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No Trains on Boxing Day

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Turtle

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Who's having two weeks off?
Well, it can feel like nearly two weeks if you're off from Christmas Eve to New Year's Day inclusive. The "Long" Xmas break in England originated when England got New Year's Day as a Public Holiday. Prior to that the Xmas break fizzled out after Boxing Day. Many of us were quite annoyed at having to compulsorily use up 3 days annual leave at Christmas while work piled up with consequent additional pressure in the New Year.
 
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Krokodil

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Many of us were quite annoyed at having to compulsorily use up 3 days annual leave at Christmas
If I'm not on rest days, Christmas Day and Boxing Day are taken out of my annual leave entitlement. So if someone offered me a wedge to come into work instead, I'd be happy to do so, saving the annual leave days for lengthening my holidays. As it's impossible to get all branches of the family in one place at Christmas, we hold a big get-together in January instead (on a weekend which I wouldn't have been working anyway).

But there's no chance of that happening because no one is going to be funding all the extra staff (at an enhanced rate) to run a service over Christmas. Even a skeleton service has high costs, given fixed costs such as signallers etc.
 

winks

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Why do the railway take Christmas Day and Boxing Day out of your entitlement if it’s classed as a non working day. Annual leave on the railway is already considered incredibly poor compared to most other sectors and to ask staff to deduct 2 days annual leave from an already low allowance is pretty lowsy in my opinion.
 

Krokodil

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Why do the railway take Christmas Day and Boxing Day out of your entitlement if it’s classed as a non working day. Annual leave on the railway is already considered incredibly poor compared to most other sectors and to ask staff to deduct 2 days annual leave from an already low allowance is pretty lowsy in my opinion.
Was negotiated away many years ago. I suppose that it makes things fairer - those whose rest days would have fallen on those days end up with the same number of working days as those whose didn’t.

I'm quite happy with the amount of time I've got off - works out as 6.5 weeks, comfortably above the 5.6 week legal minimum. Obviously I'd not say no to more...
 

12LDA28C

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Why do the railway take Christmas Day and Boxing Day out of your entitlement if it’s classed as a non working day. Annual leave on the railway is already considered incredibly poor compared to most other sectors and to ask staff to deduct 2 days annual leave from an already low allowance is pretty lowsy in my opinion.

Is it? How much annual leave do workers in other sectors enjoy?
 

LCC106

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32 days based on a 4 day week is 8 weeks annual leave. I get that it’s not that simple if you work 6 days one week, 3 another etc.

Back to this no trains on Boxing Day point, some of us enjoy spending time with family or being able to have a couple of drinks with Christmas Dinner.
 

pitdiver

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This thread has obviously been about no trains over the Christmas period and subsequent issues for staff having to work on Boxing day.
For a number of years I worked for National Express coaches. The passengers over the Christmas period were a different breed.
On one Boxing day a male approached me and asked me to look after his parents and to make sure they got their coach at 1845. This was because he was giving to a party. I politely said sorry no I am going home at 1800. He got quite abusive even whe I explained to him I'd been at the old Coachway in Milton Keynes since 0800.
For those that knew what the old Coachway was like will understand my desire to go home.
 

baz962

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Why do the railway take Christmas Day and Boxing Day out of your entitlement if it’s classed as a non working day. Annual leave on the railway is already considered incredibly poor compared to most other sectors and to ask staff to deduct 2 days annual leave from an already low allowance is pretty lowsy in my opinion.
Not sure for all traincrew , but it's pretty good for the driving grade.
 

dangie

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Who's having two weeks off?
I totally appreciate the amount of time off depends on the job you are in. I’m a pensioner so I don’t get any time off :D

Joking aside, there are I’m sure many places of work who do have at least two weeks off over Christmas & New Year. My son-in-law works in the building trade. His last day of work was Friday 20th December and he starts back on Monday 6th January. The building site he’s on shuts down. Many of the suppliers shut down as well. This is sixteen days off work. It does include three weekends of which he wouldn’t be working anyway, but still leaves ten working days.

With Christmas Day & New Year’s Day falling midweek on a Wednesday, many businesses have decided to break up the Friday before Christmas and resume the Monday after New Year. I personally would have hated having to use part of my holiday entitlement on dull cold winter days, when I could use them on hot sunny summer days (one can dream :)).
 

Starmill

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I totally appreciate the amount of time off depends on the job you are in. I’m a pensioner so I don’t get any time off :D

Joking aside, there are I’m sure many places of work who do have at least two weeks off over Christmas & New Year. My son-in-law works in the building trade. His last day of work was Friday 20th December and he starts back on Monday 6th January. The building site he’s on shuts down. Many of the suppliers shut down as well. This is sixteen days off work. It does include three weekends of which he wouldn’t be working anyway, but still leaves ten working days.

