Exact Fare Only TVM On Thameslink

[allbarbarry]

Hello all,

I often use Thameslink services and sometimes board at a station without a ticket office and only a ticket vending machine present accepting payments in both cash and card. Sometimes this TVM will display ‘Exact fare only’ if choosing the option to pay the ticket in cash - presumably when there’s not been enough coins collected or loaded into the machine.

If wanting to pay in cash and having the requisite fare, albeit not in exact change, would this count as a broken ticket machine under the NRCoT?

If so, how are you supposed to pay for your journey in that situation? As you’re more than aware, Thameslink is driver-only operated without guards/other train staff available to sell you tickets. I’ve also never seen an ‘Excess fares’ or ‘Fares to pay’ office at any of the main Thameslink stations in London. I could imagine one could have some difficulty if faced by an revenue protection inspector on the train or leaving at one of those London stations.

Although I’m not sure if it’s relevant or not, there is also a ‘Permit to Travel’ machine at the station. However, it has been broken for as long as I can remember.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Barry

 

[signed]

I don't know how it works over on those TVMs, but most vending machines that state you must give exact change will gladly accept if you put over the amount, but not give any change back

 

[norbitonflyer]

As tghere ius no contract until you have bought a ticket, you have the choice of paying over the odds or not using the service. Same as with car park machines or any other vending machine that does not give change.

One reason car park operators don't like "pay on exit" is that a contract does exist as soon as you have parked, and if you overpay on leaving, a debt is created which they are obliged to settle, using legal tender.

 

[Haywain]

If wanting to pay in cash and having the requisite fare, albeit not in exact change, would this count as a broken ticket machine under the NRCoT?

I tthink it probably would, but I would go through the process and see what on-screen instructions were given at the payment stage. There is no requirement to overpay, and it would seem strange for the TVM to accept an overpayment if it isn't issuing some sort of voucher to allow the overpayment to be reclaimed - I would expect the machine that says "exact fare only" to not issue a ticket if that specific condition is not met.

I could imagine one could have some difficulty if faced by an revenue protection inspector on the train or leaving at one of those London stations.

I can imagine you would if you did not apporach the barrier staff. in an attempt to buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Discuss223]

It's not a customer focussed way of doing things. The convenience should be prioritised towards the customer, not the service provider. You could submit a complaint to Thameslink & The Department For Transport. The TVMs at stations I use have a float of change that is replenished regularly. Cash users should be made to feel welcome, not as an after thought.

 

[Intermodal]

It's not a customer focussed way of doing things. The convenience should be prioritised towards the customer, not the service provider. You could submit a complaint to Thameslink & The Department For Transport. The TVMs at stations I use have a float of change that is replenished regularly. Cash users should be made to feel welcome, not as an after thought.

Wanting to use cash is not a protected characteristic. If anyone wishes to pay via an objectively less convenient method, then this is absolutely fine - however, does seem a bit odd to then be surprised when it is indeed, well, less convenient?

 

[Discuss223]

Wanting to use cash is not a protected characteristic. If anyone wishes to pay via an objectively less convenient method, then this is absolutely fine - however, does seem a bit odd to then be surprised when it is indeed, well, less convenient?

That's subjective. If you deem it less convenient, it doesn't mean others do. I would expect a public transport operator to accept cash and provide vendors with a float. The Train Managers onboard have a float and the customer is supposed to buy before boarding, so why should someone face greater difficulty for doing the right thing and purchasing before boarding?

 

[Intermodal]

That's subjective. If you deem it less convenient, it doesn't mean others do. I would expect a public transport operator to accept cash and provide vendors with a float. The Train Managers onboard have a float and the customer is supposed to buy before boarding, so why should someone face greater difficulty for doing the right thing and purchasing before boarding?

I'm not sure I'm being particularly helpful here, but it does seem somewhat obvious: cash is just under 20% of all purchases made in the UK (generally), and TVMs account from anywhere between 3% and 18% of ticket sales (depending on the locality) - it's not a priority - especially when there are nearly endless other (more) convenient options which you may choose to exercise in order to exercise your desire to obtain a ticket.

