Court action for fare evasion and abusive language

[danielt1990]

Hello all,

new to the forum after doing a little research online. Hoping the experts on here can kindly offer some guidance as to the likely outcome and fine for an alleged offence claimed by Northern rail.

Earlier this year I boarded a train from Harrogate to Leeds. I attempted to buy a train ticket on Trainline for this specific journey however the app showed the journey as sold out. The ticket machine at the rail station also was out of service. I have a screenshot of the Trainline app and a picture of the machine not working. I therefore bought a ticket for the next journey. I boarded the train, showed the ticket inspector my ticket to which he advised it wasn’t valid. I explained why I had bought a ticket for the train after and asked if I could buy a ticket on board. This request was refused and his to his colleague responded just take his details.

I refused to give my details as I don’t believe I had done anything wrong. (In hindsight I should have).

the 2 train officers, started goading us saying things like you wouldn’t get on a flight with the wrong ticket and enjoy your wait at the next station. My brother told them to **** off and something along the lines of have you not got anything else to ****ing do. At no point did I swear, become aggressive as alleged.

We left the train at the next stop to get on the following train and one I had a valid ticket for.

Upon arrival in Leeds we were greeted by the two train officers and 2 police officers. I gave my details.

I received a letter from Northern Rail, asking for my version of events.

Which I responded with the below.

• I boarded the 13.30 train from Pannal to Leeds on Sunday 2nd June with my brother.
• 15 minutes before boarding the train, I tried to purchase a ticket for this service but was unable to on both the Northern Rail app and The Trainline app. The ticket was “unavailable”.
• I then tried to purchase a ticket at the machine as Pannal station but it said the service was sold out.
• I therefore purchased a ticket for the next train which was the 14.00 service. (Ticket details attached)
• After boarding the train, I presented my ticket to the conductor who scanned it and then said the ticket is not valid.
• I explained that I had been unable to purchase a ticket for the 13.30 service through no fault of my own. At which point the conductor said the reason why I was unable to purchase the 13.30 ticket was because it was sold out from Pannal.
• Only a handful of people boarded the train at Pannal and the train was a third full.
• The conductor explained that because I had purchased an advance single for the next service, the ticket was invalid.
• I reasonably explained to the conductor that I was unable to purchase a ticket for the 13.30 service and was not prepared to wait 30 minutes for the next train. I also stated the fact that the face value of the ticket I presented was the same face value as for the 13.30 service which I was unable to purchase (£4.20).
• I offered several times to pay the difference for an anytime single or buy another ticket completely.
• This was refused and I was asked for my details. No clear reason was given as to why my details were being sought. For this reason I refused to provide them as I didn’t consider this acceptable.
• At this point, the conductor’s colleague approached and was being extremely rude and confrontational. His behaviour was totally unacceptable and he began goading myself and my younger brother who had a valid ticket for the 13.30 service.
• The conductor’s colleague took it upon himself to antagonise myself and my younger brother. He stated “I’m cancelling your ticket” and laughed at us. When I agreed to get off at the next station which was Weeton, the antagonist member of staff said “enjoy Weeton lads”.
• Another passenger observed the situation and remarks by your unprofessional employee and said out loud it was a total disgrace.
• Myself and my brother left the train at Weeton in order to board the 14.00 service. My brother had to purchase another ticket for this service as due to the way he was treated he wasn’t prepared to stay on the train and leave me.
• Upon arrival at Leeds station after boarding the 14.00 service, I was confronted by the two train conductors on the 13.30 service along with two police officers.
• After hearing both my and your employees version of events, the police officers were extremely sympathetic.
• After 10 minutes or so of conversation, the police officers suggested I provide your employees with my details otherwise they may have to take police action.
• I therefore provided my details.

I’ve used the train service and Northern Rail most of my life and I have never been subjected to such unjust and punitive treatment.


Zero discretion was shown by your members of staff and frankly myself and my brother felt bullied and treated like criminals which is totally unacceptable.

I appreciate that I did not have an anytime single ticket. I offered to buy one on the train but was met with callous indifference.


To be clear, the advance single ticket I bought for the 14.00 service was £4.20. This is the same face value as the 13.30 service which I was unable to purchase and made every attempt to purchase. Therefore, there has been no financial loss to Northern Rail. I have clearly demonstrated all the required efforts to buy a ticket, I am not a criminal nor was I trying to evade paying the required fare.



I have made a complaint through your complaints team on Monday 3rd June 2024 about the unprofessional member of staff that was present on the train that day.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am fully prepared to defend myself in court and have a witness that is prepared to give evidence.

I sincerely hope that common sense and decency will prevail here and that you will terminate this matter by your recovery and prosecutions unit.

