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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

Tetchytyke

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Lots of hugely gullible voters out there to be played for. Just ask Farage.
Yep. Gullible voters and a media landscape that is largely controlled by far-right billionaires.

Farage should be a figure of fun, a complete joke, but I genuinely think he'll end up as PM in 2029. All because the BBC like to both-sides everything by giving far-right extremists the same billing as the moderate centre.
 
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AlterEgo

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Farage should be a figure of fun, a complete joke, but I genuinely think he'll end up as PM in 2029. All because the BBC like to both-sides everything by giving far-right extremists the same billing as the moderate centre.
Huge disadvantage to having a national broadcaster imo - I do see that it is hard for them to resist the temptation to say no.
 

Tetchytyke

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Huge disadvantage to having a national broadcaster imo - I do see that it is hard for them to resist the temptation to say no.
It’s the presentation that annoys me. Labour, which are (at least in its current guise) a centrist party, are presented as “the left wing” whilst Reform are presented as “the right wing”. This is why the Overton Window has shifted so far to the right in the last decade or so, political parties which are on the extreme right are now presented as mainstream whilst political parties on the extreme left are excluded from the conversation.

You don’t see the Socialist Workers Party on the BBC, even though they’re the left-wing equivalent of Reform.

Reform are no different to the BNP before them, no matter how much they get the likes of Farage or Rupert Lowe to stand there and speak in their plummy tones.

Reform have 5 MPs and they’re on everything, all of the time. You never see the Lib Dems or the SNP on anything much, despite the fact they’ve got 10 times as many MPs. And you certainly don’t see the left-wing equivalent of Reform on the telly.
 

Yew

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It’s the presentation that annoys me. Labour, which are (at least in its current guise) a centrist party, are presented as “the left wing” whilst Reform are presented as “the right wing”. This is why the Overton Window has shifted so far to the right in the last decade or so, political parties which are on the extreme right are now presented as mainstream whilst political parties on the extreme left are excluded from the conversation.

You don’t see the Socialist Workers Party on the BBC, even though they’re the left-wing equivalent of Reform.

Reform are no different to the BNP before them, no matter how much they get the likes of Farage or Rupert Lowe to stand there and speak in their plummy tones.

Reform have 5 MPs and they’re on everything, all of the time. You never see the Lib Dems or the SNP on anything much, despite the fact they’ve got 10 times as many MPs. And you certainly don’t see the left-wing equivalent of Reform on the telly.
The right wing is not a threat to the neoliberal economic consensus that has made so many of these billionaires.

Unfortunately, the media is no longer so-called 'fourth estate', as it is almost wholly owned by the second.
 

JamesT

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It’s the presentation that annoys me. Labour, which are (at least in its current guise) a centrist party, are presented as “the left wing” whilst Reform are presented as “the right wing”. This is why the Overton Window has shifted so far to the right in the last decade or so, political parties which are on the extreme right are now presented as mainstream whilst political parties on the extreme left are excluded from the conversation.

You don’t see the Socialist Workers Party on the BBC, even though they’re the left-wing equivalent of Reform.

Reform are no different to the BNP before them, no matter how much they get the likes of Farage or Rupert Lowe to stand there and speak in their plummy tones.

Reform have 5 MPs and they’re on everything, all of the time. You never see the Lib Dems or the SNP on anything much, despite the fact they’ve got 10 times as many MPs. And you certainly don’t see the left-wing equivalent of Reform on the telly.
Reform got almost as many votes as the LibDems and the SNP put together at the last general election. That they didn't get an equivalent number of seats is down to the voting system. At the last European election held in the UK (where it's PR so you don't have the same tactical voting clouding the count that FPTP has), Farage's party was the largest with 30% of the vote.

You can't dismiss them as being a right-wing fringe when they have that much public support. They're nothing like the Socialist Workers Party who didn't even put up any candidates last time, but encouraged people to vote for independents running on a pro-Palestine ticket.
 

ainsworth74

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The initial change to retirement age for women was made in 1995. In 2011 the Tories accelerated the change by about two years.

My retirement age was moved from 65 to 68 in the same legislative change in 2011. I won't be getting a single penny in compensation even though I'll be losing somewhere in the region of £35,000 of pension, assuming I live that long. I may not- life expectancy is decreasing.

So I don't see why these people should get anything either.
Quite. I can appreciate that they're unhappy with the change and I can see that it perhaps wasn't as clearly communicated as it should have been but, in reality, this requires some personal responsibility. If you're planning on retiring when you reach 60 then it seems like it would be sensible to check at some point in advance of that date that the assumptions you made when you were in say your 40s are still true when you're in your 50s. In which case that would have revealed the change in pension age.

Plus, fundamentally, there is not the money to pay the compensation anyway. Apparently the compensation would have amounted to around £10.5bn. What would these women prefer we do not spend £10.5bn on so that they can have their compensation? Which bit of the NHS, or which schools, or roads? Quite apart from all the other compensation which is coming down the line and I think, fundamentally, far more deserving such as the infected blood victims or the post masters. Would they prefer we reduce their pay-outs by £10.5bn so that the WASPI women can be compensated for not doing some due diligence?
 

