Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[ScotRail158725]

376 also showing there on the tracker, which was involved in the incident at Hannover street

One of the regal tour buses inside lothian daf at loanhead yesterday. sorry i didnt get a fleet number. Its 243 just on a test run through roslin.

its not the DAF centre its next door which i believe is 911 recovery.

 

[Jonathan Lynch]

243 was in the daf compound on main street. 911 recovery is on nivensknowe road. 243 was in the compound parked in between 2 daf trucks. maybe helping with storage but thats where it was when i seen it. Only posted as ive never seen a non daf bus in there before never mind a lothian one.

its not the DAF centre its next door which i believe is 911 recovery.

 

[FP transport v]

its not the DAF centre its next door which i believe is 911 recovery.

I passed there yesterday and 243 is in fact in the DAF Lothian yard, however 376 is in 911 recovery. Managed to just get it in shot here:

 

[paul0762]

Wonder if anyone knows, why Lothian have never considered taking an adl e400 ev bus on demo or something similar. I feel the build quality on adl body’s have been slightly better than the new bzls.

 

[Resuwen]

They want to be exclusively Volvo, which is a pity because Sandy 500EVs would be ideal for Airlink and City

 

[LothianBusesPh]

They want to be exclusively Volvo, which is a pity because Sandy 500EVs would be ideal for Airlink and City

Which isn’t available for the UK market anyway? I don’t see the point.

 

[GusB]

Which isn’t available for the UK market anyway? I don’t see the point.

The Enviro 500EV isn't currently marketed in the UK, but that doesn't mean that it won't ever be built for the UK. There are some diesel E500s operating in the UK, after all, when they were largely intended for the far-east markets.

Just because a particular model isn't on the relevant section of the Alexander Dennis website, it doesn't mean that it will never be built for a different market. If Lothian (or any other operator) wanted to order E500EVs, it would probably happen as long as the order is big enough - money talks!

 

[Ghostbus]

The Enviro 500EV isn't currently marketed in the UK, but that doesn't mean that it won't ever be built for the UK. There are some diesel E500s operating in the UK, after all, when they were largely intended for the far-east markets.

Just because a particular model isn't on the relevant section of the Alexander Dennis website, it doesn't mean that it will never be built for a different market. If Lothian (or any other operator) wanted to order E500EVs, it would probably happen as long as the order is big enough - money talks!

That seems unlikely. The same logic for the diesel bus probably also applies for the EV.....

(Buses Magazine article in the Lothian E400XLB)

Establishing a secure connection ...

interest in tri-axle double-deckers became apparent around 20 years ago when various export models stopped off in Edinburgh on their way from Falkirk to the Far East. In January 1998, for instance, an Alexander ALX500-bodied Dennis Trident for the Long Win Bus Company in Hong Kong called at Lothian’s head office to allow managers to inspect it.

The reason the Lothian buses are Enviro400s rather than Enviro500s is down to the specification. The Enviro500 has a different body structure with integrated airconditioning, which affects fuel consumption, while the body for Lothian is essentially an extended Enviro400. The Enviro500 remains Alexander Dennis’s three-axle double-deck offering for international markets.

The Lothian examples are the first for a UK customer, with a longer front overhang than those built for the Far East, where ground clearance is more critical. Besides Alexander Dennis, it is being offered in the UK with MCV and Wright bodywork.

‘We first had thoughts about high-capacity buses late in 2017 and we first approached Volvo to build the chassis. Volvo offered us the B8L but we wanted to get the front end right – we wanted the same front module as on our fleet of B5s to give us conformity with our existing fleet, with the same cab and front overhang. Volvo said it could do it and this was designed in.

‘In March 2018 we spoke to the people at Alexander Dennis to find out if they could build the body we wanted. We were open and honest with them and they were happy to get on board with us. They could see that the project widens their portfolio alongside the Enviro500 and gives them a better competitive range.

