Penalty fare notice

[Samsilva77]

Hi everyone

I would be grateful if somebody could help us appeal a PCN issued to my wife and daughter last Sunday. They intended to undertake a journey from Chelmsford to London. However, there was a replacement bus service from Chelmsford, so my wife and daughter drove and took the service from Shenfield, a new section for them. They then took the London underground and tapped the same cards. On the return journey, they took an overhead from London Liverpool Street using the same card, which opened the barriers, but took the train to Chelmsford by mistake. However, on reaching Chelmsford, they touched the same cards, and the barriers didn't open; they were given a fixed penalty notice of £100 each and asked to pay a return journey fare of £8.20 each.

The credit card they used to tap has also deducted £16.50 each for the journey.

I know the rules would indicate they didn't have a valid ticket, but the railway procedures and the hassle of weekend replacement confused them into taking an unfamiliar route. The penalty fair notice is so embarrassing, especially for my daughter, who is worried about the implications at her age. She went to London for a medical interview course, and her mum accompanied her, so it was a very stressful day for them. They intended to pay the fair but were confused by the procedures in place.

 

[thedbdiboy]

There's a three stage appeals process. It's really only at the third stage that mitigating circumstances might get considered so the best advice is to follow the process through. Also don't hang around before appealing; the Penalty is halved if paid within 21 days and the clock stops on appeal, so even if you are unsuccessful you certainly don't want to lose the early payment discount.

 

[Samsilva77]

Thanks thedbdiboy!

In the initial appeal, do we just narrate the above and wait for them to reject, or is it more formal like the parking fine appeals citing specific reasons?

 

[duffield]

Hi everyone

I would be grateful if somebody could help us appeal a PCN issued to my wife and daughter last Sunday. They intended to undertake a journey from Chelmsford to London. However, there was a replacement bus service from Chelmsford, so my wife and daughter drove and took the service from Shenfield, a new section for them. They then took the London underground and tapped the same cards. On the return journey, they took an overhead from London Liverpool Street using the same card, which opened the barriers, but took the train to Chelmsford by mistake. However, on reaching Chelmsford, they touched the same cards, and the barriers didn't open; they were given a fixed penalty notice of £100 each and asked to pay a return journey fare of £8.20 each.

The credit card they used to tap has also deducted £16.50 each for the journey.

I know the rules would indicate they didn't have a valid ticket, but the railway procedures and the hassle of weekend replacement confused them into taking an unfamiliar route. The penalty fair notice is so embarrassing, especially for my daughter, who is worried about the implications at her age. She went to London for a medical interview course, and her mum accompanied her, so it was a very stressful day for them. They intended to pay the fair but were confused by the procedures in place.

Just on this specific point:
"The penalty fair notice is so embarrassing, especially for my daughter, who is worried about the implications at her age."

Penalty fares themselves have zero implications in that they are neither a criminal or civil legal matter, so they will not show up on any check and do not need to be disclosed in any circumstances. They are intended for "honest mistakes" and do not imply any deliberate fare evasion or fraud.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone

I would be grateful if somebody could help us appeal a PCN issued to my wife and daughter last Sunday. They intended to undertake a journey from Chelmsford to London. However, there was a replacement bus service from Chelmsford, so my wife and daughter drove and took the service from Shenfield, a new section for them. They then took the London underground and tapped the same cards. On the return journey, they took an overhead from London Liverpool Street using the same card, which opened the barriers, but took the train to Chelmsford by mistake. However, on reaching Chelmsford, they touched the same cards, and the barriers didn't open; they were given a fixed penalty notice of £100 each and asked to pay a return journey fare of £8.20 each.

The credit card they used to tap has also deducted £16.50 each for the journey.

I know the rules would indicate they didn't have a valid ticket, but the railway procedures and the hassle of weekend replacement confused them into taking an unfamiliar route. The penalty fair notice is so embarrassing, especially for my daughter, who is worried about the implications at her age. She went to London for a medical interview course, and her mum accompanied her, so it was a very stressful day for them. They intended to pay the fair but were confused by the procedures in place.

