Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Merle Haggard]

Took 701039 yesterday evening, two observations:

- A rubber seal on the door frame was already unpeeling and tangled. Only seemed to be attached with a simple adhesive.
- The position of the tap in the toilets is way too far forward relative to the sink - it's very hard to wash your hands without water dripping on the floor, and consequently the floor of the toilet was quite wet and unpleasant. Seems like a really daft design choice.

The 730/0 have the same design - floor perpetually wet.
Obviously no-one at Derby bothered to try out it out in practice, just designed it thoughtlessly then churned out 100s of coaches all with the same problem.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 730/0 have the same design - floor perpetually wet.
Obviously no-one at Derby bothered to try out it out in practice, just designed it thoughtlessly then churned out 100s of coaches all with the same problem.

IETs the same, and the issue of the taps in the Class 450 toilets spraying water all over the place has only quite recently been addressed.

 

[vuzzeho]

Obviously no-one at Derby bothered to try out it out in practice, just designed it thoughtlessly then churned out 100s of coaches all with the same problem.

Not really how it works.

 

[DMckduck]

Took 701039 yesterday evening, two observations:

- A rubber seal on the door frame was already unpeeling and tangled. Only seemed to be attached with a simple adhesive.
- The position of the tap in the toilets is way too far forward relative to the sink - it's very hard to wash your hands without water dripping on the floor, and consequently the floor of the toilet was quite wet and unpleasant. Seems like a really daft design choice.

Does it still cover the seat in toilet water when you flush aswell? Or has that been sorted out.

Wonder how well these trains will age considering it was the budget option all across the board.

 

[fgwrich]

IETs the same, and the issue of the taps in the Class 450 toilets spraying water all over the place has only quite recently been addressed.

Completely off topic here but that IET / 385 design is just ridiculous, particularly in the Universal loo where it starts to run into the bin. Though none are as bad as the useless since new design in the 165/166s, where the water just dribbles out of the tap, down the wall, onto the smooth counter and straight onto the floor.

As for flushing toilets covering the seat, I think that may be a general design issue with those toilets than something specific to the 701s - I’ve had to complain to both ScotRail and GWR in the past after receiving a free toilet soaking in their 158s.

 

[43096]

Not really how it works.

No. They get some fancy designer in and you get something that looks good to them, but is completely impractical.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

IETs the same, and the issue of the taps in the Class 450 toilets spraying water all over the place has only quite recently been addressed.

It has? Oh fantastic. That’s long plagued me.

 

[Goldfish62]

It has? Oh fantastic. That’s long plagued me.

Yes, just a gentle flow now rather than a spray!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, just a gentle flow now rather than a spray!

Christmas has come early

 

[Merle Haggard]

IETs the same, and the issue of the taps in the Class 450 toilets spraying water all over the place has only quite recently been addressed.

Is the hand-drier in a 450 the same as a 350? In the latter, you have to keep your hands absolutely still in a particular spot under the beam otherwise it stops. The only way you'll actually dry your hands in a hot air stream is by rubbing them together...

 

[Bikeman78]

The 730/0 have the same design - floor perpetually wet.
Obviously no-one at Derby bothered to try out it out in practice, just designed it thoughtlessly then churned out 100s of coaches all with the same problem.

Same with most modern toilet taps. I remember when you could see the tap and put your hands underneath it. Now it's a case of wave your hands around and hope for the best. A simple button is much easier.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Same with most modern toilet taps. I remember when you could see the tap and put your hands underneath it. Now it's a case of wave your hands around and hope for the best. A simple button is much easier.

There's an absolutely certain way to set off those taps.
I usually carry a small bag and the only place to put it down (aprt from the floor) is on the ledge that includes the sink. Seems like however carefully I put it down, farthest away from the tap, it still turns the tap on and wets it.
As you correctly say, getting your hands wet is much harder.

 

[Bikeman78]

There's an absolutely certain way to set off those taps.
I usually carry a small bag and the only place to put it down (aprt from the floor) is on the ledge that includes the sink. Seems like however carefully I put it down, farthest away from the tap, it still turns the tap on and wets it.
As you correctly say, getting your hands wet is much harder.

I just don't understand why they are designed as they are. I used to be able to see the whole sink, and the tap. What is inside the column above the sink on modern trains? Do people not test things before they reach the production stage?

 

[800001]

It has? Oh fantastic. That’s long plagued me.

Lumo and LNER certainly have modified or started the modification on the space saver toilets hand wash water jets, angle of water and better signage I believe.

 

[D365]

Not really how it works.

No. They get some fancy designer in and you get something that looks good to them, but is completely impractical.

Not quite. The design engineer only follows the requirements and specifications that have been passed down to them.

