Passenger trapped in Elizabeth line door

[357]

Yes I have been a driver for MTR Elizabeth Line and worked their Metro service. I'm a mainline driver now.

That's how I know that dispatching the 345 can become routine and autonomous, which is something we all need to guard against.

If we allow a culture to develop where we are not allowed to ask questions about whether something was done safely or whether there are areas that we could improve, then we are headed towards somewhere very dangerous.

Are you able to be a driver for Crossrail without being a fully qualified mainline driver? You couldn't when I was there but that was before the COS opened.

I also used to work DOO on Electrostars but never let the timetable or time come before safety.

Once interlock is achieved, I used to wait for all the doors on the TMS to display blue, then check the PTI again and then move. When I was tired I'd point and say out loud "Interlock. Doors closed. Signal is green. Train is clean" and then take power

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2024 ==

If we allow a culture to develop where we are not allowed to ask questions about whether something was done safely or whether there are areas that we could improve, then we are headed towards somewhere very dangerous

I agree, however having had MTR attempt to sue me once (unsuccessfully) since I left I only post information about the line/company that I have hard evidence of.

 

[RailExplorer]

Yes I have been a driver for MTR Elizabeth Line and worked their Metro service. I'm a mainline driver now.

That's how I know that dispatching the 345 can become routine and autonomous, which is something we all need to guard against.

If we allow a culture to develop where we are not allowed to ask questions about whether something was done safely or whether there are areas that we could improve, then we are headed towards somewhere very dangerous.

MTR EL drivers are mainline drivers...

 

[Horizon22]

The Driver should have been allowed enough time to pause for a second or two to relax and not hurry. They should also not be so conditioned, have work so repetitive, that the dispatch procedure becomes autonomous. I wonder if RAIB's report will blame the management.

What does that even mean? "Allowed"? The driver is responsible for dispatch and if they feel the need to take a few extra seconds to ensure it is safe, then so be it.

If a request for a delay report comes through you just mention high passenger loadings presumably. Better a 1 minute delay than having a potential incident.

Naturally metro, DOO work will be repetitive and on a line with only 4 routes (to Reading/Maidenhead, to Heathrow, to Shenfield and to Abbey Wood), much of which is in ATO this will happen and drivers need (and are taught) techniques to manage this issue.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2024 ==

MTR EL drivers are mainline drivers...

I presume they mean intercity, guarded work at a different TOC, but it's a poor use of phrasing.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

Are you able to be a driver for Crossrail without being a fully qualified mainline driver?

Do you really think that MTR Elizabeth Line Drivers can be called Mainline Drivers? They're not even trained on Level Crossings. They don't do Mainline work.

 

[yorkie]

Do you really think that MTR Elizabeth Line Drivers can be called Mainline Drivers? They're not even trained on Level Crossings. They don't do Mainline work.

How do you define "mainline"? I strongly suspect most people would consider Paddington to Reading and Liverpool Street to Shenfield as "main lines".

 

[Horizon22]

Do you really think that MTR Elizabeth Line Drivers can be called Mainline Drivers? They're not even trained on Level Crossings. They don't do Mainline work.

Yes. You have a driving licence. "Mainline" in this instance includes in my - any probably many other's views - as driving a train on Network Rail infrastructure.

On the contrary, shunter drivers or depot drivers may not be included as "Mainline".

 

[357]

Do you really think that MTR Elizabeth Line Drivers can be called Mainline Drivers? They're not even trained on Level Crossings. They don't do Mainline work.

Did you have an EU/UK licence when supposedly driving for them?

Going from TOC to TOC you always find things you need to be trained on. Different companies decide to make their drivers competent on different things depending on what that feels is required.

Are you currently competent on absolute block and loco rescue? Third rail? Token machines?

 

[Juliet Barvo]

Yes. You have a driving licence. "Mainline" in this instance includes in my - any probably many other's views - as driving a train on Network Rail infrastructure.

On the contrary, shunter drivers or depot drivers may not be included as "Mainline".

Well, Bakerloo Line Tube Operators drive on Network Rail infrastructure so Yes Tube Operators are Mainline Drivers too

 

[bahnause]

When DOO was introduced at SBB, workload and safety were an issue due to the high number of repetitive tasks involved in dispatching and the shift of some of the drivers attention to the rear of the train.

However, I cannot say whether they were decisive for the introduction of DOO on a purely technical basis by relying on the interlock. Factors such as lower costs and shorter dispatch times also played a role. There is no need for additional equipment at stations or lighting requirements and therefore no risk of equipment failure.

