Trail hunting hopefully to be banned

[dcbwhaley]

I don’t like angling, though arguably the fish do not suffer nearly as much as a fox would when they are brutally ripped apart.

Is there good scientific evidence for that?
And would you say that drowning a fox was less cruel than hunting it to death?

 

[Egg Centric]

I don't have a problem with trail hunting, as it is described on paper. Laying down a scent for the dogs to follow seems reasonable to me, they're not actually killing anything, just following a scent. There are people (such as the OP) saying things like "clearly been used as a loophole for people to torture foxes to death" but I haven't actually seen any evidence anywhere that backs up those claims.

There are some things that you don't really need evidence for as they're so obvious. Even someone like me who knows bugger all about hunting knows damn well from those who do it that the trail hunting is a paper thin ruse.

For example - trail hunting is laying down a fox scent. There is something very similar called drag hunting where a non fox scent is laid down. Why would you specifically be laying down a fox scent (if you actually are laying anything down) one wonders...

 

[bleeder4]

There are some things that you don't really need evidence for as they're so obvious. Even someone like me who knows bugger all about hunting knows damn well from those who do it that the trail hunting is a paper thin ruse.

For example - trail hunting is laying down a fox scent. There is something very similar called drag hunting where a non fox scent is laid down. Why would you specifically be laying down a fox scent (if you actually are laying anything down) one wonders...

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. In fact, all you've done is just prove my point that these wild claims are being perpetuated without any actual hard evidence.

 

[Egg Centric]

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. In fact, all you've done is just prove my point that these wild claims are being perpetuated without any actual hard evidence.

A moment's google will demonstrate that a) trail hunting is an invention in response to the hunting ban (as opposed to drag hunting) b) investigations into so-called trail hunting has found that most of the time they're not even bothering to lay the trail in the first place c) the same traditional hunts trying other "cunning" techniques around loopholes in the (hilariously badly drafted) law like bringing a falcon along.

I don't think anyone remotely interested believes that trail hunting is a real thing tbh. But the ban was always more about symbolic class warfare than a genuine concern for animal welfare imo so there was no real pressure to give it teeth.

For a disinterested observer like me it's all comical but if I were either an animal rights activist or a pro-hunting activist I would be extremely angry about the current state of affairs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It would be interesting to know how many of those opining on this thread have ever actually been hunting or seen a hunt in real life so as to inform their rather emotive opposition to the sport.

Been hunting? No. Barbaric activity carried out by barbaric people.

Seen a hunt in real life? Yes. Plenty. I used to live in rural Cumbria.

More generally, death is pretty much instantaneous because of how the hounds are trained.

Being ripped to shreds by a pack of hounds is generally pretty quick.

I note you don't use the word humane.

But the ban was always more about symbolic class warfare than a genuine concern for animal welfare imo so there was no real pressure to give it teeth.

I don't agree about the bit I've bolded at all. If anything I'd argue the opposite: fox hunting lasted as long as it did because it was a toff activity. Dog fighting was banned 200 years ago.

I suppose the issue with this legislation was always the compromise involved. It would be easy to ban trail or drag hunting but then there really would have been complaints about destroying the rural way of life or some such nonsense.

The existing law has teeth but, like with any law, you can have the biggest teeth in the world but it counts for nothing if you don't use them. And it's fair to say that rural constabularies, by and large, don't give a stuff about enforcing the existing law when it comes to fox hunting.

I used to live next to a farmer who had banned the local hunt from his land because he was sick of them scaring his sheep and flattening his fences; the police couldn't care less when the hunt simply ignored him. As a random aside, that also proves that that particular hunt clearly weren't following a trail, as they wouldn't have deliberately laid a trail on land they were told not to enter.

Rural constabularies seem far more keen to enforce the law on hare coursing. I wonder why that might be...

 

[Egg Centric]

The existing law has teeth but, like with any law, you can have the biggest teeth in the world but it counts for nothing if you don't use them. And it's fair to say that rural constabularies, by and large, don't give a stuff about enforcing the existing law when it comes to fox hunting.

I used to live next to a farmer who had banned the local hunt from his land because he was sick of them scaring his sheep and flattening his fences; the police couldn't care less when the hunt simply ignored him. As a random aside, that also proves that that particular hunt clearly weren't following a trail, as they wouldn't have deliberately laid a trail on land they were told not to enter.