I see it's been mentioned, but there will not be any implications from a Penalty Fare (apart from to your bank balance). Having said that if you get several over time it's more likely that they may not give one next time but report you for investigation on the basis that you have not 'learned the lesson to get a correct ticket'. Your name is in their system after all.

The problem you will have is that an Appeal to be successful is not about whether it was fair or not to get issued with one, it needs to be an Appeal based on the fact that the Penalty Fare (PF) was improperly or incorrectly issued, as I understand it, under the terms of the penalty fare regulations / legislation. Is there any reason why they should NOT have been issued with a PF beyond 'it seems a bit harsh to penalise them in this way' type of reason? maybe experts here can suggest a line of argument you can use in an Appeal. That is the key to the Appeal being successful I suspect. This can include wrongly completed paperwork by the railway so upload aonymised copies of the PFs so people here can check them for you to see if the staff made a mistake on the paperwork.

having said that there can be nothing lost be submitting an Appeal.

It might be worth you getting the draft wording of your Appeal checked here before you submit it.

Do not miss any deadlines.

If you are worried about missing the prompt payment discount, pay the PF and Appeal, you would be refunded if the Appeal was upheld.

Keep copies of everything.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks thedbdiboy!

In the initial appeal, do we just narrate the above and wait for them to reject, or is it more formal like the parking fine appeals citing specific reasons?

You should cite specific reasons - but "I made a mistake because I was confused" is unlikely to be a compelling ground in and of itself and I would not expect an appeal to succeed on this basis.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Did the train to Chelmsford call at Shenfield? If not, how did they get back to Shenfield to retrieve the car that was parked there?

 

[JBuchananGB]

This is slightly difficult to understand. RRB between Chelmsford & somewhere on Sunday 15 December. The greater Anglia web site does not list any service alteration on that date affecting trains from Chelmsford to London. Also Real Time Trains shows a normal service operated from Chelmsford to London. The London Underground does not serve Shenfield, but Contactless payment is valid for travel on both Elizabeth Line and Greater Anglia.
Having tapped in somewhere in London for the return journey, they caught a train through to Chelmsford, presumably by mistake as the car was at Shenfield. From looking at Real Time Trains it is hard to find a train from Liverpool Street to Chelmsford on a Sunday which does not call at Shenfield. Mysteriously when RRBs had been running in the morning, the trains were now running through. The limit of Contactless is Shenfield, so the error by overtravelling has resulted in penalty fares being charged. It seems the PFs were correctly issued and should be paid promptly to benefit for the £50 reduction. But as others have said you could pursue the appeal process, just don't be too optimistic.

 

[davews]

There does seem to be some confusion. The same query was posted elsewhere where he stated that he caught the RRB from Inglestone to Shenfield but said nothing about a car. The '£8.20 return fare' he mentioned is the cost of a single from Shenfield to Chelmsford, which would seem what they should have been charged assuming they travel from LS to Shenfield on contactless.

 

[furlong]

Indeed this is full of contradictions and doesn't make sense yet.

Please post the complete details of your journeys that day - date, times of trains, when and where you touched etc. as best as you can reconstruct it.
Please post a complete copy of the "PCN" you were given (covering names / reference numbers etc.).
Please obtain a complete journey history for the contactless cards used (TfL website/app).

A Penalty Fare MUST be issued for the complete journey segment as understood by the inspector at the time - it is not an excess fare - so there might be a technical reason to uphold an appeal here if it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations.

 

[Samsilva77]

Hi Furlong

I'm sorry for any confusion. My wife and daughter journeyed, and I am only left to pay. Lol

The initial journey was meant to be from Chelmsford to London on 15th Dec; there was a replacement bus service from Chelmsford to Ingatestone, so my wife and daughter drove to Shenfield, tapped contactless at around 7 am and after finishing the interview, took the return journey to Chelmsford which according to them was because my wife forgot she had parked at Shenfield that morning. This was likely because we have always taken this route for the last 20 years, usually on weekdays when ticket counters are open, but everything went topsy turvy due to the replacement bus service. The train they took didn't have a stop at Shenfield, so they only realised when they reached Chelmsford and then decided to exit and drive the car in the evening with me as it was parked safely at a practice I work at.
I am attaching the redacted penalty fare notices for your review.

