Trail hunting hopefully to be banned

[Egg Centric]

No need to kill it at all, that's the point. A mouse is not going to harm you.

Have you ever lived anywhere with a proper rodent infestation? I have on my first "proper" job after uni where as with most people in that position naturally I was living in a bit of squalor . Been waken up by mice on my bed more than once. It's true that they didn't hurt me but it was not a pleasant experience as a grown man. I'm not subjecting a one year old with no understanding of what's going on to that, no way. I'll torture 1000 mice* before having that happen to my daughter and I expect most parents to feel similarly. And they absolutely can bite and spread disease fwiw.

That said I am relieved standard traps worked. Even ignoring the legal issues, no one sane would want to use a glue trap if they could avoid it.


*To an extent a choice I already made a long time ago in not avoiding medicine developed with vivisection, that is to say all of it

 

[Gostav]

Sure the mouse is not going to directly harm you, but it could create hygiene problems, though much less so than a rat would.

Rats can spread diseases, for example orthohantavirus. Rats also chew on plastic pipes and electrical wires, posing serious safety hazards, even biting human especially children.

Rat chews ear of sleeping 9-year-old - NZ Herald

Rats are running amok in Glen Innes, chewing through linen, using drainpipes as links between houses and even biting one child on his ear.

www.nzherald.co.nz

In addition, those most troubled by rat infestations are often those at the bottom of society who cannot afford to pay for professionals and often live in old-style apartments and townhouses that are most susceptible to pests.

I think sticky mouse traps are inhumane but I won't blame people in such poor environment, even if they break the law.

 

[Yew]

Good. I’m usually against bans but the animal welfare concerns here are overriding. If foxes need killing why not just shoot them rather than have a bunch of hooray Henries chase them and rip them asunder with baying hounds?

There is already a ban on foxhunting with dogs and horses.

 

[12LDA28C]

Have you ever lived anywhere with a proper rodent infestation? I have on my first "proper" job after uni where as with most people in that position naturally I was living in a bit of squalor . Been waken up by mice on my bed more than once. It's true that they didn't hurt me but it was not a pleasant experience as a grown man. I'm not subjecting a one year old with no understanding of what's going on to that, no way. I'll torture 1000 mice* before having that happen to my daughter and I expect most parents to feel similarly. And they absolutely can bite and spread disease fwiw.

That said I am relieved standard traps worked. Even ignoring the legal issues, no one sane would want to use a glue trap if they could avoid it.


*To an extent a choice I already made a long time ago in not avoiding medicine developed with vivisection, that is to say all of it

I've lost count of the number of mice I've caught in the house with my own bare hands and released them back outside. Never been bitten once. I'm not gonna purposely kill any wild animal that enters my house, but that's just me.

 

[mikeg]

There is already a ban on foxhunting with dogs and horses.

Indeed there is, but is there on this often-used-as-a-loophole activity?

 

[Falcon1200]

Indeed there is, but is there on this often-used-as-a-loophole activity?

That is the question already asked! ie How many supposedly non-animal harming trail hunts actually end up with a ripped-apart fox? Rather than banning the 'sport' outright perhaps a scientific study should be done, with independent monitoring of each hunt.

 

[Cloud Strife]

with independent monitoring of each hunt.

The problem is that both sides in the debate are very much against independent monitoring. I've got friends who are involved with this as a 'sport', but also those who are sabotaging the hunts. The hunters don't want to have independent monitoring because they're afraid of getting dragged over the coals for something like a fox being killed by mistake as well as the more obvious point that they aren't actually laying trials, but also the saboteurs don't want it because some of their activities are rather beyond the pale. The saboteur friends routinely set up traps designed to maim horse and rider, or they will deliberately lead dogs into traps using a range of scents.

