No Trains on Boxing Day

[Geswedey]

I dont know about the other two , but I guess Merseyrail being run on behalf of the PTE should be able to more readily arrange ticket acceptance on whatever local busses are running . And being a self contained network probably has a bit more reliability . Although weather conditions were favourable this year I am sure I recall serious issues with 3rd rail icing in previous years but that might not have been specifically boxing day it might have just been aroung this period .

At Greater Anglia we had more trouble arranging ticket acceptance with other TOCs than Buses and the Underground, although other TOCs refusing point blank was quite rare, we had more trouble arranging sufficient rail replacement buses and taxis than with ticket acceptance.

 

[Topological]

Could engineering not still take place on a long block over Christmas and New Year. The only difference is that there would be more effect on services than there is where Boxing Day has no trains. It would still make sense for closures from evening of the 24th to morning of the 27th as well. It is just a case of advising before the timetable is written. Boxing Day would get a note like SX for Saturdays excepted and said routes would indeed have no trains. Closures when most lines are running happen everywhere all the time. I do not think engineering is a reason not to have Boxing Day services anywhere.

All that said, I think there are some routes where a service is not really needed. Yes it would cut some places off from the network, but they are at the moment anyway. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

 

[GLC]

Apart from the ridiculous statement of running DOO, why are we picking the 6th of January as the return to normal?

Nothing is ridiculous about expecting the (British !) railway to observe the Twelve days of Christmas

 

[12LDA28C]

Not at all - there is less demand overall, but the demand that is there serves a very strong social purpose.

"I'm glad we all follow Treasury's tune to save and make as much money as possible" is a self-defeating modern railway disease - if you apply the logic about "not much demand" elsewhere on the railway you'd be closing about a fifth of the network at least. Many lines make no money at all and in fact lose it hand over fist, but they are rightly kept open because the politics is that the railways serve society and not HM Treasury.

Britain is one of the only countries in the world which shuts down its railway network almost entirely across more than 48hrs of Christmas. I think anyone will have a hard time convincing me that we have it right and almost every other Christmas-observing country has it wrong. As others have alluded to, disruption payments have ossified this situation, alongside a lack of harmonisation of staff contracts - but those are obstacles and not objections to running trains at least on Boxing Day.

So now you acknowledge that there is less demand but seem to be claiming that travel on Christmas Day and Boxing Day would have a stronger ‘social purpose’ than for example any other two days during the week or weekend at another time of year? On what basis do you form that judgement? Why are people travelling to or from friends and relatives at Christmas more important than people travelling to work or school, or others travelling for leisure purposes in February, May or August (for example)? Who made you the arbiter of what has value to society and what doesn’t?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it’s not cheaper though, is it? Tonight, I’m returning to Manchester using British Airways because Avanti West Coast wanted such eye-watering fares for a direct train from London. Says it all.

I would hardly say Avanti's off peak singles are eye watering, and am very surprised you got BA for cheaper, particularly on 27/12 which is one of the busiest travel days of the year.

 

[Topological]

But it’s not cheaper though, is it? Tonight, I’m returning to Manchester using British Airways because Avanti West Coast wanted such eye-watering fares for a direct train from London. Says it all.

Hopefully, the fog will be ok. Manchester Airport has been suffering delays today.

Should post this as an article, the media like a good story about something improbable being cheaper than a train journey.

 

[800001]

I would hardly say Avanti's off peak singles are eye watering, and am very surprised you got BA for cheaper, particularly on 27/12 which is one of the busiest travel days of the year.

£76.30 off peak single.
£184.70 Anytime single.

 

[dk1]

Some BA flights on the few Heathrow-Manchester route are cancelled whereas Avanti appear to have delays of around 20 minutes though these are obviously not down to fog. Many Pendolinos on the route have been full & standing today.

 

[AverageJoe]

£76.30 off peak single.
£184.70 Anytime single.

I would imagine the journey time would be similar too with the train likely being the more comfortable option and also going straight in to Manchester City centre.

 

[AlterEgo]

There's a difference between maintaining an existing service and introducing a new one.

There might be, but "this makes a loss" is not a good reason to object on principle to providing a railway service and everyone here knows it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2024 ==

Some BA flights on the few Heathrow-Manchester route are cancelled whereas Avanti appear to have delays of around 20 minutes though these are obviously not down to fog. Many Pendolinos on the route have been full & standing today.