 

[Discuss223]

I'm not sure I'm being particularly helpful here, but it does seem somewhat obvious: cash is just under 20% of all purchases made in the UK (generally), and TVMs account from anywhere between 3% and 18% of ticket sales (depending on the locality) - it's not a priority - especially when there are nearly endless other (more) convenient options which you may choose to exercise in order to exercise your desire to obtain a ticket.

I wrote out a long long reply to this but said "thread could not be found" when I went to post, so I am streamlining it here. Cash usage is on the increase, by up to 154% in some cases, according to building society Nationwide. A fully operational ticket vending machine that takes cash and has a float to give change should form a key part of revenue protection, by giving customers an adequate opportunity to purchase tickets before boarding the train. Operators & the DfT seem to neglect this, especially Northern, whose stations in the Hope Valley don't take cash. They do however issue Promise To Purchase slips but that doesn't bring revenue to the railway and merely slows down the Senior Conductor as he goes about his duties onboard. Bus services are legally obliged to accept cash to keep their operator's licence as a public service provider. Railways should be the same and that includes having a float and being ready to trade. The OP shouldn't be encountering the problems highlighted, especially on such a heavily governed network.

Cash back: ATM use rises as people use cash to budget with last branches in town seeing spikes of up to 154%

Cash usage rises for second year in a row with 31.4 million withdrawals made from Nationwide ATMs last year Competitor branch closures see average ATM usage increase 55% in towns where Nationwide is last branch in town Nationwide ATMs in Twickenham, Redruth and Purley see respective rises in...

www.nationwidemediacentre.co.uk

• Cash usage rises for second year in a row with 31.4 million withdrawals made from Nationwide ATMs last year
• Competitor branch closures see average ATM usage increase 55% in towns where Nationwide is last branch in town
• Nationwide ATMs in Twickenham, Redruth and Purley see respective rises in withdrawals of 154%, 144% and 92%
• ATMs not just for withdrawals as nearly half of transactions for services such as mini-statements or paying bills

 

[Intermodal]

By the way Barry, I suppose I do owe you an actual answer to your original question.

Does a machine that does not give change qualify as broken?

Well - I suppose you may argue that you perceive this to be broken. However, it would appear to be functioning as intended, wouldn't it?

If so, how are you supposed to pay for your journey in that situation?

Well, one would rather suppose that it may indeed be necessary - whether one might like it or not - to utilise another mode of payment if one does not possess the precise amount of change demanded and also does not wish to overpay.

I must say, I do accept that it is of quite a normal and reasonable happenstance for an individual to hold a preference over the precise manner in which they do things, whether that should be the medium with which they exchange money with the railway company in order to affect the purchase of an authority to travel on train services, or indeed which way round their prefer to hang their toilet paper (clearly 'over the top' is correct here!). It does, however, also appear to be true that - in the grand scheme of things - even an individual who had the most severe and undying of preferences towards utilising cash payments would not be even moderately inconvenienced by, upon occasion, being required to utilise their debit card, credit card, cellular telephony, watch, laptop, oyster card, landline telephone, travel agent or any of the other various methods in which it is possible to procure a ticket - and certainly at least two or three of the aforementioned will be readily, and indeed easily, accessible to them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2024 ==

Operators & the DfT seem to neglect this, especially Northern, whose stations in the Hope Valley don't take cash.

My understanding of the situation with Northern - as you have quite rightly pointed out - neglecting to accept cash payments at their Ticket Vending Machines in some (all?) locations, is that it did so happen that said machines were indeed often subject to the theft of their contents, thereby in fact leaving Northern in a significantly worse position than if they had not accepted any cash payments at all.

And it does quite seem that they have now elected to take this exceedingly logical course of action in response - although I do acknowledge that this may disappoint, frustrate, annoy or otherwise perturb some rail users who would prefer to have such a facility available to them for their convenience.