 

[baz962]

The problem is that both sides in the debate are very much against independent monitoring. I've got friends who are involved with this as a 'sport', but also those who are sabotaging the hunts. The hunters don't want to have independent monitoring because they're afraid of getting dragged over the coals for something like a fox being killed by mistake as well as the more obvious point that they aren't actually laying trials, but also the saboteurs don't want it because some of their activities are rather beyond the pale. The saboteur friends routinely set up traps designed to maim horse and rider, or they will deliberately lead dogs into traps using a range of scents.

I had been thinking about posting here but didn't as my friend is a saboteur , but he and his partner are real animal lovers and I can't imagine they would lay traps. So people that don't want foxes hurt , would hurt horses and hounds, hypocrites. Absolute hypocrites.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So people that don't want foxes hurt , would hurt horses and hounds, hypocrites. Absolute hypocrites.

Sabs don't generally set traps which are intended to seriously injure the hounds or the horses but they will set traps which are intended to unseat the rider. It's certainly an ethical grey area, even if it isn't their intention to hurt the horse it is often the outcome that unseating the rider injures the horse in the process.

I don't agree that they don't need killing and them being a native species doesn't really have much to do with it - not because I know much about it (I'm not a farmer) but it seems to be a pretty widely held view and I assume they're not wanting them killed out of bloodlust.

I wouldn't trust the hunting sorts to be honest in this conversation. They like hunting foxes so they argue that it is responsible land management to hunt foxes.

We see similar arguments about badgers, most cattle catch TB from other cattle because farmers won't vaccinate them against it- that costs money. But the farmers instead want to be able to go on a rampage and kill tens of thousands of badgers. The hunting sorts would hunt them with dogs if they could.

I actually do think there's a significant amount of bloodlust in what the hunting sorts say.

 

[Tetragon213]

I've never had an issue with hunting or culling if scientifically supported; however, it is my personal opinion that (as human beings) we have an obligation to limit the suffering of the quarry as much as feasibly possible.

Chasing the poor fox to exhaustion, and then having some hounds rip it apart is about as far removed from this as I can imagine.

 

[Egg Centric]

Sabs don't generally set traps which are intended to seriously injure the hounds or the horses but they will set traps which are intended to unseat the rider. It's certainly an ethical grey area, even if it isn't their intention to hurt the horse it is often the outcome that unseating the rider injures the horse in the process.


I wouldn't trust the hunting sorts to be honest in this conversation. They like hunting foxes so they argue that it is responsible land management to hunt foxes.

We see similar arguments about badgers, most cattle catch TB from other cattle because farmers won't vaccinate them against it- that costs money. But the farmers instead want to be able to go on a rampage and kill tens of thousands of badgers. The hunting sorts would hunt them with dogs if they could.

I actually do think there's a significant amount of bloodlust in what the hunting sorts say.

How effective is a vaccine against TB in cattle? The human one is relatively poor (eg my wife had BCG as a child but still caught it)

It's probably right to be suspicious of hunting lobby but farmers less...

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Edit: Just did a bit of research into TB in cattle and looks like government's "fault" rather than farmers. BcG like humans isn't particularly effective but in any case outside of a trial farmers cannot use it as it interferes with the main TB testing regime. So while the government persists with this policy culls sound inevitable...

 

[dcbwhaley]

I wouldn't trust the hunting sorts to be honest in this conversation. They like hunting foxes so they argue that it is responsible land management to hunt foxes.

I actually do think there's a significant amount of bloodlust in what the hunting sorts say.

Most people out on a hunt are there to enjoy a fast, exhilarating horse ride and to practice/demonstrate there skill at jumping fences. Most of them never actually see a fox let alone a kill.

And when it comes to hypocrisy what about angling. Dragging a living creature from its natural environment by a barbed hook through its lip and letting it slowly choke is far more cruel than chasing a fox to its death. Yet angling is not merely tolerated by celebrated by popular TV programmes such as "Mortimer and Whitehouse gone fishing".

 

[Tetchytyke]

Most people out on a hunt are there to enjoy a fast, exhilarating horse ride and to practice/demonstrate there skill at jumping fences. Most of them never actually see a fox let alone a kill.

