigger issue however, notably 2 of the platforms at Charing X and Woolwich Dockyard station.

Which wouldn't affect Cannon Street services or services on the other Dartford not going via Woolwich Dockyard anyway.

You'd hope that with the replacements, SDO will be used to enable more 12 car operation, seeing that so many platforms were expensively lengthened.

 

[brad465]

Which wouldn't affect Cannon Street services or services on the other Dartford not going via Woolwich Dockyard anyway.

You'd hope that with the replacements, SDO will be used to enable more 12 car operation, seeing that so many platforms were expensively lengthened.

I hope so too, Southeastern is more 8-12 car operation than 5-10. Of course we also saw Gravesend completely remodelled to accommodate 12-car trains, but 12-car Networkers rarely called (because they're weren't enough units to form many 12-car trains), although having 3 platforms instead of 2 brought other benefits.

I imagine 376s were chosen to be 5-car to take account of the time seeing limited 12-car options; had they been ordered 7 years later (or a load of platform extension work done 7 years earlier), they could have been of a length allowing for 12-car sets. 707s of course just happened to be available and were in a way dumped on Southeastern; they didn't choose the 5-car length.