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An assault on true democracy with the same kind of goings-on that take place in, for example, contemporary Hungary.
Minorities being further marginalised, for example ethnic minorities or LGBTQ+ individuals, to name but two.
Mistreatment of immigrants and perhaps certain classes of immigrant (those without citizenship) losing the right to stay here.
Institutionalised vilification of the "intellectual liberal elite".
Perhaps increased internet surveillance so we'd all have to be extremely careful what we said about the Government online, especially with AI evolving to make it perhaps harder to remain anonymous.
All my own personal opinion and speculation.
As I said, I can see, in my opinion, them possibly resembling Fidesz or AfD or parties of that ilk.
I am also fearful of the assault on our democracy by Starmer. He has unilaterally cancelled County Council elections in four counties citing reorganisation, even though it has not been discussed or consulted on. He is for local devolution, but if the local planners do not do what he wants them to do, Angela Rayner can overrule them.
He is also starting to review the Brexit agreement, which is up for renewal in 2026. If he doesn't respect the wishes of the 2016 referendum, but cedes power to the EU, that is also a threat to our democracy.
He is also starting to review the Brexit agreement, which is up for renewal in 2026. If he doesn't respect the wishes of the 2016 referendum, but cedes power to the EU, that is also a threat to our democracy.
Please name me some benefits from Brexit. Like, actual "makes our lives much better" benefits please...
Also, I'm rather sick of all this "will of the people" (dressed up as "respect the wishes" in your post) nonsense. The referendum wasn't binding, the choice "in or out" was pathetic and the result has royally knackered this country, heck even Farage advocated we stayed in the single market
Brexit was only foisted on us because the rich elite were about to be subjected to closed tax loopholes and God forbid people like that pay their fair share...
I am also fearful of the assault on our democracy by Starmer. He has unilaterally cancelled County Council elections in four counties citing reorganisation, even though it has not been discussed or consulted on. He is for local devolution, but if the local planners do not do what he wants them to do, Angela Rayner can overrule them.
He is also starting to review the Brexit agreement, which is up for renewal in 2026. If he doesn't respect the wishes of the 2016 referendum, but cedes power to the EU, that is also a threat to our democracy.
A democratic government answerable to Parliament can redefine our relationship with the EU. The wish of the referendum was that we should leave - we left. Parliament approved the actual deal, which left the EU with some powers, and will have to approve any new deal.
I am also fearful of the assault on our democracy by Starmer. He has unilaterally cancelled County Council elections in four counties citing reorganisation, even though it has not been discussed or consulted on. He is for local devolution, but if the local planners do not do what he wants them to do, Angela Rayner can overrule them.
He is also starting to review the Brexit agreement, which is up for renewal in 2026. If he doesn't respect the wishes of the 2016 referendum, but cedes power to the EU, that is also a threat to our democracy.
2016 is getting on for 10 years ago now; it's history. Why is the historical year of 2016 any more relevant than other historical years, such as, I don't know, 1975? Who cares what people thought in 2016? It's history now. If people's desires in 2016 are so utterly relevant, then Labour should stand down now and hand over power to the Tories, because that is what we wanted in 2016.
I realise 2016 is a special year for the Right, both here and in the USA, but let's face it. It's part of history now. One may as well argue that getting rid of Thatcher in 1990 was disrespecting people's wishes in 1979, 1983 and 1987! The election of 1983, Thatcher's biggest win,was a mere 7.5 years ago in late 1990; closer than 2016 is from now. Circumstances change and 2016 is ancient history now, just like 1983 was different from 1990.
And in any case Starmer is not even attempting to rejoin, or even re-introduce FoM, so he's actually not disrespecting anyone. He's just being a little bit more friendly towards the EU than the previous Conservative government. And what's wrong with that? With real enemies such as Russia and the "enemy within" Europe of the far-right, it makes sense to me for politicians throughout the western world to stick together to counter these threats.