To an extent, yes. We have trail hunts on the Isle of Man even though we don’t have any foxes.

But I do think a lot of the people involved are out to kill animals. They can do all of that in a dressage ring.

 

[Cantab26]

A poll of people unconnected to farming is valueless unless it comes with associated education. Another example of this would be badger culling. I again know very little about this but the farmers really do seem to want the badgers dead whereas the anti-cullers seem to be e.g. Brian May (an excellent chap but with no expertise in this area) so I'm instinctively on the side of the farmers.

It would be interesting to know how many of those opining on this thread have ever actually been hunting or seen a hunt in real life so as to inform their rather emotive opposition to the sport.

 

[alex397]

And when it comes to hypocrisy what about angling. Dragging a living creature from its natural environment by a barbed hook through its lip and letting it slowly choke is far more cruel than chasing a fox to its death. Yet angling is not merely tolerated by celebrated by popular TV programmes such as "Mortimer and Whitehouse gone fishing".

I don’t like angling, though arguably the fish do not suffer nearly as much as a fox would when they are brutally ripped apart.

It would be interesting to know how many of those opining on this thread have ever actually been hunting or seen a hunt in real life so as to inform their rather emotive opposition to the sport.

I’ve seen two hunts. One in Kent and another in the Cotswolds. I started off as just wanting to see one out of interest and couldn’t understand the anger on both sides. Now I am fully against this “sport”.
I haven’t seen bull fights or a bull run though. Am I allowed an opinion on those if I haven’t seen it?

 

[Cantab26]

I haven’t seen bull fights or a bull run though. Am I allowed an opinion on those if I haven’t seen it?

You are of course allowed an opinion, even if it might not be worth much.

Take this little nugget of misinformation for example:

do not suffer nearly as much as a fox would when they are brutally ripped apart

I’ve seen two hunts. One in Kent and another in the Cotswolds. I started off as just wanting to see one out of interest and couldn’t understand the anger on both sides. Now I am fully against this “sport”.

How closely did you follow? Were you part of the field?

 

[alex397]

You are of course allowed an opinion, even if it might not be worth much.

Thank you so much.

Take this little nugget of misinformation for example:

How is it misinformation? Please elaborate.

How closely did you follow? Were you part of the field?

I would only be able to be ‘part of the field’ if I was a hunter or a sab, so no.

 

[Cantab26]

I would only be able to be ‘part of the field’ if I was a hunter or a sab, so no.

To clarify then: have you ever seen a fox being killed by a hunt?

If not, on what basis do you assert that foxes are “brutally ripped apart” (when alive, that is)?

 

[alex397]

To clarify then: have you ever seen a fox being killed by a hunt?

If not, on what basis do you assert that foxes are “brutally ripped apart” (when alive, that is)?

I’ve seen plenty of video evidence.

What do you think happens when the dogs come across a fox? Do they suddenly catch it by surprise and kill it instantly, so the fox doesn’t suffer? It would be interesting to know if that’s the case.

 

[Cantab26]

I’ve seen plenty of video evidence.

Of what, from whom and where?

What do you think happens when the dogs come across a fox? Do they suddenly catch it by surprise and kill it instantly, so the fox doesn’t suffer? It would be interesting to know if that’s the case.

Sometimes, yes, that’s exactly what happens.

More generally, death is pretty much instantaneous because of how the hounds are trained.

 

[alex397]

Of what, from whom and where?

Strangely enough I haven’t kept a list of all the videos I’ve seen of barbaric practices. However, this news report containing a video is a good example. It is from ITV News and shows fox hunters digging out a set and then throwing a live fox to the hounds. It also has a quote from a police officer who says illegal fox hunting with hounds is ‘prolific’ in the UK. This is from 2023.