Imagine how much less of a complete cock up and how much less unpleasant travel today might have been if a lot of people had travelled home yesterday, for example.

 

[800001]

I would imagine the journey time would be similar too with the train likely being the more comfortable option and also going straight in to Manchester City centre.

Depending which London airport departing from.
As for Heathrow it’s Piccadilly line today or Tube to Ealing broadway and change for train due to Paddington area being shut.

 

[380101]

But they do agree to penalties being imposed if the employee backs out of voluntary commitments.... Where I am, if a driver backs out of Rest Day Work when they are required, they get a penalty of +3 on the equalisation score. In turn, this means they have less chance of getting RDW when others have lower scores.

I doubt this is an Aslef agreement, and is more likely to be a local depot agreement, reached after consulting all drivers at said depot in an open drivers meeting facilitated by the local rep, and not Aslef.

Certainly at my depot, we have local agreements surrounding "equalisation" for purposes of rdw and additional Sunday working. Aslef don't get involved with local depot agreements or equalisation, despite most local driver depot reps being Aslef members, the local rep is a company position.

 

[AverageJoe]

There might be, but "this makes a loss" is not a good reason to object on principle to providing a railway service and everyone here knows it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2024 ==


Imagine how much less of a complete cock up and how much less unpleasant travel today might have been if a lot of people had travelled home yesterday, for example.

They could have flown or driven yesterday.

 

[AlterEgo]

So now you acknowledge that there is less demand but seem to be claiming that travel on Christmas Day and Boxing Day would have a stronger ‘social purpose’ than for example any other two days during the week or weekend at another time of year? On what basis do you form that judgement?

Of course it would; Christmas is a special time of year and the railways in nearly every country run for the purpose of uniting families and friend groups - as well as taking many people to work - rather than pure avarice or commercial interest. If you disagree, you will either need to show me that Christmas running makes loads of money for the railways that do open in, say, Italy, or explain why this specific form of British Railway Exceptionalism is justified. Yes, there are barriers to running the service here, but they are neither insurmountable nor amount to an objection in principle to running trains...for people to ride on...to go places they need to be.

Why are people travelling to or from friends and relatives at Christmas more important than people travelling to work

Nobody said anything about importance.

Who made you the arbiter of what has value to society and what doesn’t?

Why are you so cross at people having an opinion? I'm allowed to have one, aren't I, just like you have yours. Do I have to explain that the stuff I post here is opinion and talk down to people here by prefacing everything as "Well, my opinion is..."?

They could have flown or driven yesterday.

"Why use the train when you can fly or drive" does not exactly promote the railway.

 

[Topological]

In terms of other industries, this is a curious quote from the Brighton and Hove Albion manager which has just gone through on the BBC feed:

Brighton manager Fabian Hurzeler, speaking to Amazon Prime: "Merry Christmas to everyone. It's a privilege to work this time of year. In Germany, most clubs have a holiday and a time to relax so I see it as a privilege that I'm part of being a coach in the Premier League."

The live feed link is: HERE

Has some further tangential relevance when we have been talking about other countries which do have rail services on Boxing Day.

 

[AverageJoe]

Of course it would; Christmas is a special time of year and the railways in nearly every country run for the purpose of uniting families and friend groups - as well as taking many people to work - rather than pure avarice or commercial interest. If you disagree, you will either need to show me that Christmas running makes loads of money for the railways that do open in, say, Italy, or explain why this specific form of British Railway Exceptionalism is justified. Yes, there are barriers to running the service here, but they are neither insurmountable nor amount to an objection in principle to running trains...for people to ride on...to go places they need to be.


Nobody said anything about importance.


Why are you so cross at people having an opinion? I'm allowed to have one, aren't I, just like you have yours. Do I have to explain that the stuff I post here is opinion and talk down to people here by prefacing everything as "Well, my opinion is..."?


"Why use the train when you can fly or drive" does not exactly promote the railway.

You appear to be suggesting that as trains didn’t run yesterday that’s why they are busy today.
That shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone so they could plan around it by travelling at a different time or using other forms of transport.

 

[dk1]

Imagine how much less of a complete cock up and how much less unpleasant travel today might have been if a lot of people had travelled home yesterday, for example.