With Christmas Day & New Year’s Day falling midweek on a Wednesday, many businesses have decided to break up the Friday before Christmas and resume the Monday after New Year. I personally would have hated having to use part of my holiday entitlement on dull cold winter days, when I could use them on hot sunny summer days (one can dream :)).
The construction industry usually works to a full two week long shut down, similar to the schools. Most others it's either some hybrid or an individual gets some discretion.

As it happens, a lot of office workers also find that it's the only available two weeks of the year where they can disconnect from their work emails without it being a frenzy of built up activities when they return, as colleagues, superiors and customers are also likely to be taking a lot of the time off, or to hold off sending things out, knowing that it can wait. In August this happens a little bit, some find, but at Christmas it's more pronounced and compressed into two weeks rather than 4-6. That can also be a reason why some want it off.
 

Lewisham2221

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I don’t really know which thread to put this on, but something I don’t understand is why employers/employees want two weeks holiday in the middle of winter?

Yes, have Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year’s Day, but work the rest and have days off in the summer (or whenever else).
I suppose it matches up with the school holidays for those who have kids
 

camflyer

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Some industries don't pay any extra
A relative works for a freight processor at Heathrow
Their shifts are 2 days 2 nights and 4 days off
This applies year round and if you happen to be rostered on Christmas Day you work it with as you would any other day
No overtime or day off in lieu

Yet Heathrow and other airports were operating normally on Boxing Day and over the holiday period. You could fly to/from them but couldn't use the train. Forcing more people to drive at this time of year isn't the best situation.

However, I appreciate the holiday periods are also a major period of maintenance and infrastructure work for the railways so those people are working and some route closures are needed. The works around Cambridge have been long advertised so I was always going to be driving to Gatwick at the weekend.
 

renegademaster

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For "social benefit" I think the compromise would be only running Avanti/LNER/GWR intercity. People returning home from family can put up with cabs home for the home leg. I was at King's Cross on the 27th waiting for someone and it seemed almost every train was very packed coming into London, while the Southern that got me up to London was empty.
 

Starmill

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Yet Heathrow and other airports were operating normally on Boxing Day and over the holiday period. You could fly to/from them but couldn't use the train. Forcing more people to drive at this time of year isn't the best situation.

However, I appreciate the holiday periods are also a major period of maintenance and infrastructure work for the railways so those people are working and some route closures are needed. The works around Cambridge have been long advertised so I was always going to be driving to Gatwick at the weekend.
At least London Buses and London Underground run a comprehensive service every 26 December. Some minor airports have nothing in the way of public transport at all, or almost nothing.

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be a basic service still. Ideally all routes across England should have a Sunday service or better.
 

Fokx

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Why do the railway take Christmas Day and Boxing Day out of your entitlement if it’s classed as a non working day.
They don’t at all TOC’s, it all depends on what terms and conditions have been sold by the various privatised operators.

Mine pay both days as paid leave, and I will receive time plus 200%, with no impact on leave allowance.
 

Surreytraveller

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Why do the railway take Christmas Day and Boxing Day out of your entitlement if it’s classed as a non working day. Annual leave on the railway is already considered incredibly poor compared to most other sectors and to ask staff to deduct 2 days annual leave from an already low allowance is pretty lowsy in my opinion.
It comes out of everyone's entitlement, regardless of what job you do.
Most jobs will be 24 days annual leave + 8 days bank holidays, or 32 days annual leave. It's the same difference.
Its just it's hard for non-shift workers to get their heads around sometimes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Was negotiated away many years ago. I suppose that it makes things fairer - those whose rest days would have fallen on those days end up with the same number of working days as those whose didn’t.

I'm quite happy with the amount of time I've got off - works out as 6.5 weeks, comfortably above the 5.6 week legal minimum. Obviously I'd not say no to more...
If a rest day falls on a Bank Holiday, you still have the same number of working days. You'll either gain a lieu day, or keep an annual leave day, depending upon your T&Cs
 
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dk1

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If a rest day falls on a Bank Holiday, you still have the same number of working days. You'll either gain a lieu day, or keep an annual leave day, depending upon your T&Cs

Yes that was me last year. My FDs fell on the 25th & 26th December so ended up with an extra two lieu days this year.
 