Thanks for all your replies.

 

[furlong]

And the other gaps in the story? The train surely DID stop at Shenfield for 2 minutes.

If she thought she was returning to Chelmsford, wouldn't she have known she couldn't use contactless?
If you can obtain the contactless travel record from TfL (app or website), the time of the touch in would help to prove which train she was on and that she couldn't have boarded at Shenfield as the Penalty Fare (you say incorrectly) asserts.

The key question is: Did the inspector know that she boarded the train in London? If so, then you can appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations that state:

9(1A) In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person
travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is—
(a) £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable,
...
(2) In paragraph (1), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in
question from the boarding station...
...
(3) In paragraph (2) and (2A), “the boarding station” means—
(a) the station at which the person boarded the train

 

[Samsilva77]

And the other gaps in the story? The train surely DID stop at Shenfield for 2 minutes.

If she thought she was returning to Chelmsford, wouldn't she have known she couldn't use contactless?
If you can obtain the contactless travel record from TfL (app or website), the time of the touch in would help to prove which train she was on and that she couldn't have boarded at Shenfield as the Penalty Fare (you say incorrectly) asserts.

The key question is: Did the inspector know that she boarded the train in London? If so, then you can appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations that state:

Hi Furlong

The TFL journey states 14:02 touched in at Liverpool street, no check out.
Also, there are 2 or 3 different train routes from London to Chelmsford depending on the final destination (Ipswich, Colchester etc). The said the train they boarded didn't stop at Shenfield. I either case, they boarded the train at London.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I can see that at 7am it there were no trains to London from Chelmsford.
It is probable that the return train was the 14.07 service to Ipswich, which called at Shenfield at 14.30 and arrived at Chelmsford at 14.40.

Realtime Trains | 1Y16 1408 London Liverpool Street to Ipswich | 15/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1Y16 1408 departure from London Liverpool Street to Ipswich on 15/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The nub of the matter is that the passenger had forgotten that they had parked at Shenfield! This has proved to be a potentially expensive mistake. It seems that at Chelmsford they told the inspector they had boarded at Shenfield. There could be grounds for appeal here. If they said they had boarded at Liverpool Street, and arrived at Chelmsford without a valid ticket, the Penalty Fare should have been based on the Anytime Single from Liverpool Street to Chelmsford, not the fare from Shenfield.

 

[furlong]

It seems that at Chelmsford they told the inspector they had boarded at Shenfield.

But they are also trying to tell us that the train didn't stop at Shenfield (which we don't believe) - so they couldn't have boarded there!

 

[Samsilva77]

We don't know why the inspector issued a penalty from Shenfield, they confirmed they boarded at Liverpool street and requested him not to issue narrating their tale and innocent mistake but he didn't listen.

 

[furlong]

Anyway, the train also seems to have stopped at Ingatestone, so in either event the PF is invalid. If the truth is they boarded in London and can prove that - it's invalid. If they said nothing, it has to be charged from the last station, Ingatestone. (In my view, if they lied and said they boarded at Shenfield, the PF would still be invalid but could be replaced by a prosecution, though the reality is nobody's probably up for the level of legal argument potentially involved in that.)

 

[Samsilva77]

Thanks guys, we know it was an honest mistake anyone can make like the inspector also did.
When we challenge, shall we mention our circumstances and then the fact it was issued incorrectly or just the latter?

 

[Haywain]

Anyway, the train also seems to have stopped at Ingatestone, so in either event the PF is invalid

Ingatestone is irrelevant as the PFN was issued at Chelmsford. Nobody has a right to a PFN being issued to a previous station.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Each passenger will need to submit their own appeal. There are experts here who may tell you exactly the best wording, but it seems as though something along the lines of "I travelled from Liverpool Street to Chelmsford. I understand that I did not have a valid ticket for the journey, but evidence that it started at Liverpool Street from my TfL Contactless record (attach a copy). I have been charged £16.50 by TfL for the incomplete journey. I consider that the Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly as it stipulated a journey from Shenfield to Chelmsford, whereas my actual journey was Liverpool Street to Shenfield."

 

[furlong]

Ingatestone is irrelevant as the PFN was issued at Chelmsford. Nobody has a right to a PFN being issued to a previous station.