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A democratic government answerable to Parliament can redefine our relationship with the EU. The wish of the referendum was that we should leave - we left.
And it was more than 8 years ago. Referenda are not valid for all time, and reflect a mere snapshot of public opinion at a specific point in history, just like elections. The 1975 referendum wasn't respected for all time, after all, so neither should the 2016 one.
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The influence of George Soros over political debates and events in Britain is well documented - perhaps half a million of anti-Brexit propaganda, funding of events which favour splitting Scotland from the rest of the UK... Yes, I'm very fearful.
Ah, the old George Soros meme. The evil genius. Not.
Personally, I fear Elon Musk far more - a foreign national who seems to want to buy the result of the next election.
And it was more than 8 years ago. Referenda are not valid for all time, and reflect a mere snapshot of public opinion at a specific point in history, just like elections. The 1975 referendum wasn't respected for all time, after all, so neither should the 2016 one.
You obviously won't be happy until a referendum gives the result you want. Will you then want another one 10 years after it, to get us back out again?
Q1: What good will that do?
Q2: How much will it cost?
Q3: Do you really want to make this country a laughing stock and turn its currency into Monopoly money?
You obviously won't be happy until a referendum gives the result you want. Will you then want another one 10 years after it, to get us back out again?
Q1: What good will that do?
Q2: How much will it cost?
Q3: Do you really want to make this country a laughing stock and turn its currency into Monopoly money?
I'm notproposing a further referendum right now, to make that absolutely clear.
I am merely arguing that what people thought 10 years ago isn't necessarily what people think now.
There is a sensible argument for not running another referendum now (i.e the country has more urgent problems which need fixing at the moment) but I am arguing against the concept of what people thought at some point in history being valid for all time, which it isn't.
2016 is getting on for 10 years ago now; it's history. Why is the historical year of 2016 any more relevant than other historical years, such as, I don't know, 1975? Who cares what people thought in 2016? It's history now. If people's desires in 2016 are so utterly relevant, then Labour should stand down now and hand over power to the Tories, because that is what we wanted in 2016.
I realise 2016 is a special year for the Right, both here and in the USA, but let's face it. It's part of history now. One may as well argue that getting rid of Thatcher in 1990 was disrespecting people's wishes in 1979, 1983 and 1987! The election of 1983, Thatcher's biggest win,was a mere 7.5 years ago in late 1990; closer than 2016 is from now. Circumstances change and 2016 is ancient history now, just like 1983 was different from 1990.
And in any case Starmer is not even attempting to rejoin, or even re-introduce FoM, so he's actually not disrespecting anyone. He's just being a little bit more friendly towards the EU than the previous Conservative government. And what's wrong with that? With real enemies such as Russia and the "enemy within" Europe of the far-right, it makes sense to me for politicians throughout the western world to stick together to counter these threats.
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And it was more than 8 years ago. Referenda are not valid for all time, and reflect a mere snapshot of public opinion at a specific point in history, just like elections. The 1975 referendum wasn't respected for all time, after all, so neither should the 2016 one.
To have voted in the 1975 referendum, you would have to be at least 59 years old in 2016. To have voted in the 2016 referendum, you would be at least 26 years old now. I think Brexit has been a disaster, but would suggest that another referendum would have to wait until at least 2036, with a new generation of voters firmly established. Otherwise, it smacks of re-running the referendum until there is a chosen result, a la SNP. (While I was typing this, your above post #877 appeared - I'm glad we're on the same page regarding the second referendum, but I do think that it's not far enough away for your argument that "it's not what the country thinks now" to hold enough historical water.)