END

I have received a court date to attend the magistrate’s court to defend the attached offences.

I live in Harrogate and the court hearing has been set for the 2nd Jan in Doncaster. The letter was only received yesterday. I’m away until the 6th Jan.

Can I request a change of date and venue at this late notice? Also if I’m unable to attend and I am not successful in moving the date at this short notice can anyone give me an indication of the fine I would receive if the court make a judgement in my absence?

Hopefully this all makes sense, thank you in advance for any input.

 

[island]

Please can you share the date on the front page, the date the information was laid before the court? If it was after 3 December, the case was brought too late and is invalid.

 

[danielt1990]

Hi Island, thanks for your response. Here is the front page of the single justice procedure notice

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

Unfortunately they posted the details to the court before the 3rd December

 

[Titfield]

You can apply to the court for the hearing to be rescheduled to a latter date but at this short notice would have to provide good evidence as to why you could not attend the original date. Do you have such evidence? Can you also provide proof that the hearing notice was received yesterday?

If you plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court following a trial) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards Northern's costs (£150 is stated on the form)
- Compensation for the fares avoided (£3.70)

I do wonder though if the Magistrates may decide in any case to adjourn the case to a later date if you do not attend because of your alleged conduct and rebuttal and therefore may wish to hear from you in person before making their decision.

 

[danielt1990]

Hi Titfield,

We travel abroad, for holiday that was booked yesterday. The letter arrived yesterday and was only opened this morning as it was sat in the outside letterbox. I can provide proof of the holiday.

The other challenge would be I would really struggle to travel to Doncaster for 10am as I currently have no access to a car. I did not down Leeds or Harrogate as the preferred court. If we can move the date do you think there is any likelihood of moving the venue?

I’m conscious that as it’s such short notice the case will go ahead in my absence.

 

[Titfield]

Well you are either on holiday or not on holiday. If you are on holiday then the point about getting to Doncaster is irrelevant.

You need to contact the Clerk of the Court first thing tomorrow morning by phone to advise them of your inability to attend. You need to have your proof to hand.

Is there an email address for the clerk of the court on the paperwork? If so I would fire off an email today (with proof of the holiday) and then follow up with a phone call first thing tomorrow morning.

I would also email Northern of the issue so that their court representative is also aware of this so that they may inform the court on the day if necessary.

The clerk of the court may be able to move the location - I am not sure how the listing team works in such circumstances.

 

[danielt1990]

Thanks again for your response and advice. I’ll call the court first thing tomorrow morning and will follow up with an email containing details of the holiday and our return date. I’ll copy Northern in in the email, did court did however advise that as it’s a single justice prosecution that there wouldn’t be a representative from Northern.

Once again thank you for your advice

 

[Titfield]

Thanks again for your response and advice. I’ll call the court first thing tomorrow morning and will follow up with an email containing details of the holiday and our return date. I’ll copy Northern in in the email, did court did however advise that as it’s a single justice prosecution that there wouldn’t be a representative from Northern.

Once again thank you for your advice

Re Northern attending point taken but still worth notifying them just in case.

 

[jamiearmley]

For information, if you have left it too late to purchase a ticket for the train you wish to travel on, you may book the next service as long as you do not select an advance ticket. Regardless of the train you select, the anytime single is always an available, although more expensive, option, although you may have to click through to find it.

Advance tickets, although widely available, are very definitely train specific, especially with regard to Northern's 'short distance' advance single tickets.

No one likes paying more - but in this circumstance you should have done.

'sold out' doesn't mean sold out - it's a quick way of indicating that you can no longer buy for a specific train.

As time goes on, the availability of advance single tickets will end earlier and earlier in advance of train departure, as the move away from 'advance purchase on the day' gathers pace, and this should be taken into account when planning journeys.

 

[danielt1990]

Cheers Jamie, it was all a little rush, my mistake and it’s going to be an expensive one at that.

The first charge is the one I want to defend as I’m not guilty of what’s been alleged.

Will hopefully have my day in court, will update once I have one.

 

[AlterEgo]

Cheers Jamie, it was all a little rush, my mistake and it’s going to be an expensive one at that.

The first charge is the one I want to defend as I’m not guilty of what’s been alleged.

Will hopefully have my day in court, will update once I have one.

Why do you want to go to court? Why wouldn’t you try to settle matters outside of court to avoid all the hassle?

 

[Trainman40083]

For information, if you have left it too late to purchase a ticket for the train you wish to travel on, you may book the next service as long as you do not select an advance ticket. Regardless of the train you select, the anytime single is always an available, although more expensive, option, although you may have to click through to find it.

Advance tickets, although widely available, are very definitely train specific, especially with regard to Northern's 'short distance' advance single tickets.