BazingaTribe

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It comes out of everyone's entitlement, regardless of what job you do.
Most jobs will be 24 days annual leave + 8 days bank holidays, or 32 days annual leave. It's the same difference.
Its just it's hard for non-shift workers to get their heads around sometimes

Yup. I get no choice as to when to take my bank holidays! I have the luxury of saving three days' holiday between Christmas and New Year to have them elsewhen, but the NHS doesn't sleep over the holiday season so there needs to be at least a skeleton crew to handle patient care and administrative urgencies (I.e. someone to call in an emergency plumber when an inpatient ward toilet backs up on Christmas Day, and the procurement system needs a PO raised)..

My boss was very keen to point out that pre-planned maintenance has to go ahead and get done to the same standard in December as in any other month. No rest for the wicked. But I still think that in the culture we have full holidays for a reason -- partly to do with cultural attachments (Good Friday is one example of a holiday that has been honoured in England for time immemorial and even in a secular society is taken so much for granted that trying to liquidate it would probably provoke a huge backlash; Cromwell tried to abolish Christmas and just drove it underground) and partly to do with the need for collective as well as individual holidays. (I note my very educationally orientated family have planned something for 3 January, whereby everyone will be there except me. Because I don't work in education, 3 January is not just an ordinary day at the office, but the date of some important meetings that would have fallen over the Christmas period but for there not being a quorum of people around. Annoyingly, the host is also doing something on the Saturday, meaning that we couldn't just shift it a day so I could be there.)

As for the continent, retail in the more traditional parts of town when I lived in Lodz, Poland, small shops shut at lunchtime on Saturday. The main newer shops and shopping centres stayed open, and the only difference for a delicatessen I lived above was that they shut at 10pm on a Sunday rather than 11pm, but there was a fairly robust approach to more traditional hours in certain sectors. On public holidays such as the traditional All Hallows and Constitution Day (which often turned into a week's holiday because 1 May was still observed and thus people tended to shut down even in retail) everything shut, and by that I mean everything. I went to Czechia on those days/weeks since they had different holidays.

As for a two week shutdown, that wouldn't work with our lifestyles. The manufacturing industry could shut down, but providers in the leisure industry would be working full tilt. Unless everyone goes abroad, retail and other services catering to the masses on holiday would still have to work. The long shutdowns on the continent that those people brag about...I wonder how many of those with massive allotments at a particular time are office workers who still depend on service providers, retail etc who presumably can't join them on their extended jollies. Just like mass WFH created a bit of a two-tier system in the workforce, with luxuries given to the better off that the often lower-paid service delivery teams couldn't partake in, I suspect that has had an impact on perceived equalities.

I'm probably arguing at cross purposes here -- on the one hand I'm saying not everyone is shut over holidays and on the other I'm saying that other countries do have their shutdowns -- but generally speaking I like to look at both sides of the issue and achieve a compromise position based on the facts. But it still remains that the English approach isn't completely unusual in Europe to have shutdowns for at least some of the population, and that an American style holiday calendar with nothing necessarily guaranteed off and people allowed to ride the rails at the expense of someone else's Christmas wouldn't necessarily be embraced by an awful lot of people here who don't post on this forum and are therefore underrepresented in this discussion.

It seems alien to Americans on other forums to defend the British custom and practice but you can't escape the almost magnetic pull of specific fixed holidays based on a religious heritage that they don't share. (My controversial opinion is that we should also observe Eid al-Fitr and Diwali, given the significant Hindu and Muslim populations in the workforce, but that was difficult when the local education authority in Waltham Forest in the 1980s tried to achieve it and it comes with all kinds of issues when substitution days are added for holidays that fall at a weekend.)
 

LAX54

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Yet Heathrow and other airports were operating normally on Boxing Day and over the holiday period. You could fly to/from them but couldn't use the train. Forcing more people to drive at this time of year isn't the best situation.

However, I appreciate the holiday periods are also a major period of maintenance and infrastructure work for the railways so those people are working and some route closures are needed. The works around Cambridge have been long advertised so I was always going to be driving to Gatwick at the weekend.
Guess Airlines fly due to the rest of the World, or a lot of it, being back to normal on the 26th, so if the airport is open, you may as well do domestic flights too !
 

ExRes

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Who are all these people that want to travel on Boxing Day, I assume they're all trying to get into work?
 

Turtle

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Who are all these people that want to travel on Boxing Day, I assume they're all trying to get into work?
I worked on Boxing Day. Fortunately I lived on the Brighton line which had a service. As it happened my job pressure was at its highest in the December/January period.
 

