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I wonder how many complaining that we aren't working on boxing day are office workers who would blow their minds if they were told all the other bank holidays are cancelled from now on and they have to work them.
I get 2 guaranteed days off per year to spend with my family (Christmas and boxing day), no amount of money would get me working them if I got a choice.
I've heard a lot of staff complaining about having to run a full service on New Years Day, especially before 2pm where there are very few passengers. Maybe a compromise could be reached where a limited daytime service is run boxing day, with a PM only service new years day with a guarantee of one or the other off?
I've heard a lot of staff complaining about having to run a full service on New Years Day, especially before 2pm where there are very few passengers. Maybe a compromise could be reached where a limited daytime service is run boxing day, with a PM only service new years day with a guarantee of one or the other off?
Harpo, you are correct. Schedule 5 of a standard TAA excludes the right to operate on both the 25th and 26th December.
Any operator who wishes to alter that would, if access could be made available, be liable for all the additional NR staffing costs for that day. That’s one reason why both Lumo and Hull Trains currently don’t operate on Boxing Day.
I wonder how many complaining that we aren't working on boxing day are office workers who would blow their minds if they were told all the other bank holidays are cancelled from now on and they have to work them.
Several large companies (including ones I have previously worked for), allocate public holidays as extra days of personal annual leave, to be taken whenever. Unless you explicitly book off the public holidays, you were expected to work. I wouldn’t have said that system was unsual. In fact, I find it more unusual in not having to book these days off (and arguably find it more annoying this way)
Boxing Day does seem to be generally regarded as different to other bank holidays, in that many more places are closed, or open with heavily reduced hours.
My gym for example is open every other day, but is closed Christmas Day and Boxing Day.
If we want to go down the road that these days aren’t any more special than anything else, then let’s have everything open, and rather more of the population at work. As ever, the problem is that the first of those two things would be popular, the second isn’t.
I’ve found Christmas this year extremely unpleasant to be honest, it seems to have brought out the worst elements of greed, selfishness and aggression in people. Personally I’d scrap the whole thing, then we could have had a full weekday service on Boxing Day, which I’m sure would please a few people here.
That's why I said to run a service on a 100% voluntary basis. My route serves Heathrow Airport. Heathrow Airport is open and that's very poor not to provide a public transport service to a major international airport.
Drivers here get that when on frost protection duties over Christmas (starting up diesel engines to warm them up and prevent the coolant freezing). Plenty of volunteers. I wouldn't want any less to come in on a voluntary basis. But as others have pointed out, given the fixed costs of staffing signal boxes, providing MOMs etc., a skeleton service can't make money. You'd need to provide much more.
Fallacious comparisons with disparate public services including large parts of the NHS, local govt, pharmacies etc keep being made.
You can't stockpile transportation in any sensible way that isn't catastrophically costly in money and time to the user. As such, these comparisons are specious. In all cited examples you can either a) "stockpile" whatever you need from those services at a different time at essentially no detriment to yourself or b) there is emergency provision at all times for actual emergencies, in which case inconvenience is irrelevant.
Not really “fallacious” - there’s no reason why non emergency operations couldn’t be scheduled 24/7, and on bank holidays and weekends. The reason they aren’t? Surgeons and consultants don’t like working on bank holidays either, and nobody wants to pay what they would require in order to be prepared to do so - exactly the same as much of the rest railway.
Some parts of the railway are operating, today, and there is also transport available today in various forms - my OH took an Uber 60 miles from London to join me and the parents down in rural Kent this AM, which only cost approx twice a single train fare for the same distance. The roads were pretty quiet heading back in the car this eve - quieter even than a regular Sunday I would suggest.
Transportation is inherently unique in this regard. Setting up a transport company or choosing to work as an individual in transportation ought to involve implicitly accepting that at the outset. It's only Railway Exceptionalism that has allowed the current stupid impasse to be arrived at. On one side the provision is via inherently monopolistic bodies and corporations and on the other the nature of the industry means they have to deal with effective labour monopolies like ASLEF and the RMT. Everyone else just gets to pick up the ever-exploding tab for a "We don't care what you think" service while these adversaries wield their power against each other. How lovely. It's so bad, in darker moments it almost makes you think the tories had a point...
It is explicit for many transport workers that they will not have to work on certain days. Nothing to do with “exceptionalism”, just that nobody wants to pay enough to crank up the network to run a Sunday service on a day when not that many people will want to use it. Your description of the industry isn’t entirely inaccurate, however your last sentence is revealing, and suggests it’s the staff side of the equation you have an issue with, while ignoring that the DfT controls the “monopolistic bodies”, and that their ineptitude/shortsightedness is the cause of many of the current issues.