Hall says the challenges extend beyond the initial appearance or capacity of these vehicles. ‘The damp Scottish weather and salt on the roads can be tough on our buses so we wanted to future-proof with aluminium panels that would be protected against the weather. Alexander Dennis developed a phosphate coating that is applied after external panels are cut and shaped. There is no cutting or trimming once these are fitted to the bus and these sealed panels act as a primer for painting.

In other words, where an existing product is less than ideal, it's better to listen to your customers needs and give them what they want, rather than something you designed for someone else. Or you might find yourself out of the game entirely.

 

[GusB]

In other words, where an existing product is less than ideal, it's better to listen to your customers needs and give them what they want, rather than something you designed for someone else. Or you might find yourself out of the game entirely.

I did say if Lothian wanted to have E500s in diesel form it could have had them. However, it preferred Volvo underpinnings and we ended up with the E400XLB. In other words, ADL listened to its customer's needs and gave them what they wanted.

 

[Siemens Trains]

What exactly is the purpose of the Global sticker? Advertising/sponsorship purposes?

I suppose it makes those 'in the trade' aware that Global are responsible for the advertising, whether for compliance, complaint or compliment purposes.

As a matter of interest, I've noticed a few Lothian buses this month still proclaiming that the Mormons Are Coming! I thought they'd been and gone at the Playhouse some time ago. It seems a bit wasteful and maybe even unprofessional to continue running out-of-date adverts.

Perhaps it's worth retaining the posters for general publicity if The Book Of Mormon is playing elsewhere. Or maybe it's coming back to Edinburgh in 2025.

 

[ScotRail158725]

As a matter of interest, I've noticed a few Lothian buses this month still proclaiming that the Mormons Are Coming! I thought they'd been and gone at the Playhouse some time ago. It seems a bit wasteful and maybe even unprofessional to continue running out-of-date adverts.

Perhaps it's worth retaining the posters for general publicity if The Book Of Mormon is playing elsewhere. Or maybe it's coming back to Edinburgh in 2025.

Ive seen plenty of buses with out of date adverts, its noticable when they done back from damage repairs but some in the normal fleet can be avoided for months, im not sure what the criteria is when they come in to change adverts or on what basis they do it but it must be random

 

[VioletEclipse]

It's looking increasingly less likely that all of 721-750 will enter service within the next two weeks. From what I've heard, there's also continuing issues with BZLs not lasting until the end of service on colder days. It might well not happen, but if the delivery of the BZLs continues at the current pace with the issues they have, then I wouldn't be all too surprised if Lothian looked into another batch of second hand buses as a short-term stopgap.

 

[N1]

It's looking increasingly less likely that all of 721-750 will enter service within the next two weeks. From what I've heard, there's also continuing issues with BZLs not lasting until the end of service on colder days. It might well not happen, but if the delivery of the BZLs continues at the current pace with the issues they have, then I wouldn't be all too surprised if Lothian looked into another batch of second hand buses as a short-term stopgap.

Is anyone aware of the heating specification on the BZLs? AFAIK Volvo offer options of either combined HVAC system that can do heat pump heating, or they can do chassis integral direct electric heaters.

 

[InOban]

I read a headline suggesting that First Glasgow are having the same issues with their Electrics

 

[ScotRail158725]

I read a headline suggesting that First Glasgow are having the same issues with their Electrics

Theres 6 that have went back for warranty work dont know if its the same as the BZLs or not

 

[Resuwen]

It's looking increasingly less likely that all of 721-750 will enter service within the next two weeks. From what I've heard, there's also continuing issues with BZLs not lasting until the end of service on colder days. It might well not happen, but if the delivery of the BZLs continues at the current pace with the issues they have, then I wouldn't be all too surprised if Lothian looked into another batch of second hand buses as a short-term stopgap.

Really can’t see Lothian doing the second hand thing again

 

[Vectron383]

Likewise, the circumstances would need to be truly dire.

 

[scosutsut]

They'll retain older vehicles before they buy second hand in my opinion, they've publicly committed to electrification and whenever there is technology change there will always be teething issues which they'll work through.