Perish the thought. It certainly would never be me driving the train

 

[AlterEgo]

You appear to be suggesting that as trains didn’t run yesterday that’s why they are busy today.

Well, yes - trains are always exceptionally busy on the 27th because of the pent up demand from the 26th in particular. Many people travel home on Boxing Day by car, but those who can't often have to get the train on the 27th.

That shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone so they could plan around it by travelling at a different time

Well, not on the 26th.

or using other forms of transport.

Not everyone has another form of transport. That is sort of the point.

 

[LAX54]

Do you still have a full compliment of bobbies on for Christmas and Boxing Day?

No, only Panels and W/Stns that are open for Engineering blocks, or the passage of Ballast Trains.
If a siggie is booked on, but wants to be off, then he can ask 'nicely' for a booked off panel signaller to cover him/her

 

[dk1]

No, only Panels and W/Stns that are open for Engineering blocks, or the passage of Ballast Trains.
If a siggie is booked on, but wants to be off, then he can ask 'nicely' for a booked off panel signaller to cover him/her

Thanks for that mate.

 

[bramling]

Well, yes - trains are always exceptionally busy on the 27th because of the pent up demand from the 26th in particular.

Not my experience today. My journey into London - 1 other person in the carriage on the way up, and 2 others on the way home. I don’t doubt there are busy trains today, but it certainly universal.

Not everyone has another form of transport. That is sort of the point.

But they do have 363 other days to travel. Would such people be happy to pay a premium to cover the costs of providing rail travel on Boxing Day?

 

[AlterEgo]

But they do have 363 other days to travel. Would such people be happy to pay a premium to cover the costs of providing rail travel on Boxing Day?

Why would they have to pay a premium above, say, paying the usual fares for travel today?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nothing is ridiculous about expecting the (British !) railway to observe the Twelve days of Christmas

I suppose you also support six hour Sunday Trading Law limits for supermarkets, being another British Christian tradition?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2024 ==

Hopefully, the fog will be ok. Manchester Airport has been suffering delays today.

Should post this as an article, the media like a good story about something improbable being cheaper than a train journey.

I might actually, that's a good shout thank you. (And yes, I'm sat in an hour's delay)

 

[dk1]

Not my experience today. My journey into London - 1 other person in the carriage on the way up, and 2 others on the way home. I don’t doubt there are busy trains today, but it certainly universal.

8 passengers on this mornings 06:00 Norwich-Witham.

 

[Class 317]

8 passengers on this mornings 06:00 Norwich-Witham.

Which shows that the service on the days around or between Christmas and New Year should be reduced as lower demand but not that a service shouldn't run on the Boxing Day.

Also the bus from Witham and extended journeys probably put people of that need to be in London early etc.

If services were reduced on the proceeding days, between and after New year as appropriate to the days they fall on to reflect demand this would allow more staff time off and or less RDW required over the greater Christmas period.

 

[yorkie]

Does it matter?

I was merely questioning what someone else had said; whether or not it 'matters' isn't something I am arguing, and in any case, may be subjective.

 

[Class 317]

Not my experience today. My journey into London - 1 other person in the carriage on the way up, and 2 others on the way home. I don’t doubt there are busy trains today, but it certainly universal.




But they do have 363 other days to travel. Would such people be happy to pay a premium to cover the costs of providing rail travel on Boxing Day?

Is a premium what should be charged for a socially necessary service or are we saying the railway is not one?

 

[Rail Ranger]

But it’s not cheaper though, is it? Tonight, I’m returning to Manchester using British Airways because Avanti West Coast wanted such eye-watering fares for a direct train from London. Says it all.

Why not just buy an Off Peak Single from the ticket office at Euston?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why not just buy an Off Peak Single from the ticket office at Euston?

At what price?

 

[12LDA28C]

I doubt this is an Aslef agreement, and is more likely to be a local depot agreement, reached after consulting all drivers at said depot in an open drivers meeting facilitated by the local rep, and not Aslef.

Certainly at my depot, we have local agreements surrounding "equalisation" for purposes of rdw and additional Sunday working. Aslef don't get involved with local depot agreements or equalisation, despite most local driver depot reps being Aslef members, the local rep is a company position.

Exactly this type of agreement is widespread across many TOCs so not really a local depot agreement at a specific location as you claim.