Absolutely, so long as the price is right. @baz962 gave the example above. Three or four times normal time plus other days in lieu is going to be a healthy offer and will incentivise plenty of volunteers. It’ll be worth it for London Overground and one or two others, who I guarantee will make far more money in fares than spent on those pay incentives, I’m less convinced it will be for much of the rest of the network.
It’s notable how - in stark contrast to Northern and GWR falling apart on a daily basis - we never hear of London Overground having staffing issues; that’s because they treat and pay their staff well. It’s a simple formula that breeds success.
I've just asked, the Mrs, who is a midwife, thinks it's standard Bank Holiday enhancement only for Christmas Day, plus any top ups, eg if it's a weekend, or night pay from 10PM until 6AM. Not a great uplift, but better than a kick in the teeth.
It’s notable that, despite the perception of railway unions being stronger than NHS unions, a “Standard bank holiday enhancement” is not something most traincrew get. For most of us bank holidays, apart from Xmas day and Boxing Day, simply aren’t a concept we benefit from. We even have to use annual leave for Xmas day and Boxing Day if rostered to work, despite no trains turning a wheel across much of the network. That said, I’m glad to hear that NHS staff get those enhancements - I’m sure they’re well deserved.
That longstanding arrangements haven’t changed also isn’t the staffs’ concern, though. It’s natural that those being asked to make changes to their working patterns will want to be paid well for doing so, especially when that involves Boxing Day working. Like it or not, it isn’t considered a “normal” bank holiday by most, and if the cost is considered too dear to justify across much of the network, so be it. We will continue as we are!
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Boxing Day does seem to be generally regarded as different to other bank holidays, in that many more places are closed, or open with heavily reduced hours.
My gym for example is open every other day, but is closed Christmas Day and Boxing Day.
If we want to go down the road that these days aren’t any more special than anything else, then let’s have everything open, and rather more of the population at work. As ever, the problem is that the first of those two things would be popular, the second isn’t.
I’ve found Christmas this year extremely unpleasant to be honest, it seems to have brought out the worst elements of greed, selfishness and aggression in people. Personally I’d scrap the whole thing, then we could have had a full weekday service on Boxing Day, which I’m sure would please a few people here.
It's now less than an hour to midnight on Boxing Day... perhaps the one thing we could all agree on is who's job it is to start the 'No trains on Boxing Day' thread in a year's time?
It's now less than an hour to midnight on Boxing Day... perhaps the one thing we could all agree on is who's job it is to start the 'No trains on Boxing Day' thread in a year's time?
How do you propose to provide that service with the Old Oak Common blockade in the way?
Drivers here get that when on frost protection duties over Christmas (starting up diesel engines to warm them up and prevent the coolant freezing). Plenty of volunteers. I wouldn't want any less to come in on a voluntary basis. But as others have pointed out, given the fixed costs of staffing signal boxes, providing MOMs etc., a skeleton service can't make money. You'd need to provide much more.
Perhaps not feasible every year. But it was about 5 years ago I actually drove 4 return trips between Paddington and Heathrow Airport on Boxing Day (it was tfl rail at the time). From memory, in my 6+ years at MTR this was the only year they have run a boxing day service.
I don't understand why the central tunnel was closed today for example. But easier day for me doing a few route refresher quizzes I suppose.
TfL certainly has occasional has staff shortages, you just don't hear about it as much since you notice it more going from hourly to every other hour than it going 5 minutes to 10 minute headways. All though with London Underground, station staff and maintenance staff shortages are more acute and last year there was lots of tube stations randomly closing for a few days as there wasn't enough staff to safely run them
TfL certainly has occasional has staff shortages, you just don't hear about it as much since you notice it more going from hourly to every other hour than it going 5 minutes to 10 minute headways. All though with London Underground, station staff and maintenance staff shortages are more acute and last year there was lots of tube stations randomly closing for a few days as there wasn't enough staff to safely run them
Keep on eye on the Elizabeth Line from 29th December onwards. Very little information in the public domain at the moment but there are big issues brewing up.
TfL certainly has occasional has staff shortages, you just don't hear about it as much since you notice it more going from hourly to every other hour than it going 5 minutes to 10 minute headways. All though with London Underground, station staff and maintenance staff shortages are more acute and last year there was lots of tube stations randomly closing for a few days as there wasn't enough staff to safely run them
Appreciate LU isn’t a happy ship for various reasons. LO do seem to turn in a consistently reliable service, though, and indeed are one of the few operators running a service today, when many can’t even staff their operations on “normal” Sundays, let alone Boxing Day!
As part of the tradition, I think I should recount this story, as I think I probably did previously
Back in the early noughties I hadn't taken the 27 Dec off work. Now for Christmas I was in Haywards Heath and my place of work was either Guildford or Old Woking.