 

[stevenedin]

They'll retain older vehicles before they buy second hand in my opinion, they've publicly committed to electrification and whenever there is technology change there will always be teething issues which they'll work through.

I agree. I can imagine them keeping older buses for as long as possible.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Did we ever establish what heating and possibly cooling system? The Lothian spec vehicles have? A city like Edinburgh is an absolutely ideal testbed for mass electrification using current technology, some of the terrain is very demanding and obviously the weather can do 10 different things in a week which if depot are having to manually adjust systems all the time will in itself present challenges
After this initial order of however many, it will be an ideal time for other manufacturers to come at them and say we can solve the problem with your factories, running dead or whatever and allow them to possibly test further models before more orders are placed.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Looks like Lothian are back to their 2019-style marketing by offering one free day ticket to the residents of Kirkliston and Winchburgh through the letterbox. I have yet to see a busy X19, so I’m guessing they must be desperate to draw up more passengers.

Nice gesture, though—don’t get me wrong—but if Kirkliston residents are that eager for a Lothian service, maybe they should use the ones they already have. They’ve gone from having none to three in the space of a year!

 

[stevenedin]

Looks like Lothian are back to their 2019-style marketing by offering one free day ticket to the residents of Kirkliston and Winchburgh through the letterbox. I have yet to see a busy X19, so I’m guessing they must be desperate to draw up more passengers.

Nice gesture, though—don’t get me wrong—but if Kirkliston residents are that eager for a Lothian service, maybe they should use the ones they already have. They’ve gone from having none to three in the space of a year!

Hopefully they do start to use it otherwise they only have theirselves to blame. I’ve also only seen empty X19 buses. I have a feeling that if they aren’t used, this will be the last time that they offer a service to the city centre here unless McGill’s withdraw their X38 service from there.

I think that the cheap fares on the X38 won’t help passenger numbers either.

 

[N1]

Did we ever establish what heating and possibly cooling system? The Lothian spec vehicles have?

I have submitted a freedom of information request, but likely won't get a response until well into next year

 

[wlbusser]

Hopefully they do start to use it otherwise they only have theirselves to blame. I’ve also only seen empty X19 buses. I have a feeling that if they aren’t used, this will be the last time that they offer a service to the city centre here unless McGill’s withdraw their X38 service from there.

I think that the cheap fares on the X38 won’t help passenger numbers either.

The cost for me is the main factor stopping me from using the X19 from Winchburgh.
For monthly travel for work I'd be paying close to £36 more with lothian than McGills (£ 110 vs 74.10) plus I'd get 8 extra days less as it's 20 day tickets (Lothian) vs just 28 days travel (McGills)

I never travel much on buses when I'm in the city either so while it's good that I could with Lothian tickets it's not much use to me vs having extra days and saving more.

Do want the X19 to do well and having a later bus in the evening from Edinburgh and night buses to Winchburgh are useful for the odd times I'd use them either work or going out.

 

[stevenedin]

The cost for me is the main factor stopping me from using the X19 from Winchburgh.
For monthly travel for work I'd be paying close to £36 more with lothian than McGills (£ 110 vs 74.10) plus I'd get 8 extra days less as it's 20 day tickets (Lothian) vs just 28 days travel (McGills)

I never travel much on buses when I'm in the city either so while it's good that I could with Lothian tickets it's not much use to me vs having extra days and saving more.

Do want the X19 to do well and having a later bus in the evening from Edinburgh and night buses to Winchburgh are useful for the odd times I'd use them either work or going out.

That’s an interesting perspective. I have thought for a long time that Lothian need to start offering monthly travel options for Lothian Country and East Coast Buses. Previously First and then McGill’s have always offered 28 day tickets.

I feel like the ridacard should be overhauled. There should be one price for the city of Edinburgh, one to include just the Lothians (East Lothian, Midlothian and West Lothian) and then one which covers all of Edinburgh and the Lothians.

So it could be something like £66 per month for just Edinburgh or just one of the Lothians areas but £90 per month to include the network of Edinburgh and the Lothians.