AverageJoe

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I worked on Boxing Day. Fortunately I lived on the Brighton line which had a service. As it happened my job pressure was at its highest in the December/January period.
They are the worst type of traveller though. Often groups of drunk grown men looking for opportunities to be a menace, display anti social behaviour, intimidate other travellers and sometimes commit acts of vandalism.

For me that’s more incentive not to want to work on boxing day.

Edit: sorry replied to the wrong person it was meant to be a reply to 1D54
 

Topological

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Who are all these people that want to travel on Boxing Day, I assume they're all trying to get into work?
People who have spent Christmas Day with their family but do not want to have to wait until the 27th to go home.

People whose families span multiple cities and therefore need to be in two locations over the holidays.

People who want to go to Boxing Day sales

The sporting events have been mentioned and notably received the standard stereotyped response. I spent a lot of money on the railways over the years following football and did not once engage in any of the behaviours prescribed to football supporters (being drunk on a train is something many do for many reasons and does not equate to causing problems, more likely it means just falling asleep and ending up at the wrong stop).
 

AverageJoe

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People who have spent Christmas Day with their family but do not want to have to wait until the 27th to go home.

People whose families span multiple cities and therefore need to be in two locations over the holidays.

People who want to go to Boxing Day sales

The sporting events have been mentioned and notably received the standard stereotyped response. I spent a lot of money on the railways over the years following football and did not once engage in any of the behaviours prescribed to football supporters (being drunk on a train is something many do for many reasons and does not equate to causing problems, more likely it means just falling asleep and ending up at the wrong stop).
While you may be one of the well behaved ones, as someone who works on the train I can say I get most if not all of my issues from the large groups of chanting football fans.

What you may not notice from your seat is the amount of passenger alarms being pulled that the driver has to deal with then the groups standing far to close to the platform edge, people urinating and being sick on the train, especially when it’s behind the drivers door and I can smell it, banging on the drivers door, holding doors open, blocking doorways because they are oblivious to others.

So what you may consider a stereotypical response if often a reality to me on busy football days.
 

Topological

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It could be argued that these issues are caused by inadequately specified trains. It is still necessary to stand too close to the platform edge for many services day-in-day-out because the trains that come are too short. The lack of toilets is well documented and could easily be fixed as well. Those are discussions for other threads, my inclusion of that here is simply to say that pinning the outcomes on football fans is missing a bigger picture.

Either way, there are many busy football days per year and services do run. So what about the other reasons for boxing day travel? Does it mean that trains should be cancelled on all weekends (and midweek too) lest there be a football crowd travelling?
 

AverageJoe

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It could be argued that these issues are caused by inadequately specified trains. It is still necessary to stand too close to the platform edge for many services day-in-day-out because the trains that come are too short. The lack of toilets is well documented and could easily be fixed as well. Those are discussions for other threads, my inclusion of that here is simply to say that pinning the outcomes on football fans is missing a bigger picture.

Either way, there are many busy football days per year and services do run. So what about the other reasons for boxing day travel? Does it mean that trains should be cancelled on all weekends (and midweek too) lest there be a football crowd travelling?
Someone said a reason to run services on Boxing Day was for sports.

I gave my reason for not being incentivised to work Boxing Day based on those sporting events.

You referred to it as a stereotypes, I say it’s a fact.

I’m not looking to debate what should and shouldn’t run on other days.

These conversations are going around in circles.
 

The exile

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People who have spent Christmas Day with their family but do not want to have to wait until the 27th to go home.

People whose families span multiple cities and therefore need to be in two locations over the holidays.

People who want to go to Boxing Day sales

The sporting events have been mentioned and notably received the standard stereotyped response. I spent a lot of money on the railways over the years following football and did not once engage in any of the behaviours prescribed to football supporters (being drunk on a train is something many do for many reasons and does not equate to causing problems, more likely it means just falling asleep and ending up at the wrong stop).
Would suggest that the key word in two of these examples (arguably it should be in all 3) is “want” as opposed to “need”.
 

Topological

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Would suggest that the key word in two of these examples (arguably it should be in all 3) is “want” as opposed to “need”.
Do not get into that debate with an economist :E

Suffice to say almost all travel on the railways is want and not need.

I do not need to work in a different place to where I live, but I do and that generates revenue for the railway. Aside from some cases of low paid workers needing to be further from their places of work due to property prices being inflated near those work places rail travel need is very low. I have to single our groups who could not afford an alternative private means of transport, and for whom bicycles would not be a workable option. Even then there are ways to provide alternatives to rail travel such that rail travel is not needed.

Thankfully, we have not gone down the need route and so we have services that provide for wants. People want to travel on Boxing Day for many reasons (which then answers the demand for Boxing Day travel question).
 
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