Now I had a Netwirk away break or wanted to buy one (5 day return) and would happily have travelled back on 26 Dec but no trains ran that day.
Of course, such a ticket wasn't valid in the early morning of the 27.
I appreciate they don't see any value in running services on the 26 but surely given they aren't running, they could have relaxed the restrictions on the 27. A bit of Chrjstmaa good will. None of that though.
I don't drive a car so had no alternative options, unless I were to get a taxi on the 26 but that would be even more expensive than the early morning train cost.
Of course, these days I can work from home and so if they don't want to allow a cheaper ticket, it doesn't matter, I just won't travel at that time.
I'm surprised lines like the Noeth Downs Line, which runs Reading to Gatick Airport and now has 2 trains an hour, most hours, doesn't get enough passengers to justify a service but then it is only a 3 car train, so I guess not.
Had to make a couple of journeys by car today, owing to no buses or trains running.
I couldn’t believe the volume of traffic in the North West (99% cars) on the M56/M60/M6/M61
If only there was a Sunday type train service running on Boxing Day…but then again most of the North West still wouldn’t have any trains!
What is different about Boxing Day compared to any other bank holiday? This is a dreadful way to speak about your customers regardless of whether or not you would volunteer to work the day for a financial incentive.
This comes across more like general job-hating than anything else. There are loads of good and nice customers on the railway too; in fact the overwhelming majority of people are.
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You could make this argument against any Sunday travel, especially in places where staff are being paid overtime to work the service. That the railway hasn’t, in 30 years, moved to bring Sundays inside the working week in many areas isn’t the passenger’s concern. Nor are fares generally reflective of the “cost of providing the service”. And they shouldn’t be; railways are a utility and a public good.
I absolutely don’t hate the customers and acknowledge the fact that 99% of interactions are pretty positive and love meeting so many people. However Boxing Day is just a step too far with so many factors (out of my control) leading to overcrowding, disruption, exposure to abuse and threatening behaviour in addition to the usual stressors we are subjected to in a normal working day. Not wanting to work Boxing Day is not hate toward the customer. It’s acknowledging the fact that for my line it would be utter hell.
Continuing with the Overground tangent, did they inherit the contracts from Silverlink or did they negotiate terms from a blank slate? That might have made things easier
I absolutely don’t hate the customers and acknowledge the fact that 99% of interactions are pretty positive and love meeting so many people. However Boxing Day is just a step too far with so many factors (out of my control) leading to overcrowding, disruption, exposure to abuse and threatening behaviour in addition to the usual stressors we are subjected to in a normal working day. Not wanting to work Boxing Day is not hate toward the customer. It’s acknowledging the fact that for my line it would be utter hell.
Is this based on actual experience at Chiltern, Merseyrail, Scotrail, Greater Anglia, GTR, London Overground, LU or any other operator that runs trains on Boxing Day?
There obviously must be a reason why Dunblane to Hilton Jcn, and Perth to Dundee are not included, which would allow Glasgow-Perth- Dundee services, while Edinburgh-Perth and Edinburgh-Dundee services ran. I would be interested to know what it was.
As a driver, who does actually value Christmas day and Boxing Day off... I do however think we should run a Sunday service on both days (using volunteer drivers).
You would need to volunteer about 2-3 months in advance, and the timetable would be constructed around actual availability of traincrew.
It is ridiculous we shut the network fully down for 2 days.
As a driver, when do you suggest the essential engineering work takes place if it can’t be done over Christmas and Boxing Day because trains are running?
Seems to work just fine at TOCs that already operate on Boxing Day.
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As a driver, when do you suggest the essential engineering work takes place if it can’t be done over Christmas and Boxing Day because trains are running?
It’s 02:30 and I’m just heading in to work.
Yesterday (Boxing Day) I was in bed for 19:30. I also went to bed a little earlier on Xmas day to try to get some sleep coordination.
Yesterday I didn’t drink, and before going to bed I took some time to look over the WONs so I’m prepared for today.
If I were to be doing this shift on Boxing Day i would have had to done the above on Xmas day, which for most people would be considered a bit of a rubbish Xmas.
I would however do it, if it were my booked work and or I was able to opt in and also be paid a good amount extra for it.
I think there is a number of guards and drivers that would opt it and do this, but it would have to be worth it.
Also there is a number of staff who don’t celebrate Christmas so maybe it wouldn’t be an issue for them.
A few years ago I read an article of a passenger who brought a return ticket for travel on 25th December and actually waited for it then complained to the media complete with a compo face.
It does raise a question was the ticket clerk clueless ?
*Since the source material is the 90s, not everything is on the internet.
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