They do however issue Promise To Purchase slips but that doesn't bring revenue to the railway and merely slows down the Senior Conductor as he goes about his duties onboard.

I would find it extremely difficult, in fact, I would suggest that it would be nearly untenable to me - quite unthinkable - to find myself in disagreement with any individual who may suggest that the 'Promise to Pay' system could use improvement. I would in fact go slightly further, and assert that the 'Promise to Pay' system is amongst the very least useful systems, devices, processes, procedures, concepts or other inventions ever dreamed up by human society. I'm not entirely sure what purpose it serves other than to empower the devious and inconvenience the innocent.

 

[Haywain]

It's not a customer focussed way of doing things. The convenience should be prioritised towards the customer, not the service provider. You could submit a complaint to Thameslink & The Department For Transport. The TVMs at stations I use have a float of change that is replenished regularly. Cash users should be made to feel welcome, not as an after thought.

It's likely to be that the TVM is out of suitable change or has a fault. It's not a conspiracy.

 

[Deerfold]

Bus services are legally obliged to accept cash to keep their operator's licence as a public service provider.

Does someone need to tell bus operators in London about this?

 

[trainJam]

The TVMs on WMT don't dispense notes for change (compared to supermarket ss) iirc.

I don't know how much float the machines have.

Unlikely, but a few people dumping £20 for a £3 ticket and you might be fed up with the coin drop sound effect!

If I encountered an exact fare only screen and no other TVM/Ticket office,
personally I would treat this as "not accept[ing] your preferred method of payment" (NRCOT 6.1.3.2). Whether or not other places do or don't, the railway still has this cash option.

 

[Intermodal]

@trainJam I'm not really making any particular comment on your view on cash, but rather just to make an entirely factual statement that you may find helpful: if the TVM is accepting cash but not offering change, then it is absolutely and without a doubt accepting your preferred method of payment. There is no requirement whatsoever to offer change, and the same would apply would that be on the railway or at any other retailer, service provider, business, or any other purveyor of assorted tangible or intangible offerings that could be exchanged for cash.

While I am sure most people would see sense, you would certainly be foul of the rules if, for some unfortunate reason, this came before a judge. But - thankfully - the railway industry does not have a history of unfairly prosecuting members of the public. Oh, wait - hmm.

 

[trainJam]

Ah, on WMT the machine does not accept overpayment at all.

It terminates the transaction.

 

[redreni]

@trainJam I'm not really making any particular comment on your view on cash, but rather just to make an entirely factual statement that you may find helpful: if the TVM is accepting cash but not offering change, then it is absolutely and without a doubt accepting your preferred method of payment. There is no requirement whatsoever to offer change, and the same would apply would that be on the railway or at any other retailer, service provider, business, or any other purveyor of assorted tangible or intangible offerings that could be exchanged for cash.

While I am sure most people would see sense, you would certainly be foul of the rules if, for some unfortunate reason, this came before a judge. But - thankfully - the railway industry does not have a history of unfairly prosecuting members of the public. Oh, wait - hmm.

Hmm. As has been observed above, however, it is unlikely a TVM would be configured to accept overpayments but not give change. Assuming that's the situation, I disagree with your analysis.

If my preferred method of payment for a £9 ticket is a £10 note, a TVM that will not accept the £10 note as payment for that £9 ticket is not accepting my preferred method of payment, particularly if I have cash in denominations which any reasonable person would expect to be able to use to make the purchase (i.e. not trying to use a £50 note to pay for a £1.50 ticket). Similarly with TVMs or ticket offices that don't accept Scottish banknotes: arguing that they would accept cash in different denominations, or notes issued by a different bank, doesn't get around the fact that when the individual case is considered, the customer had cash with them, which was their preferred method of payment, and it wasn't accepted.