Vinnym

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What I think has annoyed the waspi women is that when Labour were in opposition they came out on their side. Now they have had the rug pulled from under them despite previous support.
 

Tetchytyke

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Reform got almost as many votes as the LibDems and the SNP put together at the last general election. That they didn't get an equivalent number of seats is down to the voting system.
First Past The Post isn't fit for purpose, we all know that. Sadly the electorate had the choice to abolish it and they overwhelmingly rejected that choice.

You can't dismiss them as being a right-wing fringe when they have that much public support.
I don't dismiss them at all. I think they are a very real danger.

They are a far right-wing party though.

Quite. I can appreciate that they're unhappy with the change and I can see that it perhaps wasn't as clearly communicated as it should have been
The initial changes in 1995 were very well communicated, the right wing media was full of people blaming "feminism" for the fact that pension ages for men and women were to be equalised.

I have sympathy for the fact they didn't get as much warning of the 2011 changes. But I do take quite a lot of umbrage at the campaign group calling themselves "Women Against State Pension Inequality" (which is what WASPI means) when what they're actually demanding is that they should be a special case and have a different pension age to the rest of us.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What I think has annoyed the waspi women is that when Labour were in opposition they came out on their side.
Yep, Jeremy Corbyn's Labour was very much on their side. Corbyn still is, to be fair.

The electorate pretty resoundingly disagreed with Corbyn.
 

ainsworth74

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The initial changes in 1995 were very well communicated, the right wing media was full of people blaming "feminism" for the fact that pension ages for men and women were to be equalised.

I have sympathy for the fact they didn't get as much warning of the 2011 changes. But I do take quite a lot of umbrage at the campaign group calling themselves "Women Against State Pension Inequality" (which is what WASPI means) when what they're actually demanding is that they should be a special case and have a different pension age to the rest of us.
Yes I should have been a bit clearer, I have some sympathy for those that got hit worst by the 2011 changes but that's it. And, as you say, I find their name to be somewhat eyebrow raising as what they're actually arguing for is more inequality.
 

jon0844

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Lots of hugely gullible voters out there to be played for. Just ask Farage.

Slightly off topic, but still relevant (IMHO) it seems Trump is now saying he can't fix grocery prices and that Ukraine is more complicated than he thought so won't be fixed on day one. He also seems to have cooled on victimising trans people.

I fully expect he'll backtrack on every single thing he promised people who voted for him. Even the plan for mass deportations likely won't go to plan.

If Farage manages to infiltrate the Tories or gets millions from Musk, he will almost certainly hoodwink the British electorate and do the same. There are many working class people who vote Labour but will still be excited by the prospect of deporting those 'pesky foreigners' that come over here and claim all our benefits while also taking all our jobs....
 

JamesT

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Yes I should have been a bit clearer, I have some sympathy for those that got hit worst by the 2011 changes but that's it. And, as you say, I find their name to be somewhat eyebrow raising as what they're actually arguing for is more inequality.
AIUI, the compensation recommended by the Ombudsman which the government have just decided not to pay is for failures in communication by the DWP. This 'maladministration' began in the 2000s. What's not clear to me is whether the £10.5bn bill is just for that, or whether that's the potential bill for restoring that group to the pre-95 scheme.
 

edwin_m

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At the last European election held in the UK (where it's PR so you don't have the same tactical voting clouding the count that FPTP has), Farage's party was the largest with 30% of the vote.
I don't think that figure proves anything much. That election was strongly effectively irrelevant due to the imminence of Brexit, so even more ideal as a place for a protest vote than previous European elections.

I wash pollsters would also ask questions like "which party would you ideally like to see in government", to shed more light on how much people's choices are distorted by tactical considerations.

None of that is to say that Reform doesn't have significant support. Currently, although Labour has done some good things, they will take some time to deliver. The bad or badly-presented things are uppermost in people's minds, duly amplified by a predominantly right-wing media even when they are consequences of Tory government actions. The worry is that if Labour can't sort this out by the next election, they will continue to lose popularity and the terrible Tory track record will still be in people's memories, so Reform could be the default choice for many.
 

brad465

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I don't think that figure proves anything much. That election was strongly effectively irrelevant due to the imminence of Brexit, so even more ideal as a place for a protest vote than previous European elections.

I wash pollsters would also ask questions like "which party would you ideally like to see in government", to shed more light on how much people's choices are distorted by tactical considerations.

None of that is to say that Reform doesn't have significant support. Currently, although Labour has done some good things, they will take some time to deliver. The bad or badly-presented things are uppermost in people's minds, duly amplified by a predominantly right-wing media even when they are consequences of Tory government actions. The worry is that if Labour can't sort this out by the next election, they will continue to lose popularity and the terrible Tory track record will still be in people's memories, so Reform could be the default choice for many.
Reform UK mainly exists to force the Tories to move further to the right, just as UKIP did pre-2016. FPTP has helped in this context, as UKIP/Reform effectively hijacked the Tories to achieve this; under PR this wouldn't have been necessary. The left wing equivalent was Momentum hijacking Labour.

