Grand Union Trains bought by First Group?

[Class15]

No, it’s the section opening times. Have a look at 1H42 (2016 off Euston) for last Saturday night, add an hour and you will see what we mean.

Usually there is a bit of leeway built into the EAS times, to cater for late running trains (which is why NR don’t like to timetable any passenger train past 2300 at Stoke on a Saturday night) but the real problem here is the presentation time at Colwich. By the time any 2116 would turn up, the route is shut. It would be shut for a 2046 too.

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[Watershed]

That is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog though. It is perfectly normal for "rules of the route" possession times to be shortened or even given up entirely when there is disruptive work happening on other routes.

Of course there is little incentive under the current structure to make later trains work. Even 20:15 is laughably early for the last train between the capital and the second/third (delete as per your view) city.

 

[Blackpool boy]

That is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog though. It is perfectly normal for "rules of the route" possession times to be shortened or even given up entirely when there is disruptive work happening on other routes.

Of course there is little incentive under the current structure to make later trains work. Even 20:15 is laughably early for the last train between the capital and the second/third (delete as per your view) city.

Its shockingly early and makes those of us who want to visit the capital for a day trip to have a not very l.ong day trip or be forced into staying over.. And with Sundays not much fun either in northernland we probably will not be visiting London much this year coming

 

[Class15]

Its shockingly early and makes those of us who want to visit the capital for a day trip to have a not very l.ong day trip or be forced into staying over.. And with Sundays not much fun either in northernland we probably will not be visiting London much this year coming

To be fair the problem is really with Northern - as long as your destination is accessible via other operators Sundays are probably just about doable.

 

[Blackpool boy]

To be fair the problem is really with Northern - as long as your destination is accessible via other operators Sundays are probably just about doable.

You miss the point - we cant really have a day trip due to the early times for the last service to Manchester.

 

[Class15]

You miss the point - we cant really have a day trip due to the early times for the last service to Manchester.

I’m well aware of that - I was questioning your statement about Sundays.

 

[Blackpool boy]

I’m well aware of that - I was questioning your statement about Sundays.

Sorry as yuou quoted it all. But yes even if we stayed over we still wouldnt have much fun getting home either so what's the point

 

[Watershed]

I’m well aware of that - I was questioning your statement about Sundays.

On Sundays the first train is 3 hours later than on other days of the week and to add insult to injury, the journey time is about 45 mins longer (2h55m vs ~2h10m usually) as you're crawling along the Slow Lines once south of Rugby.

The result is that you can't get to London much before lunchtime, so again it's tricky to have much of a day out. And the last train back is also earlier on a Sunday than on a weekday.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I don't think it's unfair for Network Rail to schedule maintenance on a Saturday night - yes it will affect people who want to go from Manchester to London and back in a single day on a Saturday, and stay out past 8pm, but that's a fairly small number compared to those using the network at other times. I certainly wouldn't want to be doing six hours of travel (even if there are no delays!) in one day if I could avoid it!

Granted once HS2 opens it will be a quicker journey and you'd have more people making the trip, but then again you would be able to leave London later and still make the cut off for going past Stoke!

 

[Class15]

I don't think it's unfair for Network Rail to schedule maintenance on a Saturday night

It’s not, but it might have been better to leave it while there were blocks around Crewe.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't think it's unfair for Network Rail to schedule maintenance on a Saturday night - yes it will affect people who want to go from Manchester to London and back in a single day on a Saturday, and stay out past 8pm, but that's a fairly small number compared to those using the network at other times. I certainly wouldn't want to be doing six hours of travel (even if there are no delays!) in one day if I could avoid it!

Based on current schedules it would seem unreasonable not to expect a something like a 20:53 from Euston following the standard hour pattern of 1H39 (attached below)

Realtime Trains | 1H39 1853 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly | 03/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1H39 1853 departure from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on 03/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This would be ahead of what looks like the current last Intercity) train (see below) through Stoke and Macclesfield.

Realtime Trains | 1M74 1845 Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly | 03/05/2025

Real-time train running information for 1M74 1845 departure from Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly on 03/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Granted once HS2 opens it will be a quicker journey and you'd have more people making the trip, but then again you would be able to leave London later and still make the cut off for going past Stoke!

Depends if / when HS2 gets past Phase 1 including Euston

 

[The Planner]

It’s not, but it might have been better to leave it while there were blocks around Crewe.

Reduced service, so all the more reason to take it.

 

[Class15]

Reduced service, so all the more reason to take it.