No one likes paying more - but in this circumstance you should have done.

'sold out' doesn't mean sold out - it's a quick way of indicating that you can no longer buy for a specific train.

As time goes on, the availability of advance single tickets will end earlier and earlier in advance of train departure, as the move away from 'advance purchase on the day' gathers pace, and this should be taken into account when planning journeys.

Yes, this sold out comment does seem to catch people out. In reality, anyone should be able to buy a ticket for any train. Okay, it may not be an advance ticket, but it could be an off-peak etc.

 

[Spaceship323]

The first charge is the one I want to defend as I’m not guilty of what’s been alleged.

Have you taken legal advice on this? I wouldn't advise trying to defend a charge in court without a solicitor as the magistrate will just look at the evidence presented and find you guilty
1. Did you travel without a valid ticket - yes
2. Did you refuse to give details - yes
I'd plead guilty by post,as per the SJPN, get the 1/3 off the fine for an early plea and be done with it
Any complaint against the member of staff should be a separate issue

 

[some bloke]

court did however advise that as it’s a single justice prosecution that there wouldn’t be a representative from Northern.

If you have a court hearing date, then it's no longer a single-justice case and Northern can attend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

If you upload all of the correspondence (anonymised) both to and from you, people may be better able to advise how to try for a settlement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

It wouldn't be surprising if Northern want to go to court at least for the swearing charge, because settling would mean deciding one or both of their employees was/were wrong about who swore.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

Did you think there were no tickets at all for sale which would be valid on that train?

 

[Snow1964]

It wouldn't be surprising if Northern want to go to court at least for the swearing charge, because settling would mean deciding their employees were wrong about who swore.

Having twice done jury service, the differing versions of who said what make the evidence of both unreliable, and have to look at other evidence. Not great position in court if the employee who recorded it is not reliable, as evidence could be flakey

Did you think there were no tickets at all for sale which would be valid on that train?

Op seems to suggest a tickets sold out message came up on the TVM. The terminology rather suggests no more are available especially if it didn't at same time offer other tickets in different price bands.

 

[Spaceship323]

Op seems to suggest a tickets sold out message came up on the TVM.

OP stated tickets unavailable on the app, which suggests to me they were on Trainline on their phone

 

[some bloke]

the app showed the journey as sold out. The ticket machine at the rail station also was out of service. I have a screenshot of the Trainline app and a picture of the machine not working.

I tried to purchase a ticket for this service but was unable to on both the Northern Rail app and The Trainline app. The ticket was “unavailable”.
I then tried to purchase a ticket at the machine as Pannal station but it said the service was sold out.

When you communicate with Northern and/or the court, please make sure what you say/write is accurate, and consistent enough not to give the wrong impression.

You don't want the court to think you"re unreliable because you get a detail wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

A mistake about who swore might seem unusual and less credible, for example if both of you were close to the employee/s and facing them.

It could be more understandable if you were both further away and facing away from them.

You could have a think about that kind of thing (defence), and about what the apps and machine said about what was not available (possible mitigation, or reason to apologise).

 

[reb0118]

Were the staff members wearing body worn cameras?

 

[danielt1990]

Why do you want to go to court? Why wouldn’t you try to settle matters outside of court to avoid all the hassle?

Sorry just caught up on this, I contacted northern to attempt to settle it. They advised if it had only been the ticket offence I could have settled it. Due to the offence of abusive behaviour it has to be settled at court. Well at least that what what they advised me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

Were the staff members wearing body worn cameras?

No, if they were it would go in my favour. I’m sure there is CCTV on the train but they are unlikely to give that as it would go against their claim

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

Have you taken legal advice on this? I wouldn't advise trying to defend a charge in court without a solicitor as the magistrate will just look at the evidence presented and find you guilty
1. Did you travel without a valid ticket - yes
2. Did you refuse to give details - yes
I'd plead guilty by post,as per the SJPN, get the 1/3 off the fine for an early plea and be done with it
Any complaint against the member of staff should be a separate issue

I haven’t sought any legal advice as I expect it would become very costly.

I would have claimed guilty to the ticket offence but as a matter of principal, I didn’t want to admit guilt for so throng I hadn’t done.

 

[danielt1990]

OP stated tickets unavailable on the app, which suggests to me they were on Trainline on their phone

From memory, the Trainline app showed as sold out for this journey or something similar. I could be wrong and it said unavailable.

The ticket machine said “there are no reservable seats on the service you have selected. Please respect another service”

I have a video recording of me trying to buy a ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

If you have a court hearing date, then it's no longer a single-justice case and Northern can attend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

If you upload all of the correspondence (anonymised) both to and from you, people may be better able to advise how to try for a settlement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

It wouldn't be surprising if Northern want to go to court at least for the swearing charge, because settling would mean deciding one or both of their employees was/were wrong about who swore.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

Did you think there were no tickets at all for sale which would be valid on that train?

