Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[Envoy]

Sunday 22 December and not one Class 756 out in service today - absolutely appalling. Why?

 

[John R]

Sunday 22 December and not one Class 756 out in service today - absolutely appalling. Why?

I guess that depends whether there are any cancellations (or short forms) on the Valley Lines due to lack of rolling stock. If not then I am not sure why you would get worked up about it.

 

[Envoy]

I guess that depends whether there are any cancellations (or short forms) on the Valley Lines due to lack of rolling stock. If not then I am not sure why you would get worked up about it.

Loads of the new 756’s have been sitting around in sidings since summer 2023. It is now 5 weeks since they first entered service with usually 2 out per day. So, in 5 weeks no progress has been made in getting the rest of these trains into service. That means that 150’s usually working as 2 cars are serving the Aberdare and Merthyr routes at half hourly intervals which often means overcrowding.

 

[AdamWW]

Sunday 22 December and not one Class 756 out in service today - absolutely appalling. Why?

I seem to recall when the 231s were introduced they initially stayed at home on Sundays.

 

[John R]

Loads of the new 756’s have been sitting around in sidings since summer 2023. It is now 5 weeks since they first entered service with usually 2 out per day. So, in 5 weeks no progress has been made in getting the rest of these trains into service.

You don’t know that no progress has been made. There are daily non-passenger workings of the stock between Cardiff and Aberdare. Presumably that is progress of some sort, even if it hasn’t translated into more passenger workings just yet.

 

[craigybagel]

I seem to recall when the 231s were introduced they initially stayed at home on Sundays.

I think pretty much every new fleet at every TOC nationwide when it's been in the early days of introduction has been weekday only at first.

 

[AdamWW]

You don’t know that no progress has been made. There are daily non-passenger workings of the stock between Cardiff and Aberdare. Presumably that is progress of some sort, even if it hasn’t translated into more passenger workings just yet.

It's true we don't know if there's been any progress.

And that's the problem with TfWs policy of a lack of transparency and generally limiting their announcements to things that are good PR.

Easy enough to assume incompetence in the absence of information to the contrary.

 

[Tom125]

It's true we don't know if there's been any progress.

And that's the problem with TfWs policy of a lack of transparency and generally limiting their announcements to things that are good PR.

Easy enough to assume incompetence in the absence of information to the contrary.

I think they’ve also been stung on previous PR announcements which have turned out to be untrue/ not deliverable. All these things together completely undermine confidence.

The reliability of the railway in Wales under TfW has also been appalling. You only have to look at the Ebbw Vale to Newport service as an example- it’s cancelled frequently. How can you expect to build a ridership when people can’t rely on a service actually turning up.

TfW really need to pick up on the delivery aspect of promises next year because if you ask people they say things like “the railway is worse than ever”.

 

[AdamWW]

I think they’ve also been stung on previous PR announcements which have turned out to be untrue/ not deliverable. All these things together completely undermine confidence.

When you they just go silent when they fail to do what they said they would, absolutely.

In the absence of an explanation the obvious conclusion is that it's just incompetence - which may not be the case.

The reliability of the railway in Wales under TfW has also been appalling. You only have to look at the Ebbw Vale to Newport service as an example- it’s cancelled frequently. How can you expect to build a ridership when people can’t rely on a service actually turning up.

Quite. I generally try to advocate the use of public transport but there is no way that I could suggest anyone use local services round Cardiff for a journey where they need to get somewhere at a particular time.

Given the lack of explanation, apology, or indication that they are trying to improve things the impression TfW gives me is that they think the current situation is acceptable.

Each incident of disruption is treated in isolation with no apparent recognition that it's part of a pattern. If you say day after day that more trains than usual need repairs it just sounds ridiculous. It is normal now.

 

[MikePJ]

I seem to recall when the 231s were introduced they initially stayed at home on Sundays.