But on the other hand it means no available electrified route from London to the entire North-West.

 

[The Planner]

But on the other hand it means no available electrified route from London to the entire North-West.

Nothing runs out of Euston post 2101 to the NW anyway.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Based on current schedules it would seem unreasonable not to expect a something like a 20:53 from Euston following the standard hour pattern of 1H39 (attached below)

Not when you are on a two track railway (the slow lines) all the way from Euston to Hanslope. That adds about 30 minutes into your schedule and then you can’t get further than Colwich.

 

[Class 170101]

Not when you are on a two track railway (the slow lines) all the way from Euston to Hanslope. That adds about 30 minutes into your schedule and then you can’t get further than Colwich.

Go via Stafford and then as per the XC route to Manchester surely?

 

[Watershed]

Not when you are on a two track railway (the slow lines) all the way from Euston to Hanslope. That adds about 30 minutes into your schedule and then you can’t get further than Colwich.

Once again it seems like cakeism to both close down the railway early and have a two track evening railway. It should be one or the other.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Unfortunately, this is what trying to plan services between Xmas and the new year often entails. You have to deal with multiple blocks or restrictions as well as the usual engineering shutdown periods.

Having to plan for a two track railway isn’t that uncommon for Saturday evening but, if you are a predominately fast line operator, it can also add a little complication into your resource planning if everything has to go via the slows.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I don't think it's unfair for Network Rail to schedule maintenance on a Saturday night - yes it will affect people who want to go from Manchester to London and back in a single day on a Saturday, and stay out past 8pm, but that's a fairly small number compared to those using the network at other times. I certainly wouldn't want to be doing six hours of travel (even if there are no delays!) in one day if I could avoid it!

Granted once HS2 opens it will be a quicker journey and you'd have more people making the trip, but then again you would be able to leave London later and still make the cut off for going past Stoke!

Depends if / when HS2 gets past Phase 1 including Euston

Once Phase 1 opens, won't the service from Old Oak Common to Manchester be significantly quicker than it is now? I realise that it will travel more slowly from Handsacre to Manchester than currently, but surely going so much quicker over the first 2/3 of the route will outweigh that?

 

[Class 170101]

Once Phase 1 opens, won't the service from Old Oak Common to Manchester be significantly quicker than it is now? I realise that it will travel more slowly from Handsacre to Manchester than currently, but surely going so much quicker over the first 2/3 of the route will outweigh that?

Should be but whether it results in later services from London or just an earlier last arrival into Manchester who knows. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Fincra5]

Seems odd to use 222s on a route that is completely under the wires, is it not. Whilst Rail are speculating, it actually makes more sense, environmentally, for a refitted 350/2 (if they can be rated to 110)

 

[Clarence Yard]

The 350/2 units are not the kind of train that Lumo wants. They need end door stock for their business model and preferably something that could operate away from the wires.

 

[Bill57p9]

The 350/2 units are not the kind of train that Lumo wants. They need end door stock for their business model and preferably something that could operate away from the wires.

TPE ran their InterCity service between Manchester and Edinburgh/Glasgow with 350/4s quite happily for many years, though I do agree that end door stock is more appropriate for such routes (and Lumo have longer gaps between stops).

 

[Fincra5]

The 350/2 units are not the kind of train that Lumo wants. They need end door stock for their business model and preferably something that could operate away from the wires.

I get the "Long-Distance" style of train.... but LUMO currently only operate pure EMUs.

 

[Class 170101]

for a refitted 350/2 (if they can be rated to 110)

I thought they were rated for 110mph operation already?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

for a refitted 350/2 (if they can be rated to 110)

I thought they were rated for 110mph operation already?

Yes they are, all 350s are (as the /2s already had the upgrades years ago)

 

[Fincra5]

Yes they are, all 350s are (as the /2s already had the upgrades years ago)

Ah, my bad, didn't realise the /2s also got done.

 

[YorkRailFan]

but LUMO currently only operate pure EMUs.

That will go out the window if their Paignton service is approved anyway.

 

[Blackpool boy]

I certainly wouldn't want to be doing six hours of travel (even if there are no delays!) in one day if I could avoid it!

And yet we dont mind doing that - bit of breakfast and a nap on the train down - few beers and some food and a nap on the train home and if everything runs as it should we are home and in bed by 2330 ish.

Its not too bad a day out all round, apart from having to catch a matinee show

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That will go out the window if their Paignton service is approved anyway.

Most of the public won’t notice though as you may be sure they’d simply order 802s for that, and specify them to be identical to the 803s.