Hopefully it would also show how important referenda are. I'm too young to have been politically engaged enough to properly remember Brexit, but my recollection is that it wasn't really treated with the seriousness it deserved. It was just a way of sticking up two fingers to the government, doing something that wasn't boring austerity, maybe having some rose-tinted spectacles, and admiring a nice red bus, with a fair amount of complacency from Remain thrown into the bargain. It was the precursor, I suppose, to the "vibes politics" we seem to be infested with now the world over. Hopefully giving the referendum the respect it ought to deserve would make it clear that the country cannot be so casual and emotional about referenda in the future - but I'm not holding my breath after this year's "brat summer". Bring back critical thinking any day.
2029 or whenever the next General Election will be is a long way ahead and it’s very difficult to predict what will happen between now and then. I certainly would be very concerned if Nigel Farage and Reform continue to grow in popularity.
Although I don’t live in one of the so called Red Wall constituencies of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and South Yorkshire, I live very close. The border of Lee Anderson’s Ashfield constituency is only a few miles from me.
They were mainly ex-mining areas and were mostly represented by Labour MPs with large majorities. It’s probably fair to say that a large proportion of the electorate were working class traditional Labour voters of the Denis Skinner type. Although most remained loyal labour voters many began to lose trust in the party during Tony Blair’s time. Then came Brexit, when huge numbers of these Labour voters voted leave. This was followed in 2019 when so many of these constituencies returned a Conservative MP including unbelievable places like Mansfield and Bolsover.
At the last election the Conservatives lost all these seats and a few more with almost all of them going to Labour. It was mainly the Conservative vote which collapsed rather than a huge swing back to Labour. Many of those traditional pre 2019 Labour voters did not return to Labour but voted Reform. The Conservative vote mostly fell by around 30%, Labour gained around 7%, but worryingly the Reform vote was up by around 25%+.
The Labour Party are going to have to work very hard in the next 5 years to win back the support of the traditional working class voters in these areas if they are not lose more votes to Reform. In these areas I do not see the problem of Reform winning votes from disillusioned Tories but rather from the Lee Anderson style ‘I want my country back’ former traditional old style Labour voters. Going back 30+ years, my dad was a staunch Labour voter and trade union member, but he and many of his friends even back then were concerned about immigration and sadly somewhat racist. If he was still alive today I think he would be voting Reform rather than Labour. These are the type of people that Labour must not lose to Reform but Keir Starmer does not seem to be winning them over.
2016 is getting on for 10 years ago now; it's history. Why is the historical year of 2016 any more relevant than other historical years, such as, I don't know, 1975? Who cares what people thought in 2016? It's history now. If people's desires in 2016 are so utterly relevant, then Labour should stand down now and hand over power to the Tories, because that is what we wanted in 2016
But it was the last time there was a Referendum on the subject. Arguably it was endorsed by the 2019 General Election. I note that you are not arguing for another Referendum, so we still have to abide by it. Democracy would be threatened if it was ignored. (There is another, different question, about whether Brexit was appropriately implemented, but that's for another day.) If, at an appropriate time, there was another Referendum, I would accept the result whatever it was, and not try to overturn it.
And in any case Starmer is not even attempting to rejoin, or even re-introduce FoM, so he's actually not disrespecting anyone. He's just being a little bit more friendly towards the EU than the previous Conservative government. And what's wrong with that? With real enemies such as Russia and the "enemy within" Europe of the far-right, it makes sense to me for politicians throughout the western world to stick together to counter these threats.
I agree we need to maintain relations with Europe, but the fact is we do not know what he wants to do other that he was a Remainer. However, I would be concerned if he gave powers to the EU - e.g. the EU Court of Justice having supremacy over our Courts, or giving away coastal fishing rights etc. I accept these are rumours, but this would seem to go against the spirit of Brexit.
I am very doubtful on this.
If, as seems increasingly likely, we are looking at several more years of economic stagnation, I don't think we can say for sure that people won't vote for anyone they can outside the established duopoly.
Labour is shedding votes on the left and amongst ethnic minority voters, the Conservatives are shedding votes to the right in a big way.
I think its very difficult to project what happens but I don't think Starmer is making it to 2030!