I very much suspect that the Stadler support engineers don't work Sundays.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sunday 22 December and not one Class 756 out in service today - absolutely appalling. Why?

Rubbish and ridiculous.

 

[chrisjo]

Rubbish and ridiculous.

It's not clear whether your comment applies to the post you've replied to, or to the situation it describes?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's not clear whether your comment applies to the post you've replied to, or to the situation it describes?

Apologies. I agree with the OP. The fact we’re a week away from January 2025 and all TAM services are 150s is laughable.

 

[Topological]

I very much suspect that the Stadler support engineers don't work Sundays.

That would seem a very good reason.

Does not really justify a slow rollout on weekdays though. That is the more disappointing thing in terms of visible progress.

 

[chrisjo]

Where on the current Merthyr-Aberdare and Aberdare-Merthyr diagrams does the transition between diesel and electric occur?

 

[Peter Sarf]

That would seem a very good reason.

Does not really justify a slow rollout on weekdays though. That is the more disappointing thing in terms of visible progress.

I can imagine that Stadler have three roving engineers available weekdays so if they are travelling with the 756 then that limits operations to three 756s (or two if being a bit cutious about sick leave). Once an individual 756 has really done a lot of fault free miles and gained everyones trust then I can imagine a roving engineer can move on to babysitting a fourth 756 and so on. So are operations perhaps still building up confidence in each individual 756 ?.

 

[John R]

Where on the current Merthyr-Aberdare and Aberdare-Merthyr diagrams does the transition between diesel and electric occur?

All electric, either directly from the wires or from battery during the sections where there are no overhead wires or they are permanently earthed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2024 ==

I can imagine that Stadler have three roving engineers available weekdays so if they are travelling with the 756 then that limits operations to three 756s (or two if being a bit cutious about sick leave). Once an individual 756 has really done a lot of fault free miles and gained everyones trust then I can imagine a roving engineer can move on to babysitting a fourth 756 and so on. So are operations perhaps still building up confidence in each individual 756 ?.

That’s exactly the scenario I would expect. And if one engineer is not at work for any reason then the three drops to two.

I’d much rather a “gently does it approach” than the situation there seems to have been in Liverpool where the 777s were failing left right and centre in the early days.

 

[Envoy]

I thought that the 756’s had been doing test runs on the electrified mainline between CDF & STJ and even Swindon. Surely, the Stadler engineers would have been on these test runs to sort out any issues? That being so, I would have thought they could have started to enter passenger service without the need for Stadler engineers to be in attendance?

So, we begin another week with again only two in service today (Monday 23 December). Perhaps the Swiss don’t have much confidence in their trains?

 

[43096]

I thought that the 756’s had been doing test runs on the electrified mainline between CDF & STJ and even Swindon. Surely, the Stadler engineers would have been on these test runs to sort out any issues? That being so, I would have thought they could have started to enter passenger service without the need for Stadler engineers to be in attendance?

So, we begin another week with again only two in service today (Monday 23 December). Perhaps the Swiss don’t have much confidence in their trains?

In the same way that “battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy”, new tra8ns never survive first contact with the general public! Hence why engineers are needed.

 

[AdamWW]

I thought that the 756’s had been doing test runs on the electrified mainline between CDF & STJ and even Swindon. Surely, the Stadler engineers would have been on these test runs to sort out any issues? That being so, I would have thought they could have started to enter passenger service without the need for Stadler engineers to be in attendance?

Possible not quite the same as going up and down the Valleys through permanently earthed sections and on and off the wires?

 

[chrisjo]

All electric, either directly from the wires or from battery during the sections where there are no overhead wires or they are permanently earthed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2024 ==

Thanks. I phrased my question very poorly (and I believe that the diesel generators were definitely running when I rode 756111 from CDF to NNP on the 28th of November). I'll try again.

Where on the current Merthyr-Aberdare and Aberdare-Merthyr diagrams are the pantographs extended and retracted?