I believe I’d just left it too late to buy the ticket, about 10 mins before the journey time. The cost of the ticket was the same for both journeys.

 

[Trainman40083]

From memory, the Trainline app showed as sold out for this journey or something similar. I could be wrong and it said unavailable.

The ticket machine said “there are no reservable seats on the service you have selected. Please respect another service”

I have a video recording of me trying to buy a ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==


I believe I’d just left it too late to buy the ticket, about 10 mins before the journey time. The cost of the ticket was the same for both journeys.

Well, you can't reserve seats on any Northern trains, so that covers that. You may have left it too late to buy an advance ticket, but even a couple of minutes before the train is due, it should still be possible to buy A train ticket. You could have just been trying to buy an advance ticket that was simply not an option at that time

 

[AlterEgo]

OP, has your brother been issued with any paperwork?

 

[Ducatist4]

Advance tickets are cheaper but are only valid on the specific service listed on the ticket (usually). If you tried to buy an advance ticket with only ten minutes to go to departure they may very well have been sold out. If you'd just bought a slightly more expensive standard ticket you'd have been okay.

 

[mikeg]

Advance tickets are cheaper but are only valid on the specific service listed on the ticket (usually). If you tried to buy an advance ticket with only ten minutes to go to departure they may very well have been sold out. If you'd just bought a slightly more expensive standard ticket you'd have been okay.

Not helpful when pseudo compulsory reservations apply. How normal people are meant to know to buy for a different train because the industry likes carting fresh air around I’ll never know . My fear of such nonsense was that it’d result in the northern goon squad reporting people was always there. Now it has been proven.
IMHO if the industry wants to play such stupid games they should allow people at unstaffed stations to pay on the train. Heck the advice from LNER in such situations is to visit the ticket office, which we all know doesn’t exist at Pannal.

My hunch is the op was trying to connect to an LNER service? Op: what was your final destination? Either way I find journey planner tvms inappropriate for this reason alone.

 

[AlterEgo]

None of this speculation is helpful. The OP didn’t have a ticket and boarded without one, and doesn’t have a defence to that offence.

 

[mikeg]

None of this speculation is helpful. The OP didn’t have a ticket and boarded without one, and doesn’t have a defence to that offence.

True. It's just bad that the machine made it seem like the opportunity to purchase for that train wasn't there. A lack of opportunity to purchase is usually a defence. But as you say, there was techinically an opportunity to purchase.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Can you just clarify what, if anything, you responded to the initial SJP notice? There were 3 options, plead guilty and have the case heard by a single justice, guilty but have the case heard in open court, or not guilty.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Having twice done jury service, the differing versions of who said what make the evidence of both unreliable, and have to look at other evidence. Not great position in court if the employee who recorded it is not reliable, as evidence could be flakey

There's no jury at a magistrate's court. The case will be decided on the basis of OP not having a ticket for the right train. It's fairly open and shut at this point.

Link to an explanation:

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/victim-support/going-to-court/how-courts-work/

There's no jury in a magistrates’ court. The district judge decides if the defendant is guilty or not and what sentence to give.

There's a longer set of articles out there which are interesting reading. While juries might be persuaded by their own loyalties either way, the legal system (thankfully) doesn't rest on sentiment but on evidence and law.

Magistrates are generally trained to be open-minded and receptive to a lot of conflicting viewpoints, as well as to make decisions impartially and objectively based on matters of law as advised by clerks in the court, so automatically assuming they would side with the defendant is giving OP false hope, particularly if they are legally speaking guilty of a strict liability offence such as not holding a valid ticket. There might be wiggle room in sentencing for mitigation and the vagaries of Northern's process might come into play but I'd suggest we not rely too much on them dismissing key evidence from the other side and not give OP false hope about this.

 

[philthetube]

Find out if the train you were travelling on has CCTV, others on here will be able to help, if you end up in court and they do not produce any you can ask why, it will look bad on them if they cannot give a sensible answer.

It may even be worth your while to have a look at a train to see where cameras are located so you will know if all available footage is shown.

of course thi8s may prove to be a waste of time, but will not do any harm.

 

[scrapy]

Find out if the train you were travelling on has CCTV, others on here will be able to help, if you end up in court and they do not produce any you can ask why, it will look bad on them if they cannot give a sensible answer.

It may even be worth your while to have a look at a train to see where cameras are located so you will know if all available footage is shown.

of course thi8s may prove to be a waste of time, but will not do any harm.

I think all northern services have CCTV and have had since the 319s were withdrawn a year or so ago.