 

[Invincible]

Took 701039 yesterday evening, two observations:

- A rubber seal on the door frame was already unpeeling and tangled. Only seemed to be attached with a simple adhesive.
- The position of the tap in the toilets is way too far forward relative to the sink - it's very hard to wash your hands without water dripping on the floor, and consequently the floor of the toilet was quite wet and unpleasant. Seems like a really daft design choice.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/our-trains/~/media/A00DDF201E554178BC937EC1E83FD4D6.ashx

From the SWR website a photo, does look like a small basin and the tap nozzles are to high.

 

[DMckduck]

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/our-trains/~/media/A00DDF201E554178BC937EC1E83FD4D6.ashx

From the SWR website a photo, does look like a small basin and the tap nozzles are to high.

Think they just decided at the design phase to turn it into a full on wet room, not thinking of passengers with accesibility requirements now being covered with the water instead of the floor.

The basin is tiny though.

 

[43096]

Not quite. The design engineer only follows the requirements and specifications that have been passed down to them.

Given the number of utterly useless tap/sink designs, not just on the railway, I very much doubt that specification is tight enough. They certainly don’t specify practical usability!

 

[Carlisle]

Looks rather similar to the arrangement on Voyagers apart from a smaller actual bowl.

 

[vuzzeho]

No. They get some fancy designer in and you get something that looks good to them, but is completely impractical.

As an industrial designer that's very insulting. A very large part of ID is continual testing with users, researching, and developing ergonomics. We'll always push for the best and whether or not the company wants to spend on that or pick a cheaper, less ideal option is not up to us. Alongside that, teams of engineers and manufacturers push for the cheapest or least complicated option, even if it isn't the best for the user. Industrial design isn't about making a pretty looking toilet, it's about making things best for users, and that's often an uphill battle with cost.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As an industrial designer that's very insulting. A very large part of ID is continual testing with users, researching, and developing ergonomics. We'll always push for the best and whether or not the company wants to spend on that or pick a cheaper, less ideal option is not up to us. Alongside that, teams of engineers and manufacturers push for the cheapest or least complicated option, even if it isn't the best for the user. Industrial design isn't about making a pretty looking toilet, it's about making things best for users, and that's often an uphill battle with cost.

Some people just love to jump to taking offence on here, don’t they? The point is, whether someone specified a cheap toilet or an expensive one, it needs to be functional, and if it isn’t, that’s that.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Some people just love to jump to taking offence on here, don’t they? The point is, whether someone specified a cheap toilet or an expensive one, it needs to be functional, and if it isn’t, that’s that.

Dadly - it seems to me that there is an argument that a lot of money could be saved by just not bothering to design somethings if someone is only going to choose the cheapest option anyway.

On a more practical note I have learnt to avoid washing my hands. A few experiences of getting the soap on my hands only to discover no water taught me a lesson. Wet hands and a dozey hand drier is a bit of a nuisance but soapy hands is not nice.

I now (courtesy of Covid) keep a small bottle of hand sanitiser with me which works AFTER I have finished touching the toilet door after exit !.

 

[vuzzeho]

just not bothering to design somethings if someone is only going to choose the cheapest option anyway.

Someone also designs that...

 

[PG]

it seems to me that there is an argument that a lot of money could be saved by just not bothering to design somethings if someone is only going to choose the cheapest option anyway.

The Northern seat selection trial comes to mind: 3 designs, passengers prefer one and.... they are ignored in favour of the cheapest seat. As you say - Why bother?!!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Only two this morning, units 017 and 043, the latter now having carried paying passengers on 100 different dates (the third unit to reach that landmark)

701039 ran ECS to take up a diagram but then returned to depot and was replaced with 017

 

[Goldfish62]

Only two this morning, units 017 and 043, the latter now having carried paying passengers on 100 different dates (the third unit to reach that landmark)

701039 ran ECS to take up a diagram but then returned to depot and was replaced with 017

How many should be diagrammed on Saturdays, bearing in mind it's a Saturday service until the first full week of January?

 

[norbitonflyer]

How many should be diagrammed on Saturdays, bearing in mind it's a Saturday service until the first full week of January?

Two - but neither of the Saturday diagrams are being run by 701s

 

[TEW]

It is only two diagrams booked again today.

 

[Goldfish62]

Two - but neither of the Saturday diagrams are being run by 701s

Given that there are no relevant formation changes on Journeycheck they were obviously never planned to be.

Things won't be back to normal until the first full week of January.

 

[Ian Hardy]

701031 is on this service today. 08:03 Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y17214/2024-12-28/detailed#allox_id=0

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2024 ==

701043 is on the 0832 Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y17202/2024-12-28/detailed#allox_id=0

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2024 ==

701017 is on the 0942 Waterloo to Shepperton https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y16368/2024-12-28/detailed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2024 ==

Monday 30th December and 701031 is on the 08:03 Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside service: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q77768/2024-12-30/detailed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Dec 2024 ==

Also on 30/12/2024 701036 is on the 15:42 Waterloo to Shepperton service https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Q78110/2024-12-30/detailed