This would make a big difference to people travelling regularly.

They could also probably change it so that you could buy one of the Lothians plus Edinburgh for £70 per month.

It’s just an idea.

 

[LeeThwok]

Looks like Lothian are back to their 2019-style marketing by offering one free day ticket to the residents of Kirkliston and Winchburgh through the letterbox. I have yet to see a busy X19, so I’m guessing they must be desperate to draw up more passengers.

Nice gesture, though—don’t get me wrong—but if Kirkliston residents are that eager for a Lothian service, maybe they should use the ones they already have. They’ve gone from having none to three in the space of a year!

Wouldn’t have thought they’ll be that desperate yet? The service has only been running 18 days.

 

[stevenedin]

Wouldn’t have thought they’ll be that desperate yet? The service has only been running 18 days.

Maybe they want to try everything to get it going and if it doesn’t work at least they tried.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Hopefully they do start to use it otherwise they only have theirselves to blame. I’ve also only seen empty X19 buses. I have a feeling that if they aren’t used, this will be the last time that they offer a service to the city centre here unless McGill’s withdraw their X38 service from there.

I think that the cheap fares on the X38 won’t help passenger numbers either.

That is my worry because I want the X19 to succeed for Lothians benefit at least, and in terms of connecting Kirkliston to the rest of the network and not be cut off, it's like the second chance and if it fails then I doubt they will bother to revise it, along with the overly ambitious N43 extension.

Saying that, I was in the city centre about an hour ago and noticed the X19 westbound with a fairly healthy load, so that's saying something I suppose, however for all I know it could just be passengers going to Corstorphine.

It is still early days so I won't give up hope.

That’s an interesting perspective. I have thought for a long time that Lothian need to start offering monthly travel options for Lothian Country and East Coast Buses. Previously First and then McGill’s have always offered 28 day tickets.

I feel like the ridacard should be overhauled. There should be one price for the city of Edinburgh, one to include just the Lothians (East Lothian, Midlothian and West Lothian) and then one which covers all of Edinburgh and the Lothians.

So it could be something like £66 per month for just Edinburgh or just one of the Lothians areas but £90 per month to include the network of Edinburgh and the Lothians.

This would make a big difference to people travelling regularly.

They could also probably change it so that you could buy one of the Lothians plus Edinburgh for £70 per month.

It’s just an idea.

I had a thought very similar in the past about a revised Ridacard scheme, especially for East and West Lothian, I feel it would work, especially if you offer a good enough deal to attract passengers over the competition.

Even a digital Ridacard (to compliment the M-Tickets) would be handy, buy a monthly or weekly pass on your phone, surely in this day and age it wouldn't be that complicated to set something up, have a tier scheme depending on usage and then start travelling.

 

[overthewater]

OR maybe the local people have seen what happened else where and think it's better the devil you know?

The cost for me is the main factor stopping me from using the X19 from Winchburgh.
For monthly travel for work I'd be paying close to £36 more with lothian than McGills (£ 110 vs 74.10) plus I'd get 8 extra days less as it's 20 day tickets (Lothian) vs just 28 days travel (McGills)

I never travel much on buses when I'm in the city either so while it's good that I could with Lothian tickets it's not much use to me vs having extra days and saving more.

Do want the X19 to do well and having a later bus in the evening from Edinburgh and night buses to Winchburgh are useful for the odd times I'd use them either work or going out.

This important point has been brought up time and time again, If Lothian is only going to win by winning over Government passes then its thier own fault. They could easily have a weekly ticket, I have said if they had done that they could grabbed alot more passengers. They being so half hearted.

 

[LeeThwok]

OR maybe the local people have seen what happened else where and think it's better the devil you know?



This important point has been brought up time and time again, If Lothian is only going to win by winning over Government passes then its thier own fault. They could easily have a weekly ticket, I have said if they had done that they could grabbed alot more passengers. They being so half hearted.

Why do they need a weekly ticket. There is a weekly cap on taptapcap.