In the event of a Tory collapse could you see Farage getting in as PM? Personally I couldn't because I think he is too extreme to win the number of seats needed for a majority. And a large percentage of the population would be terrified of the prospect (personally, I think we could see an end to full democracy if Farage got in), so we might get the unthinkable happening and dyed-in-the-wool liberal remainers voting Conservative to keep them out in seats which are likely to be a Tory/Reform tossup.
I very much doubt Farage is going to usher in the end of full democracy.
By the standards of European hard right parties, Reform is postively moderate!
I'm afraid as things continue to deteriorate then what people are terrified of will change rather rapidly.
As I said the Tories would do really well to reset themselves to a party in the Major or Cameron mould. Centre-right, pro-big-business but not reactionary and dropping all the anti-woke, anti-Europe stuff. They would not get my vote (unless tactically to keep Reform out!) but at least it would make a Tory win next time a lot more palatable.
Chosing someone like that would require the existing (post 1979) consensus to be still alive.
That consensus has been falling apart since at least 2008 and arguably before then.
The possibility of a break with that consensus increases every year.
That's is the European Court of Human Rights which is outside the EU strictures (and has UK representation) and is there to interpret the European Convention on Human Rights, also an agreement outside of the EU. The European Court of Justice is absolutely a part of the EU.
However, before we go further, I think it's probably time for me to put my moderator hat on and point the Brexit discussion towards the Brexit thread.
Members will recall that if they press the "+Quote" button (bottom right hand side of a post) of a post they wish to reply to, go to a more appropriate thread to reply to it in (in this case the Brexit thread), scroll down to the reply box, and press the "Insert quotes..." button they can easily quote posts made in one thread in another more appropriate one to making it easy to continue a discussion in a better place for it.
Probably true under any government, no guarantees. Blair's government let Rover go to the wall, what replaced all of those jobs in Longbridge?
You can argue it was poor management, which it was, but they could have stepped in and helped sort it.
Just out of interest can you clarify what you mean here? It sounds a little alarming.
Sorry to point this out but you do seem to be setting a very pessimistic tone. There must surely be something that politicians can do to make things better, right?
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Chosing someone like that would require the existing (post 1979) consensus to be still alive.
That consensus has been falling apart since at least 2008 and arguably before then.
The possibility of a break with that consensus increases every year.
Again that sounds rather like accepting the move towards right-wing populism rather than trying to change it.
Surely there must be alternative visions of the future than "everything's going to get worse" ones, right? It just needs people to make the right decisions.
Personally I'd like to see an alternative to soul-destroying pessimism. Pessimism achieves absolutely nothing besides making people miserable!
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I very much doubt Farage is going to usher in the end of full democracy.
By the standards of European hard right parties, Reform is postively moderate!
Well, currently we've had something like 16 years of economic stagnation.
Even if they are terrified of Reform et al now, will they still be so after five more years of this? Indeed five years more of likely worsening conditions?
There probably is, but it likely requires a 1979 or 1945 scale rupture with the status quo.
I don't see anything to suggest that Starmer or Badenoch, or any of the figures from their parties, is willing to countenance such a move.
The current socio-economic consensus has run out of road, but politicians are loathe to break with it. The electoral ructions that would result are unlikely to keep them in power in the medium term, if nothing else.
Right now, Labour appears to be trying to recapture the magic of the early Blair years, but in an entirely different political and economic environment.
I have no idea what Badenoch is doing, but it seems unlikely to be particularly effective given the threat from Reform.
Neither party seems to have a real policy beyond find ever more money to keep expensive, but superficially popular, policies alive for a little longer. The triple lock is the classical example but there are many others.
All in all, I have no confidence that there is anything in our future except continued decline until, eventually, the IMF forces the issue.
Maybe I'm overly cynical, but by the next election it seem like we will be looking at a lost double decade.
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No, I simply do not expect that the government will be willing to take the steps necessary to change it.