 

[AdamWW]

Thanks. I phrased my question very poorly (and I believe that the diesel generators were definitely running when I rode 756111 from CDF to NNP on the 28th of November).

Interesting, given that they are to be replaced by trains with no diesel power.

I wasn't aware of them being on diesel away from the wires on my brief trip on one on the first day.

It really seems quite strange seeing (or rather hearing) an electric train with no wires or third rail in sight.

 

[StripeyNick]

I thought that the 756’s had been doing test runs on the electrified mainline between CDF & STJ and even Swindon. Surely, the Stadler engineers would have been on these test runs to sort out any issues? That being so, I would have thought they could have started to enter passenger service without the need for Stadler engineers to be in attendance?

So, we begin another week with again only two in service today (Monday 23 December). Perhaps the Swiss don’t have much confidence in their trains?

Given how they've been sat around since finishing their mileage accumulation runs it wouldn't surprise me that they'd want an engineer on hand in case of any niggles that may have appeared

 

[Topological]

So now the question is how many runs a unit has to do with engineers on board before that unit can go out on its own and another unit can be out with an engineer.

(That is assuming that it is engineer numbers limiting rollout)

 

[Envoy]

Where on the current Merthyr-Aberdare and Aberdare-Merthyr diagrams does the transition between diesel and electric occur?

They don’t use diesel at all on this route. When off overhead wire, they use electricity stored in the battery - although they do have a diesel for emergency use only.

If you sit at either end near the cab, you can just about hear the sound of the electric motor powering the bogey. If you sit near the middle power pack, you will not hear an engine but you will hear a diesel engine on a Class 231 FLIRT.

Wires exist from just north of Cathays station to where the train passes under the M4. Wires also exist on the City Line in west Cardiff to a point midway (roughly) between Waungron Park & Ninian Park stations. So, it is at those points where the pantograph will raise and lower automatically. Other places exist in the valleys where this happens.

 

[Tom125]

I’d flip the narrative having lived and worked in Switzerland. I’d say the Stadler engineers are ensuring the customer is happy with the operation and quality of the build so that when in service the trains offer the quality and standard a passenger expects!

Once these are all in service I’m sure the passenger/customer will love them.

 

[AdamWW]

I’d flip the narrative having lived and worked in Switzerland. I’d say the Stadler engineers are ensuring the customer is happy with the operation and quality of the build so that when in service the trains offer the quality and standard a passenger expects!

Once these are all in service I’m sure the passenger/customer will love them.

From what I've seen people have been very happy with the 231s.

 

[CapitalStar378]

From what I've seen people have been very happy with the 231s.

They’re lovely trains but have Stadler/TfW never heard of light diffusers? They make the 800s seem atmospheric. See Crossrail class 345s for how to light the interior of a train carriage.

 

[Bikeman78]

I can imagine that Stadler have three roving engineers available weekdays so if they are travelling with the 756 then that limits operations to three 756s (or two if being a bit cutious about sick leave). Once an individual 756 has really done a lot of fault free miles and gained everyones trust then I can imagine a roving engineer can move on to babysitting a fourth 756 and so on. So are operations perhaps still building up confidence in each individual 756 ?.

By my count, nine different units have carried passengers. I've travelled on eight of them. They have all worked fine when I have been on them. But I'm inclined to agree with your point in general.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I’d flip the narrative having lived and worked in Switzerland. I’d say the Stadler engineers are ensuring the customer is happy with the operation and quality of the build so that when in service the trains offer the quality and standard a passenger expects!

Once these are all in service I’m sure the passenger/customer will love them.

Yes. My feeling is the Swiss don't rush into risky promises and i prefer that approach.

Yes the 231s have settled in AND on Greater Anglia I get the impression the Stadler 345s and 355s 745s and 755s are not generating bad comments there either.

Worth waiting for is the phrase that springs to mind.

EDITed to correct the classes above.