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-02-09...ickening-fox-hunt-footage-exposed-by-itv-news

Hunt expelled as police probe 'sickening' fox hunt footage exposed by ITV News​

Rupert Evelyn
ITV News Correspondent
Thursday 9 February 2023 at 10:35pm

The video, obtained by ITV News, has been widely condemned, as Rupert Evelyn reports

---

Illegal hunting of foxes with a pack of hounds is “prolific” in this country, says the police officer who leads on hunting-related crime.

Reacting to the ITV News story of the Avon Vale Hunt releasing foxes to a pack of waiting hounds, Chief Superintendent Matt Longman tweeted: “Many requests to comment on hunting today. Deliberately killing a fox with a pack of hounds is illegal, it’s wrong and it’s prolific in the UK.

"National experts will offer support to investigating Forces to raise the game of UK policing. Much more to do."

His intervention comes on the day the Avon Vale Hunt was effectively expelled from the sport of hunting.

After ITV News revealed “sickening” footage of foxes being dug out of the ground and “thrown” to the hounds the organisation that runs the rural pursuit, the British Hounds Sports Association (BHSA) has decided “the evidence revealed serious breaches of the Core Principles and Rules of the BHSA.

On reaching their conclusions, the Panel were minded permanently to expel the Hunt and its Masters, Huntsman and Kennel Huntsman from membership of the BHSA. This would mean that in all probability the Hunt would no longer be able to function.

The footage has caused outrage. Chief Executive of the Countryside Alliance, Tim Bonner, said: “The video of the Avon Vale hunt is disgraceful and wholly unacceptable. Those involved must be investigated and prosecuted, but this incident also highlights the importance of proper standards and effective regulation of hunting.”

---

Emma Smith, director of operations at the League Against Cruel Sports, said: “This sickening footage shows that hunts are still targeting foxes and that ‘trail’ hunting is a sham and a smokescreen being used to deceive the public, police and courts."

Danny Kruger, the MP for Devizes in Wiltshire, said: "The video obtained by ITV News appears to show a flagrant breach of the Hunting Act.

"I am pleased that the police are treating this case with the seriousness it deserves, arresting the three individuals involved, and that the British Hound Sports Association have suspended the Avon Vale Hunt itself.

"Anyone responsible for deliberately hunting foxes with hounds should be prosecuted."

With many calling for a tightening of laws around hunting to prevent loopholes being exploited, Labour’s Shadow Environment Secretary Jim McMahon said: "What we're seeing is a very clear demonstration of people who were flouting the rules.

'Terrierman' found guilty after sending dog into badger den to flush out fox
Six men arrested and 22 dogs seized in 'largest ever' fox hunting-related raid
"If we have legislation that has a loophole in it, that goes completely against the will of Parliament, then Labour will be the party that maintains high animal welfare standards. And we will make sure that that loophole is closed."

The government said: “The Hunting Act 2004 makes it an offence to hunt a wild mammal with dogs and anyone who believes that an offence has taken place should report the matter to the police. Those found guilty under the Act are subject to the full force of the law."

Wiltshire Police today called on the public to help them identify those in the video. Which they said appeared to show offences taking place.

As for the Avon Vale Hunt. Well, more than a century of hunting, most of it spent legally killing animals, it’s now facing its own demise for, of all things, hunting foxes.

There are plenty of other examples to be found online.

Sometimes, yes, that’s exactly what happens.

More generally, death is pretty much instantaneous because of how the hounds are trained.

Sometimes isn’t good enough. Even if that is what happens, it is illegal and hopefully reported to the authorities.

 

[Egg Centric]

Of what, from whom and where?

Sometimes, yes, that’s exactly what happens.

More generally, death is pretty much instantaneous because of how the hounds are trained.