Starmer has, to a large extent, nailed his colours to the mast of the status quo, even as it disintegrates around him.
He's known he was going to be prime minister for more or less two years, hes had all the time in the world to draft bills - and yet precious little in the way of radical legislation has appeared.
Surely there must be alternative visions of the future than "everything's going to get worse" ones, right? It just needs people to make the right decisions.
The problem is that the current crop of major party politicians rather like the current system - it is the one that created them after all.
They will keep trying to tinker with it, whilst keeping the vast majority of it intact.
But if, as it is appears, the system itself is fundamentally broken, they will not be able to conceive of a way to fix it. They will just thrash around as the situation deteriorates.
The UK political and voting system prevents the likes of Farage ever gaining power. Also the fact Farage has proven to be a rather useless MP for Clacton doesn't help him either.
A lot can happen between now and the next election, there's a chance Farage may end up not standing at the next election.
I am also fearful of the assault on our democracy by Starmer. He has unilaterally cancelled County Council elections in four counties citing reorganisation, even though it has not been discussed or consulted on. He is for local devolution, but if the local planners do not do what he wants them to do, Angela Rayner can overrule them.
County leaders have been given just over three weeks to decide if they want to cancel May 2025’s elections in favour of pursuing devolution and
www.lgcplus.com
County leaders have been given just over three weeks to decide if they want to cancel May 2025’s elections in favour of pursuing devolution and reorganisation, LGC has learned.
Local government minister Jim McMahon wrote to leaders of counties and districts in two tier areas yesterday, asking them to give a “clear commitment” to devolution and reorganisation on or before 10 January if they want to “postpone” elections.
It is for the county councils to request a postponement (football supporters will know the difference between a postponement and a cancellation), which may be granted if they have given a clear commitment to devolution and reorganisation as set out in the recent White Paper.
The alternative is for those elections go ahead, with the possibility that the councils are then reorganised out of existence shortly after.
For information there are 21 upper tier county councils with 2025 elections. 18 are Conservative with the other 3 (Cambridgeshire, East Sussex and Oxfordshire) no overall control.
Neither party seems to have a real policy beyond find ever more money to keep expensive, but superficially popular, policies alive for a little longer. The triple lock is the classical example but there are many others.
All in all, I have no confidence that there is anything in our future except continued decline until, eventually, the IMF forces the issue.
And this isn't a Labour/ Tory/ Lib Dem/ Reform thing or even a UK thing. Most European governments live off a magic money tree and choose policies for political reasons with complete disregard for affordability.
Prime example are state pensions.
Too many pensioners don't seem capable of getting they never paid into a pot. There is no pot. Their tax/ NI went to pay pensioners alive when they were working and current workers are paying their pensions. The triple lock is completely unaffordable.
With Europe's impending demographic crisis, the party has to stop at some point.
Another core issue is things like pension credit and the new winter fuel payment are totally perverse. They discourage people from saving for their later years which is the exact opposite of what government policy should be doing. This is something that Labour will undoubtedly make worse as they intend to bring in more means testing.
4 legs good, 2 legs better!
According to the Madeira Times, our man of the people has been on holiday to Madeira by private jet. He stayed in a villa he didn't book himself. While there, his kids went on a "toboggan" ride. They jumped the 2 hour queue.
4 legs good, 2 legs better!
According to the Madeira Times, our man of the people has been on holiday to Madeira by private jet. He stayed in a villa he didn't book himself. While there, his kids went on a "toboggan" ride. They jumped the 2 hour queue.
I don't begrudge the Prime Minister a holiday. He didn't get one after the General Election because of the riots, and I think that had an impact through the autumn.
And what is your assessment of the security risks of having the Prime Minister's family in a queue for 2 hours, and how would you mitigate those risks?
I don't begrudge the Prime Minister a holiday. He didn't get one after the General Election because of the riots, and I think that had an impact through the autumn.