 

[357]

Well, Bakerloo Line Tube Operators drive on Network Rail infrastructure so Yes Tube Operators are Mainline Drivers too

Hardly the same thing.

If you'd ever driven this route then you'd know the difference.

 

[RailExplorer]

Do you really think that MTR Elizabeth Line Drivers can be called Mainline Drivers? They're not even trained on Level Crossings. They don't do Mainline work.

SWR drivers don't learn about possessions (the inside bit) or ETCS. MTR drivers do learn about possessions and ETCS signalling. I am assuming some drivers in the country don't learn about AC or DC equipment. You only really need to learn the parts of the rule book that apply to your line of route and the driving based activities that you will undertake.

Bottom line is, MTR drivers are just as much drivers as Avanti, or any other TOC or FOC. Anyone that thinks differently, has some weird superiority feelings.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

Hardly the same thing.

If you'd ever driven this route then you'd know the difference.

Are you saying Elizabeth Line Drivers are superior to Tube Operators?

 

[Darandio]

Are you saying Elizabeth Line Drivers are superior to Tube Operators?

You tell us? It seems to be you that has introduced a driving hierarchy to the thread.

 

[357]

Are you saying Elizabeth Line Drivers are superior to Tube Operators?

London Underground drivers are competent on the lines they operate on to the appropriate standard.

As are mainline drivers.

There are mainline drivers that operate over London Underground routes too.

In all honesty I am currently doubting you are a driver in any capacity given the wild statements you've come out with.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

You tell us? It seems to be you that has introduced a driving hierarchy to the thread.

No, if anything I introduced the concept of "Mainline Drivers" and other Drivers, other commentators introduced "Superiority"

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2024 ==

Bottom line is, MTR drivers are just as much drivers as Avanti, or any other TOC or FOC. Anyone that thinks differently, has some weird superiority feelings.

Are you suggesting that Mainline Drivers are in someway "Superior" to other people?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2024 ==

London Underground drivers are competent on the lines they operate on to the appropriate standard.

As are mainline drivers.

There are mainline drivers that operate over London Underground routes too.

In all honesty I am currently doubting you are a driver in any capacity given the wild statements you've come out with.

I suggested that the Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, and in response you doubt whether I am a Driver. That's a fascinating reaction.

 

[357]

For the record having driven Mainline DOO metro work, and intercity trains with guards, the metro work is the more draining and harder work, with much more to go wrong.

Anyone who can work metro work without screwing up will find anything else easy.

Preferably any driver who will not complete safety checks properly due to time constraints, as has been hinted at, will have this picked up on assesment and put on an action plan before they kill someone.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

For the record having driven Mainline DOO metro work, and intercity trains with guards, the metro work is the more draining and harder work, with much more to go wrong.

Anyone who can work metro work without screwing up will find anything else easy.

Preferably any driver who will not complete safety checks properly due to time constraints, as has been hinted at, will have this picked up on assesment and put on an action plan before they kill someone.

Yes, I agree with you that Metro Work is far more intense than Mainline work. Which begs the question of why there has been such a violent reaction to the suggestion that the Elizabeth Line is a Metro. Bizarre really, maybe it reveals the hidden prejudices of those reacting so violently.

 

[43066]

I suggested that the Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, and in response you doubt whether I am a Driver. That's a fascinating reaction.

“Mainline driver” often is just shorthand for anyone with a European train driving license, so that does not include LU Train Ops and one or two other categories: Newcastle Metro(?), some track machine drivers, Sheffield tram-train drivers etc., notwithstanding that they drive over some parts of NR infrastructure. That does not imply any superiority of one group over another.

EL drivers are most definitely “mainline drivers” in that sense, albeit it is clearly also what most would consider a metro network.

With due respect I would have expected anyone who drove for the EL, or any other train operator for that matter, to appreciate that distinction, so I can see why people have doubted you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2024 ==

For the record having driven Mainline DOO metro work, and intercity trains with guards, the metro work is the more draining and harder work, with much more to go wrong.

Having also done both, 100% agreed.

 

[northeast10]

Yes, T&W metro drivers don’t hold a European train drivers licence however use NWR infrastructure for decent part of the network. Learn all associated rules - signalling, crossings, temporary block and emergency special working etc.

There has been a few instances in the past where a few tocs have taken T&W metro drivers on as qualified -tpe, gc, lumo off the top of my head. They have to resit psychometrics (if out of date) and are then put on some kind of shortened course.