In the event that the authorised collector does not know which station the passenger boarded, the previous stop of the train is used. I think that would be Ingatestone in this instance, so a PF issued FROM that station would have had the potential of being valid under the regulations.

 

[Samsilva77]

I have prepared a draft, can the experts go through this and suggest any changes? Also, would accepting a mistake make them cancel this PFN and issue another one?


Dear officer
I want to appeal against this penalty fare notice on the following grounds:

I intended to travel with my daughter from Chelmsford (my base location) to London on Sunday, 15th December. However, upon reaching the Chelmsford train station, we were informed that there was some maintenance work on the tracks and that we would have to have a replacement bus service available to the next station. As my daughter had an important appointment, we travelled to Shenfield and took the train directly from there to save time. Please take a look at the attached confirmation of our contactless payment.
We intended to make the same journey on our way back; we used the contactless at London Liverpool Street, hoping to get down at Shenfield. However, due to the travel chaos and a stressful morning, we forgot to get down at Shenfield as it was not our usual stop. It was too late when we finally realised this mistake, so we decided to exit at our usual base station at Chelmsford. Our contactless did not open the barriers at the exit, and we were met with enforcement officers. We tried to explain the issue by narrating the whole story, and that we were unaware that the contactless did not work at Chelmsford and that we had touched at Liverpool Street where the barriers opened, but the officer charged us a one-way travel fare from Shenfield and issued a penalty fare notice for boarding the train from Shenfield which we never did.
Hence, we believe the penalty fair notice was issued incorrectly as it stipulated a journey from Shenfield to Chelmsford, whereas we boarded the train at London Liverpool Street. We have included an incomplete journey record from my TFL contactless online record. This penalty fair notice has thus been issued in violation of The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) regulations 2022.

Considering our circumstances and the incorrect PFN, we request you to kindly cancel it.

Thanks a lot again!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2024 ==

The redacted PDF documents show the outbound journey from Shenfield and the incoming (incomplete) journey.

 

[MotCO]

My immediate reaction is that some of the sentences are a bit long - I ran out of breathe reading it! Maybe break into a few paragraphs.

The content seems fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

You haven't explained which of the Regulations you think have been broken here. Note that we don't "get down" from trains, we get off them, and that it's a Penalty *Fare* and not a "fair" (meaning light/reasonable/a fun event).

The regulations are the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. I assume it's 9 (2) you are hoping to make a technical appeal under: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/9

 

[Samsilva77]

OK, thanks, we will add the specific regulation and submit the same appeal twice.

 

[furlong]

Do quote from the regulations so they understand you are being serious - I gave you the relevant text but you can fill out the references to it (how it works as a ground for appeal - see other threads) - or you could just wait to see if they accept the simple version before putting the effort into presenting the legal argument for a second appeal.

If you hit a word limit on submission which some people report getting confused by, just give a brief summary within that word limit and then put the rest in an attachment which you can reference.

 

[Samsilva77]

Thanks

Can we check if we have to pay the penalty fare within 21 days or does the clock stop if we appeal?

Thanks

 

[Cuthbert]

Thanks

Can we check if we have to pay the penalty fare within 21 days or does the clock stop if we appeal?

Thanks

The clock stops till you get an answer. Then you can appeal again. and a third time which will be different with 2-3 probs three that look at the appeal.

 

[Samsilva77]

Thanks Knoodlepot

Just to be 100% sure, once we appeal within the 21 days, we have the option of paying the discounted £50 penalty fare till the final appeal is rejected?

 

[Cuthbert]

Thanks Knoodlepot

Just to be 100% sure, once we appeal within the 21 days, we have the option of paying the discounted £50 penalty fare till the final appeal is rejected?

FAQ - Penalty Services

www.penaltyservices.co.uk

"Penalty Fare Regulation say that the 21 days to pay the reduced amount takes no account of any time on appeal.

This means that if a person appeals against the issue of a Penalty Fare Notice, a “stop the clock” policy is observed on the 21 days to pay the lower penalty fare. The 21 days will restart when the appeal process is complete and the person’s appeal has either been finally disposed of or withdrawn."