Yes, you can argue that the method of payment (cash) was accepted, just not in the denominations held by the customer, but this is where the NRCoT is open to more than one interpretation. If your interpretation were correct, a passenger could be liable to be charged over the odds, issued a penalty fare or prosecuted for trying to pay on board or at their destination in a variety of circumstances where a faulty TVM is accepting cash, but only in very limited circumstances. If a TVM in England was accepting nothing but Scottish notes, or if a TVM anywhere was accepting nothing but 10p coins, would any reasonable person conclude that the TVM was accepting the customer's preferred method of payment under the NRCoT?

I agree with you that there probably isn't a formal requirement for TVMs to give change, but they are designed to give change. If they are operating in a degraded mode where they cannot give change, they become largely unusable for cash purchases, and the fact they are not operating as designed is surely relevant to how we interpret NRCOT 6.1.3.2.

If TVMs that accept cash were designed to offer to issue rail warrants or cashable vouchers in lieu of change, or even to offer the passenger the option to overpay, get a receipt and argue the toss with the TOC's customer services department if they want their money back, then that would be one thing, but they're not. When a TVM ceases to be able to issue change, it ceases to function as designed and ceases, in practice, to be able to accept cash where it is the customer's preferred method of payment but they don't have the exact change (which will often be the case).

 

[Intermodal]

Hmm. As has been observed above, however, it is unlikely a TVM would be configured to accept overpayments but not give change. Assuming that's the situation, I disagree with your analysis.

If you have cash and it will not accept it then of course I agree that it - quite literally - does not accept cash. This is clear.

I agree with you that there probably isn't a formal requirement for TVMs to give change, but they are designed to give change. If they are operating in a degraded mode where they cannot give change, they become largely unusable for cash purchases, and the fact they are not operating as designed is surely relevant to how we interpret NRCOT 6.1.3.2.

If TVMs that accept cash were designed to offer to issue rail warrants or cashable vouchers in lieu of change, or even to offer the passenger the option to overpay, get a receipt and argue the toss with the TOC's customer services department if they want their money back, then that would be one thing, but they're not. When a TVM ceases to be able to issue change, it ceases to function as designed and ceases, in practice, to be able to accept cash where it is the customer's preferred method of payment but they don't have the exact change (which will often be the case).

I don't want to simply dismiss offhand your quite reasoned argument, but I do believe it is quite clear that if the TVM will accept the cash you have, then it, well, accepts cash.

I'm not saying this should be correct, expected, normal, or that most people would deem it reasonable, but if it ended up in front of a court and the railway company particularly wanted to push it, I don't think it's a valid defence at all. Only being able to purchase something at a higher price than the lowest possible price is not an at all unusual situation - in fact, it is probably the most common situation people find themselves in when they purchase anything.

It's quite unusual for the railway, sure - but in general terms, the argument that it does not give change would hold no weight.

 

[allbarbarry]

Thanks all for the input through your responses so far.

I've done some research on this matter and found the somewhat relevant paragraph 8.5 from a document entitled 'Govia Thameslink Railway Penalty Fares Scheme', Issue 2, 30th September 2016. Does anyone have any idea if this is the most up-to-date version of that document? Please see the extract embedded below.

Of course, this deals merely with the realm of 'discretion'. It would seem to suggest that an Authorised Collector choosing not to issue a Penalty Fare in the situation is more of an exception, rather than the rule.



What remains to be seen is how on earth you're supposed to then buy a ticket on Thameslink. As I've already stated in my original post, there are no staff onboard the trains to sell you tickets and no 'Excess fares' or 'Fares to pay' desks I've seen at any of the London core stations.

I'm going to test the TVM by overpaying when it is next displaying 'Exact fare only', which I suspect will be sooner rather than later! I'm curious to see what it will or will not do.

Barry

 

[Intermodal]

Quite sincerely Barry, what are you trying to achieve exactly? If you are unhappy with the facilitates then speak to Thameslink. Or, you know, purchase a ticket through one of the other countless avenues available for you to do so (which would often be cheaper, too...)