Rural constabularies seem far more keen to enforce the law on hare coursing. I wonder why that might be...

The RSPCA makes TOC prosecution departments look reasonable; if this law were easy to prosecute under then there would be many more prosecutions, even if not coming from the rural forces who I agree generally don't have the resources or inclination to do anything. The loopholes in it are just silly and silly enough I find it impossible to believe that they were just incompetent drafting (even compared to other New Labour legislative triumphs). Indeed we may well see the biggest one finally be closed if trail hunting is banned as with the subject of this thread. But of course "they" will just move to the flushing out for guns exemption.

A government that actually saw this as a priority could sort it once and for all. It's very hard to see why it should be a priority though - there's so much to fix, a few foxes here and there really shouldn't be taking up legislative time when we have hundreds of thousands of children in poverty, crazy marginal tax rates at both the high and low end, a health and care system in crisis, screwed up defence, etc etc. And I think the answer to that is no one likes toffs.

 

[Ediswan]

The RSPCA makes TOC prosecution departments look reasonable;

I believe the RSPCA stopped bringing private prosecutions a few years ago.

 

[Egg Centric]

I believe the RSPCA stopped bringing private prosecutions a few years ago.

Wasn't aware of that, but good

Still point stands - a proper animal welfare charity could easily do the prosecution if the law were drafted more sensibly. The obvious thing to do to my mind is introduce either some kind of recklessness rule or even maybe strict liability if your hounds gruesomely torture for hours / painlessly euthanaise in one bite (pick ridiculous position of each side per preference) a fox. That gets rid of preposterously claiming it's all accidental.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The RSPCA makes TOC prosecution departments look reasonable; if this law were easy to prosecute under then there would be many more prosecutions, even if not coming from the rural forces who I agree generally don't have the resources or inclination to do anything. The loopholes in it are just silly and silly enough I find it impossible to believe that they were just incompetent drafting (even compared to other New Labour legislative triumphs).

I completely agree about the RSPCA and it stopped doing private prosecutions about three years ago after it was pretty robustly criticised by the courts in one or two of those prosecutions.

It's not resources with the police, it is inclination. Rural constabularies are forever announcing "crackdowns" on hare coursing. Hare coursing was made illegal in the same act that banned fox hunting yet the police don't seem to have any issues enforcing that law. I can't help but wonder why the working class hunting gets a crackdown and the toff hunting gets a free pass.

The "loopholes" in the legislation, as you put it, were deliberate. There was a lot of compromise involved in the act. The easiest thing would definitely have been to ban the lot however you had an influential hunting lobby demanding to be allowed to keep their pomp and ceremony. The same "dog loving" lobby were also saying they'd shoot all their hunting dogs if hunting was banned entirely.

I'd have called the hunting lobby's bluff, banned all of it, and dared them to shoot their hunting dogs, but I can see why the Blair government took the compromise they did.

 

[Egg Centric]

I completely agree about the RSPCA and it stopped doing private prosecutions about three years ago after it was pretty robustly criticised by the courts in one or two of those prosecutions.

It's not resources with the police, it is inclination. Rural constabularies are forever announcing "crackdowns" on hare coursing. Hare coursing was made illegal in the same act that banned fox hunting yet the police don't seem to have any issues enforcing that law. I can't help but wonder why the working class hunting gets a crackdown and the toff hunting gets a free pass.

The "loopholes" in the legislation, as you put it, were deliberate. There was a lot of compromise involved in the act. The easiest thing would definitely have been to ban the lot however you had an influential hunting lobby demanding to be allowed to keep their pomp and ceremony. The same "dog loving" lobby were also saying they'd shoot all their hunting dogs if hunting was banned entirely.

I'd have called the hunting lobby's bluff, banned all of it, and dared them to shoot their hunting dogs, but I can see why the Blair government took the compromise they did.

Given they shoot them all anyway when they're no longer useful (an angle I still don't understand why the animal rights groups don't take - Brits aren't generally too keen on wildlife but they love dogs) I don't think there's anything to disagree with there!

 

[jon0844]

Will new laws do anything for the police forces that were actively telling people how to get around the law and basically saying (on camera it seems) they'd turn a blind eye?

 

[75A]

I was at the East Down Hunt at Annahilt on New Years day, there were 16 riders (including our neighbours) and around 20 Hounds (never ever called dogs) they rode for 4 hours and didn't ever see let alone catch anything, everyone went home happy.