Why would the hounds be trained to kill humanely if they are there to follow a scent? You're saying the quiet bit out loud

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I haven’t seen bull fights or a bull run though. Am I allowed an opinion on those if I haven’t seen it

I have seen a few bull fight out of curiosity on a trip to Bilbao and anyone claiming that that is humane is full of crap tbh. It was admittedly extremely impressive (especially the type where they do it from a horse) but also undoubtedly inhumane (and rightly destined for history's scrapheap) and you really don't need to be an expert to see that

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A suggestion just occurred to me - if hunting isn't about chasing foxes, how about robot hounds that just go some random route? I suspect we are close to having the technology to do that.

 

[Cantab26]

Strangely enough I haven’t kept a list of all the videos I’ve seen of barbaric practices. However, this news report containing a video is a good example. It is from ITV News and shows fox hunters digging out a set and then throwing a live fox to the hounds.

Of what you allege is a barbaric practice.

As to the report you reference, this clearly has nothing to do with trail hunting (or traditional hunting for that matter).

Nor does the video show a fox being thrown to hounds.

It also has a quote from a police officer who says illegal fox hunting with hounds is ‘prolific’ in the UK. This is from 2023.

A police officer who also in the same post misstates the law.

Sometimes isn’t good enough. Even if that is what happens, it is illegal and hopefully reported to the authorities.

Illegal, you say? What is your legal basis for such a claim?

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A suggestion just occurred to me - if hunting isn't about chasing foxes, how about robot hounds that just go some random route? I suspect we are close to having the technology to do that.

Your comment put me in mind of robot camel jockeys!

As to whether technology is actually there at the moment I would have my doubts - we’ll probably all be killed by our machine overlords by then anyway!

 

[Acey]

To clarify then: have you ever seen a fox being killed by a hunt?

If not, on what basis do you assert that foxes are “brutally ripped apart” (

To clarify then: have you ever seen a fox being killed by a hunt?

If not, on what basis do you assert that foxes are “brutally ripped apart” (when alive, that is)?

Of course the're not ripped apart,they shake paws and all go down the local Indian for a curry ! stick to Disney !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2025 ==

Of what, from whom and where?

Sometimes, yes, that’s exactly what happens.

More generally, death is pretty much instantaneous because of how the hounds are trained.

How exactly are they trained to kill instantly? stun gun ?

 

[dgl]

When my late Grandad was a farmer in the 50's he did have the odd problem with foxes and chickens, but in terms of monetary damage it was the hunt that caused more issues than the foxes. Damaging farm property like fences when they went out for a hunt.
I wonder what a proper farmer thinks of hunting as opposed to a land owner from a wealthy background? My Grandad was certainly a proper farmer, growing up on the family farm and then having one of his own (although worsening health issues and no money to pay for help for the time he would be out of action meant that he got out of farming in the late 50's, something he never really got over).

 

[alex397]

As to the report you reference, this clearly has nothing to do with trail hunting (or traditional hunting for that matter).

No, but it is evidence of the illegal practices which keep occurring from these absolute hunts. You asked me for evidence of foxes being killed in hunts, and there was some evidence from a very reputable source.

Nor does the video show a fox being thrown to hounds.

That’s because it’s been cut out as presumably too graphic. Unless you think ITV News like to bend the truth or lie?

Illegal, you say? What is your legal basis for such a claim?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2025 ==

Fox hunting is illegal. I hope you were aware of that.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

l am more concerned about our population of hares being wiped out.

 

[Yew]

l am more concerned about our population of hares being wiped out.

An interesting topic, but perhaps for another thread?

 

[bleeder4]

I don't have a problem with trail hunting, as it is described on paper. Laying down a scent for the dogs to follow seems reasonable to me, they're not actually killing anything, just following a scent. There are people (such as the OP) saying things like "clearly been used as a loophole for people to torture foxes to death" but I haven't actually seen any evidence anywhere that backs up those claims.

 

[ChrisC]

l am more concerned about our population of hares being wiped out.

Certainly in parts of Lincolnshire hare coursing has been far more a concern than trail hunting. It’s been really bad these last few months. The police are doing their best to track down these gangs but it’s very difficult in such a large sparsely populated area.