And what is your assessment of the security risks of having the Prime Minister's family in a queue for 2 hours, and how would you mitigate those risks?
No, but then don't dictate to us about climate change and then travel by private jet.
Sorry but he needs to set an example, he's prime minister and if that means no foreign holidays then that's how it is. He chose to run for the position so has to take responsibilities that go with it.
Sorry but he needs to set an example, he's prime minister and if that means no foreign holidays then that's how it is. He chose to run for the position so has to take responsibilities that go with it.
This is just such an awful take. Britain hates its political class so much it demands they live in sackcloth and ashes. The ideal candidate for being the head of our nuclear armed state takes public transport everywhere, doesn’t get on a plane, drives themselves everywhere, sends kids to state school, wears Primark, etc etc. Just an avatar of the working class or something, cosplaying at being poorer than they are.
Things won’t actually get better in this country until being a lawmaker is a serious job coveted by normal, educated, capable people, rewarded appropriately, and not dominated by weirdos who wouldn’t survive anywhere else.
Totally unserious country with very unserious, jealous, misanthropic people. We are so screwed when people think like this.
4 legs good, 2 legs better!
According to the Madeira Times, our man of the people has been on holiday to Madeira by private jet. He stayed in a villa he didn't book himself. While there, his kids went on a "toboggan" ride. They jumped the 2 hour queue.
Whatever Starmer does, for right or wrong, he and Labour will be hounded mercilessly by the UK’s predominantly right wing press as the last six months has shown.
By comparison, Johnson’s incompetence and egregious abuse of power and privilege was treated as a minor character flaw worth tolerating until his awkward relationship with the truth became unsustainable.
Starmer does though, desperately need some decent PR guidance for himself and Reeves.
By comparison, Johnson’s incompetence and egregious abuse of power and privilege was treated as a minor character flaw worth tolerating until his awkward relationship with the truth became unsustainable.
Whatever Starmer does, for right or wrong, he and Labour will be hounded mercilessly by the UK’s predominantly right wing press as the last six months has shown.
By comparison, Johnson’s incompetence and egregious abuse of power and privilege was treated as a minor character flaw worth tolerating until his awkward relationship with the truth became unsustainable.
Starmer does though, desperately need some decent PR guidance for himself and Reeves.
Whatever Starmer does, for right or wrong, he and Labour will be hounded mercilessly by the UK’s predominantly LEFT wing press as the last six months has shown.
Fixed it for you. Only the Telegraph and Mail are on the right, everything else, and the BBC, is on the left. For example, where are the calls from anywhere other than the Telegraph for a national inquiry into the grooming gangs scandal in numerous cities across the country.
By comparison, Johnson’s incompetence and egregious abuse of power and privilege was treated as a minor character flaw worth tolerating until his awkward relationship with the truth became unsustainable.
Abuse of power???? How about all of Starmer's freebies, his decision to deny us a vote in the upcoming local elections, giving away the Chagos Islands without a Vote and to a country who had no connection to them, giving money abroad for climate change projects whilst denying the Winter Fuel Allowance to our elderly, cosying up to the WASPIs before the election to get their votes before abandoning them. The list goes on and on.
Fixed it for you. Only the Telegraph and Mail are on the right, everything else, and the BBC, is on the left. For example, where are the calls from anywhere other than the Telegraph for a national inquiry into the grooming gangs scandal in numerous cities across the country.
Abuse of power???? How about all of Starmer's freebies, his decision to deny us a vote in the upcoming local elections, giving away the Chagos Islands without a Vote and to a country who had no connection to them, giving money abroad for climate change projects whilst denying the Winter Fuel Allowance to our elderly, cosying up to the WASPIs before the election to get their votes before abandoning them. The list goes on and on.
Oh let's see... ermm... On 28 August 2019, the Parliament of the United Kingdom was ordered to be prorogued by Queen Elizabeth II on the advice of the Conservative prime minister, Boris Johnson—advice which was later ruled unlawful...
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