Passenger trapped in Elizabeth line door

[Surreytraveller]

The person must have put their hand in a closing door therefore that person is at fault. It is time people took responsibility for their own safety

That's the attitude which gets people killed and causes disruption

 

[Vespa]

You don't need to put your fingers in the doors in the mistaken belief they will open, it's a Darwin move.

These train runs frequently every few minutes if miss on, hold back and wait for next one which will be a long shortly.

 

[Nottingham59]

The person must have put their hand in a closing door therefore that person is at fault. It is time people took responsibility for their own safety

Maybe they already had their hand through the doorway to hold onto the grab rail which is located inside the door?

Maybe they reached out to hit the moving "door open" button and missed? On the class 345 the door button is located on the door just next to the closing edge, a curious design choice to say the least.

 

[philthetube]

The class 345 will definitely have a sensitive edge but they're far from foolproof.

I'll be interested to see what actually happened, as my experience is that the 345 sensitive edge is extremely sensitive - someone running through the doors just as the hustle alarm sounds will, more likely than not, reset the whole cycle, even if they don't seem to touch the doors. That being said, I have noticed a bit of variation in how sensitive they seem to be. How much industry research has there been into how reliable these safety systems are, especially in the light of all the LU trap and drags in the last few years?

I would consider the sensitive edge on S stock to be foolproof, when a driver on the Met I played about with a train when I had some stand time, it took around 2/5lb of pressure on a string with a knot in it to operate the sensitive edge, you know when it has operated as there is a clicking sound.

As far as I am aware there has never been a trap and drag incident with an S stock, I would be surprised to be prover wrong.

I googled it and could not find any.

Lots on the lines using older stock.

 

[Bikeman78]

Maybe they already had their hand through the doorway to hold onto the grab rail which is located inside the door?

Maybe they reached out to hit the moving "door open" button and missed? On the class 345 the door button is located on the door just next to the closing edge, a curious design choice to say the least.

The class 323 have the buttons on the outer edge. Moving the button to the middle seems to have taken place when the class 170 were built.

 

[357]

From my observations, the doors will try to close unless physically blocked or forced apart. That is rather different to what happens if a passenger boards during the auto close process. As I mentioned above, an approaching passenger has no way of knowing which process is happening. They look and sound exactly the same. Perhaps different hustle alarms would help.

I think we are both saying the same thing. When I'm sober and it's not Christmas remind me and I'll find the relevant pages in the driver's handbook to check

 

[Horizon22]

You don't need to put your fingers in the doors in the mistaken belief they will open, it's a Darwin move.

These train runs frequently every few minutes if miss on, hold back and wait for next one which will be a long shortly.

If I recall this was one of the last trains of the day.

There was a reportedly busy platform (but Platform 3, not the more notorious Platform 4 gap) which required intervention from platform staff to free the passenger, which seemingly reduced the impact of the issue.

Obviously investigation would go into how long the doors were open, the saloon CCTV, the platform-train interface corridor and the actions of the platform staff, driver and passengers and how/why the 345 was presumably able to achieve interlock.

At a minimum if the platform was busy enough that someone was able to stick their hand in a door without being sufficiently noticed and dispatch process continued, that is a question to be asked.

 

[357]

Obviously investigation would go into how long the doors were open, the saloon CCTV, the platform-train interface corridor and the actions of the platform staff, driver and passengers and how/why the 345 was presumably able to achieve interlock.

I'd hope this has all been downloaded already.

I was involved in an incident with a 345 in 2018 that despite being reported within minutes wasn't investigated sufficiently to get train CCTV or drivers reports before it was too late/forgotten.

 

[Horizon22]

I'd hope this has all been downloaded already.

I was involved in an incident with a 345 in 2018 that despite being reported within minutes wasn't investigated sufficiently to get train CCTV or drivers reports before it was too late/forgotten.

Yes it would have been immediately post-incident (within 24h). Driver managers have an on-call system for a reason to ensure 24h coverage. The RAIB would obviously look into all of it.

 

[357]

Yes it would have been immediately post-incident (within 24h). Driver managers have an on-call system for a reason to ensure 24h coverage. The RAIB would obviously look into all of it.

Didn't happen in my case, I ended up in a disciplinary hearing before it transpired they didn't even download the train

 

[NSEWonderer]

Didn't happen in my case, I ended up in a disciplinary hearing before it transpired they didn't even download the train

Not surprised with that

I remember seeing a video of the below umbrella on the Line, that a passenger had tried to use to hold the doors, train had gained interlock even with the thick part of it in the door and subsequently departed. It would be quite hard I'd assume to see an umbrella handle sticking out on the small cctv monitors.

 

[Dstock7080]

As far as I am aware there has never been a trap and drag incident with an S stock, I would be surprised to be prover wrong.

A driver of an S7 was dismissed prior to Covid by keeping a finger on the sensitive edge reset while the train was departing Sloane Square westbound, causing passenger to be dragged along platform and was only saved after they became detached from their coat which remained in the door.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Are we also sure the 345s have sensitive edge technology just out of interest? GA 720s do but I'm aware of the 710s apparently not having so, wasn't this also highlighted in a report of s trap and drag with a London Overground 710?

Video Linked Below Shows A 720s Sensitive Door Being tested of which it shows a good level of detection tolerance:
720 Sensitive Edge

 

[Dstock7080]

Are we also sure the 345s have sensitive edge technology just out of interest?

They certainly have obstacle detection which is mentioned above in other posts, ie. doors reopening when encountering obstruction, which is separate from sensitive edge detection.