 

[tram21]

Surely the course of action here is to use the at-station help point to seek advice, who will most likely grant you travel if they cannot assist in any other way? They must have a way (such as a code you can say to RPIs) to grant travel when circumstances mean you cannot pay as usual.

 

[Kite159]

At least the TVMs at Thameslink stations still take cash rather than going down the card only route for security (no risk of someone breaking into the TVM to steal the cash, nor a need for someone to come round as frequent to empty the cash)

 

[Mike395]

At least the TVMs at Thameslink stations still take cash rather than going down the card only route for security (no risk of someone breaking into the TVM to steal the cash, nor a need for someone to come round as frequent to empty the cash)

Other than DOO routes or those with non-revenue guards only, I'd prefer card-only TVMs generally at unstaffed stations with onboard staff dealing with the ever reducing amount of cash sales, but yes, for Thameslink specifically taking cash without change is probably the lesser of two evils if they do run out (IIRC it prints a coupon you can take to a ticket office to collect the rest).

 

[Kite159]

Or invest in a Northern style "Promise to Pay" system for the ever decreasing number of customers who only pay by cash, something they can present to gateline staff at the destination station or for any revenue staff whom board.

 

[redreni]

This is many years ago, but the early 90s cash-only queue-buster TVMs sometimes used to say "exact change only" but, in practice, tendering more than the fare would result in either:

(1) the cash tendered being returned and no ticket dispensed; or
(2) a ticket being dispensed and change being given.

The "exact change only" message seemed to be a warning that not all denominations of coins were available in sufficient quantity to guarantee that change could definitely be given, but until the customer actually selected a ticket and tendered some cash, it remained to be seen whether the machine would have enough change to complete the transaction.

In the case the OP has described, I certainly wouldn't be seeking to rely on the right to pay onboard or at the destination under the NRCoT without having tried to buy the ticket with cash from the TVM.

If it isn't possible, if I had no other means of paying then I would, if at all possible, film the failed attempt to buy a ticket. The reason for this is that if an RPI followed the guidance quoted above, called the control centre and they said the TVM was reporting its status as working and that nobody else had complained about said TVM, they may take the view that because they haven't been able to confirm that the TVM is defective, that amounts to the same thing as confirming it is working. So it's one of those cases where it's better to have evidence if possible. Although I suppose we're talking about a situation where the customer only has cash and no working smartphone (otherwise, notwithstanding that the customer may have a preference to pay using cash, it would be a great deal easier in this specific circumstance to just buy a ticket using a smartphone).

Subject to all the above, if you can't pay before boarding you pay at the first opportunity. If that's at the destination, so be it. If the destination has a gateline and the staff there can't sell you a ticket, you ask to be let through so as to buy a ticket from the ticket office or TVM.

 

[island]

no 'Excess fares' or 'Fares to pay' desks I've seen at any of the London core stations.

At a minimum, I have seen such facilities at

• Charing Cross
• London Bridge
• Waterloo East
• Victoria (Southeastern side)
• Kings Cross (Great Northern side)
• Paddington
• City Thameslink (Holborn viaduct side)
• Marylebone
• Cannon Street

There may be more, and there are further stations where ticket on arrival facilities are offered for at least some hours by staff with portable machines.

 

[redreni]

At a minimum, I have seen such facilities at

• Charing Cross
• London Bridge
• Waterloo East
• Victoria (Southeastern side)
• Kings Cross (Great Northern side)
• Paddington
• City Thameslink (Holborn viaduct side)
• Marylebone
• Cannon Street

There may be more, and there are further stations where ticket on arrival facilities are offered for at least some hours by staff with portable machines.

True, although I've rarely seen the Holborn Viaduct ticket office and excess fares window open (which may be a function of the times I pass through that way). And most of those other stations aren't on the Thameslink core (which is not to say somebody starting their journey at a Thameslink station wouldn't be going to or via them, of course).