 

[Spartacus]

This might be a strange question but why did the passenger have their hand in the door in the first place, very odd to me with no sense of self preservation. I wonder sometimes if the sensitive edge causes as many safety issues as it solves, if the expectation was that the door closes then passenger would probably be more inclined to stand back and not try to block it

All I can think is that passengers have learned that many Underground train doors have a 'sensitive edge' response to putting their hand in the closing doors, the doors would reopen, and they expect the same from the 'Elizabeth Line'. (I think it's also a large reason why the platform/train interface issue is such a big deal when it would be fairly unremarkable elsewhere). I've never seen anyone try stop a train departing by putting their hand in a closing door away from LU territory, not putting your hand in a closing door in something usually ingrained from childhood; it'll hurt. The odd bag or brolly, but not a body part.

 

[BigBus]

Do you really think that MTR Elizabeth Line Drivers can be called Mainline Drivers? They're not even trained on Level Crossings. They don't do Mainline work.

And yet they cover TPWS, CBTC, TPWS again and end with ETCS…all in one journey (All signals have their own rule book)

 

[Mattplans]

The RAIB have now released their update in response to the incident at Ealing Broadway.

Report 01/2026: Passenger trapped and dragged at Ealing Broadway

RAIB has today released its report into a passenger trapped and dragged at Ealing Broadway, 24 November 2024.

www.gov.uk

Summary​

At around 00:09 on Sunday 24 November 2024, a passenger at Ealing Broadway station was dragged along the platform by a westbound Elizabeth line train.

The train’s doors had closed on the passenger’s hand as they attempted to board. The train then departed with the passenger’s hand still trapped in the doors. This resulted in them being dragged on foot for about 12 metres along the platform, before being pulled free by another passenger and a member of platform staff. It is probable that the passenger sustained a minor injury in the accident, but RAIB has been unable to contact them following the accident to confirm this.

The accident occurred because the driver closed the doors while passengers were still leaving and boarding the train, and because the passenger attempted to board while the doors were closing. The train’s door system did not detect the presence of the passenger’s hand, and the train driver was not aware that the passenger’s hand was trapped before initiating the train’s departure.

An underlying factor was that measures used by MTR Elizabeth line to control the risks of passengers being trapped and dragged at Ealing Broadway station were not effective. Additionally, a possible underlying factor was that Network Rail did not conduct a thorough risk assessment for the replacement and relocation of a waiting room building.

Although not directly contributing to the accident, RAIB observed that safety-critical communications between the member of platform staff involved, the train driver, the signaller and the duty control manager did not result in a shared understanding of what had taken place. The effectiveness of the public address system available to staff on platform 3 was also reduced by poor connectivity of the handheld device. In addition, RAIB identified missed opportunities for MTR Elizabeth line to ensure their internal investigation recommendations were being assigned, managed and tracked through to completion. Finally, the standards for the testing and commissioning of driver only operation (DOO) CCTV do not mandate the requirement to introduce a realistic platform environment during testing.

 

[DavyCrocket]

All I can think is that passengers have learned that many Underground train doors have a 'sensitive edge' response to putting their hand in the closing doors, the doors would reopen, and they expect the same from the 'Elizabeth Line'. (I think it's also a large reason why the platform/train interface issue is such a big deal when it would be fairly unremarkable elsewhere). I've never seen anyone try stop a train departing by putting their hand in a closing door away from LU territory, not putting your hand in a closing door in something usually ingrained from childhood; it'll hurt. The odd bag or brolly, but not a body part.

Just to clarify that the sensitive edge does not reopen doors. A sensitive edge activation will apply emergency brake and halt train and on when doors are closed and locked and doors closed visual possible. The Train Operator is then accountable for safe continuation via a reset or override. There is a sensor within the rubber of one door leaf.

S stock for instance has a door obstacle system, such as if when closing, they are stopped, they will reopen a small distance and try again. This will happen for a number of times.

 

[philthetube]

This is part of paragraph 102 from the RAIB report:

The doors on class 345 trains remain compliant with the requirements of BS EN 14752:2005 to detect obstructions greater than 30 mm in thickness and 60 mm in height.

When an obstruction of this size is detected while the doors are closing, the doors will open, pause and then try to close up to another three times (recycling). After this, if the doors remain obstructed and traction interlock cannot be achieved, then the doors will ‘fault’ and remain open. The driver will receive a notification on a display in the cab (figure 13) with the relevant door illuminated, showing that there is an obstruction.