 

[NSEWonderer]

They certainly have obstacle detection which is mentioned above in other posts, ie. doors reopening when encountering obstruction, which is separate from sensitive edge detection.

Yeah that was the only detection I was aware of on the units. Outside of that detection(which is a singular laser beam detection on the bottom of the inside door), if the force acting on the door is resisting enough then it will stop, slightly open and try again. 701s and 720s I do know have sensitive edge and the prior hasn't from what I've know had much trap and drag incidents on GA Land.

 

[Nym]

Yeah… obstacle detection and sensitive edge are not one of the same thing.

There’s many ways to detect an obstruction in a door and it’s not always all of them that’s implemented

 

[Horizon22]

Not surprised with that

I remember seeing a video of the below umbrella on the Line, that a passenger had tried to use to hold the doors, train had gained interlock even with the thick part of it in the door and subsequently departed. It would be quite hard I'd assume to see an umbrella handle sticking out on the small cctv monitors.View attachment 171631

To me that looks like the umbrella fabric only which probably goes very thin under pressure. Much like backpack straps which can end up caught.

 

[PG]

Are we also sure the 345s have sensitive edge technology just out of interest? GA 720s do but I'm aware of the 710s apparently not having so, wasn't this also highlighted in a report of s trap and drag with a London Overground 710?

It does indeed seem an odd decision for sensitive edges to have been not included in the 710s specification, as mentioned in the RAIB safety digest earlier this year into a trap and drag at Enfield town.

The class 710 train involved in this accident was not fitted with door technology such as sensitive door edges, which uses a detection system in the door seals which may detect smaller obstructions. They were also not fitted with anti-drag systems which use a special type of door seal and a monitoring system which can detect that a passenger has been trapped in the doors and is being dragged. Although these are being used by some train operators, including those operating other classes of Aventra trains, the class 710 trains were not specified to include such systems when brought into service in May 2019.

 

[TUC]

The person must have put their hand in a closing door therefore that person is at fault. It is time people took responsibility for their own safety

What if it had been a disabled person taking slightly longer to board, and the doors started to close whilst they were in the early stage of entering? Is that their own fault?

 

[Business Bob]

Are we also sure the 345s have sensitive edge technology just out of interest? GA 720s do but I'm aware of the 710s apparently not having so, wasn't this also highlighted in a report of s trap and drag with a London Overground 710?

Yerp no sensitive door tech on 710s. They will still get interlock and wont detect anything trapped 30mm or less. The DOO cameras also don't offer the best angle.

 

[Nym]

What if it had been a disabled person taking slightly longer to board, and the doors started to close whilst they were in the early stage of entering? Is that their own fault?

Then the obstacle beam should have picked it up if it was an auto-close. And if it was on a manual close, then the PTI wasn’t clear and the door closure should not have been instantiated under the rule book?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Yerp no sensitive door tech on 710s. They will still get interlock and wont detect anything trapped 30mm or less. The DOO cameras also don't offer the best angle.

Agreed, I assume they didn't want a repeat of the early victoria line issues, however by then the technology had matured. GA haven't much issues with theirs. The doo monitors agree from what ive seen aren't always of the best quality to see smaller objects etc. I think its again the GA trains with camera monitors than can zoom in.

 

[Nym]

Victoria Line now also has "Intelligent" sensitive edge where it can tell which direction the object is being pulled in, and then triggers a partial re-open.

 

[D365]

Victoria Line now also has "Intelligent" sensitive edge where it can tell which direction the object is being pulled in, and then triggers a partial re-open.

Indeed; I recently had an interesting discussion about how this came about…

 

[Falcon1200]

What if it had been a disabled person taking slightly longer to board, and the doors started to close whilst they were in the early stage of entering?

The person was on the platform and presumably did not remove their hand, or inserted it, while the alarm was sounding and the doors were actually closing - Believing that they would be detected and the doors would re-open?

 

[Juliet Barvo]

The Driver should have been allowed enough time to pause for a second or two to relax and not hurry. They should also not be so conditioned, have work so repetitive, that the dispatch procedure becomes autonomous. I wonder if RAIB's report will blame the management.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The Driver should have been allowed enough time to pause for a second or two to relax and not hurry. They should also not be so conditioned, have work so repetitive, that the dispatch procedure becomes autonomous. I wonder if RAIB's report will blame the management.

Where did you get the impression for any of this?

 

[357]

The Driver should have been allowed enough time to pause for a second or two to relax and not hurry. They should also not be so conditioned, have work so repetitive, that the dispatch procedure becomes autonomous. I wonder if RAIB's report will blame the management.

Are you a driver or working in the industry at any operational level?

 

[philthetube]

Not surprised with that

I remember seeing a video of the below umbrella on the Line, that a passenger had tried to use to hold the doors, train had gained interlock even with the thick part of it in the door and subsequently departed. It would be quite hard I'd assume to see an umbrella handle sticking out on the small cctv monitors.View attachment 171631

as posted above material trapped and not being dragging anything so no issue.

A driver of an S7 was dismissed prior to Covid by keeping a finger on the sensitive edge reset while the train was departing Sloane Square westbound, causing passenger to be dragged along platform and was only saved after they became detached from their coat which remained in the door.

An idiot!

However this demonstrates that the equipment was working.

 

[Juliet Barvo]

Are you a driver or working in the industry at any operational level?

Yes I have been a driver for MTR Elizabeth Line and worked their Metro service. I'm a mainline driver now.

That's how I know that dispatching the 345 can become routine and autonomous, which is something we all need to guard against.

If we allow a culture to develop where we are not allowed to ask questions about whether something was done safely or whether there are areas that we could improve, then we are headed towards somewhere very dangerous.