Although traction power can only be applied once the traction interlock circuit is complete (that is, when all doors are closed and locked) smaller diameter items may not be detected by the system if they become trapped in doors. Traction power will still be available in these circumstances.

S Stock doors perform way better than these standards, there is no way that the doors could be closed, and the doors not detect a trapped finger, they would also not drag anyone for 17 m regardless of what they were trapped with.

Why the standards are not set to require this level of safety beats me.

 

[NSEWonderer]

701s have sensitive edge and it with a stationary detection will alert driver, prevent power being taken and the affected door will stay partially open around the object that attempted to pull itself free whether that came from Inside or outside the train. Often ends up being someone getting caught by their bag strap just running into the train or an umbrella being used to try stop the door, caught and then person on platform pulls on it.

Dynamic is basically the same but the emergency brakes come on and that situation has to be handled plus obviously the potential trap and drag that has occurred.

TFL both 710s and 345s weren't specd with sensitive edge, I do wonder if the reason for that was potentially due to either reliability reasons(701s are very reliable however) or potentially the system deemed not necessary which is often the case with things on the Elizabeth line and even London Overground which eventually are proven otherwise.

 

[Horizon22]

701s have sensitive edge and it with a stationary detection will alert driver, prevent power being taken and the affected door will stay partially open around the object that attempted to pull itself free whether that came from Inside or outside the train. Often ends up being someone getting caught by their bag strap just running into the train or an umbrella being used to try stop the door, caught and then person on platform pulls on it.

Dynamic is basically the same but the emergency brakes come on and that situation has to be handled plus obviously the potential trap and drag that has occurred.

TFL both 710s and 345s weren't specd with sensitive edge, I do wonder if the reason for that was potentially due to either reliability reasons(701s are very reliable however) or potentially the system deemed not necessary which is often the case with things on the Elizabeth line and even London Overground which eventually are proven otherwise.

Might just be age and the quality of tech - 701s started construction in 2019, 345s started construction 2014-2015.

 

[kkong]

TFL both 710s and 345s weren't specd with sensitive edge, I do wonder if the reason for that was potentially due to either reliability reasons(701s are very reliable however) or potentially the system deemed not necessary which is often the case with things on the Elizabeth line and even London Overground which eventually are proven otherwise.

The RAIB report states, for the class 345:

105. TfL’s contract for the provision of Elizabeth line class 345 trains was awarded to Bombardier Transportation in February 2014. BS EN 14752:2015 which covered SET, was published after Bombardier had begun production. Although the Crossrail train specification for the class 345 included passive anti-drag measures (see paragraph 106), an active anti-drag functionality was not requested or added to the train specification later.

106. The Crossrail technical specification was based principally on compliance with the industry design standards for door obstacle detection at the time of design. TfL reported that Crossrail had elected to include the passive anti-drag requirement in the Crossrail technical specification as a practicable addition to the other, mandated, obstacle detection requirements in BS EN 14752:2005. With the passive anti-drag measure, the door leading edge seal design allows for items of clothing trapped in closed doors to be extracted without the need for excessive force. This requirement was taken by TfL from their train door standards used on the London Underground.

 

[NSEWonderer]

The RAIB report states, for the class 345:

Problem is a few items that have been caught including a ring on a finger of a dispatcher haven’t as easily been removed, aswell as the individual dragged partially in this incident which required two persons to pull free.

 

[Bikeman78]

I was surprised to read that the driver closed the doors and departed whilst people were still trying to get on and off. At the very least, people would have been overcarried or left behind. I'm also surprised that the fence wasn't mentioned in more detail. It prevents people from walking along platform 2 and therefore creates a pinch point on platform 3 at the narrow section by the waiting room. I will usually divert via the non busy side of a building on an island platform. Plenty of other people do the same.

 

[JamesT]

I was surprised to read that the driver closed the doors and departed whilst people were still trying to get on and off. At the very least, people would have been overcarried or left behind. I'm also surprised that the fence wasn't mentioned in more detail. It prevents people from walking along platform 2 and therefore creates a pinch point on platform 3 at the narrow section by the waiting room. I will usually divert via the non busy side of a building on an island platform. Plenty of other people do the same.

I'm assuming the fence is there because platform 2 will frequently have non-stop GWR trains running through at line speed, so it's mitigating that risk. It's not an uncommon setup.