PR would actually help moderate politics, for all the concern it will further enable more extreme parties like Reform. It will make hijacking other parties less effective, if at all, while also parties will have to broaden their appeal, which usually means moderating their positions, so extreme positions are less prominent. Several right wing parties in Europe, particularly in France and Italy, have had to moderate key policy positions to appeal to more voters, this is particularly noticeable with regard to their EU stance, where they no longer advocate leaving or even having a vote on the issue, despite previously advocating them.
 

takno

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AIUI, the compensation recommended by the Ombudsman which the government have just decided not to pay is for failures in communication by the DWP. This 'maladministration' began in the 2000s. What's not clear to me is whether the £10.5bn bill is just for that, or whether that's the potential bill for restoring that group to the pre-95 scheme.
It was around 3000 per person, so definitely not enough to restore them to the pre 95 scheme.

I'm a bit mystified by some of the reaction to this tbh. It's never struck me as a particularly good or sympathetic cause, and it would be a huge transfer of cash to people who, in a huge proportion of the cases, are experiencing no hardship at all. The ombudsman's response to being told to jog on strikes me as particularly out of order - it makes them sound like a campaign group.
 

Howardh

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Labour now appear to be right, the Tories further right than normal, and Reform even further right. That leaves us Libdems soley controlling the left/centre left!!
 

nw1

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Yep. Gullible voters and a media landscape that is largely controlled by far-right billionaires.

Farage should be a figure of fun, a complete joke, but I genuinely think he'll end up as PM in 2029. All because the BBC like to both-sides everything by giving far-right extremists the same billing as the moderate centre.
I still think he would be too extremist to get in.

Any chance of him seriously getting in and Labour, the Lib Dems and even moderate Tories would form some kind of electoral alliance to keep him out, even if this means offering some kind of Labour-Tory-Lib Dem "national unity government".
I'm no Tory but had I lived in Clacton I'd have half-considered voting Watling last time, just to keep that man out.

I also believe that there would be a suspension of true democracy if he gets in. To my mind he is far worse than Trump; Trump is merely a power-freak while that man, in my own personal opinion, is a genuine hard-right extremist who actively despises certain sections of society. In my opinion we could end up with Russian-style pseudo-elections at best. And people here value their democracy perhaps more than say the USA. Plus I can't see the UK taking kindly to a South African billionaire using his obscenely excessive wealth to buy the outcome of the next election.

In summary, I think we'd see alliances like we've never seen before to keep the man out. Many of us are genuinely scared of what would result if that man got in; it would make Boris and Thatcher seem like a walk in the park. We'd have Theresa May-style Tories uniting with Corbynites and strong social liberals. And what helps is that there are a broader range of realistic alternatives here compared to the USA, which was basically just Trump vs. the Democrats. So if you don't like Labour, you've got the Lib Dems or (assuming they get rid of Badenoch) a more moderate Tory Party to choose from.
 
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AlterEgo

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What tax do you propose increasing or spending you would cut to pay any compensation?
Or to put it another way, which of our young people with limited means of building capital will be taxed the most to funnel yet more money to older people? Gross. Hope my generation never feels so entitled, and glad we are slowly moving beyond the supine and servile "respect your elders" and treating these people the same as every other cohort of grown adults.
 

Broucek

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It's rude to say so, but pensions to women starting at any given day are, on average, more valuable than those for men due to their greater longevity....

I must say, however, that I am genuinely concerned about the gradual increase to the state pension age. It makes sense economically and actuarially but I don't know many people who fancy being in fullish time work in their latish 60s. Work is, for many people, more intense than even 10 or so years ago
 

Gloster

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The problem is that everybody agrees that the country is in a financial mess and Labour needs to take some tough measures to sort it out, but their particular group‘s circumstances should be an exception. So it ever was, but the increase in selfishness and entitlement, particularly by some groups that have been let off lighly in recent years, has made things even worse. Throw in the general distrust of politicians that was greatly increased by the government’s shenanigans during lockdown and a press that is doing its utmost to stoke up opposition to the current government and our prospects are bleak.

As far as Farage (rinse out mouth) is concerned, I don’t think he would want to be Prime Minister: too much work and too little money. He is really just a mixture of grifter and disrupter, but - sadly - he is very good at both.
 
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edwin_m

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Reform UK mainly exists to force the Tories to move further to the right, just as UKIP did pre-2016.
I believe the Tories are so much of a busted flush after 15 years of failure that there is little point in Reform trying to influence them. Instead the threat now comes from Reform itself getting significant numbers of seats.
PR would actually help moderate politics, for all the concern it will further enable more extreme parties like Reform.
I agree with that part thought.
 

JamesT

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Reform UK mainly exists to force the Tories to move further to the right, just as UKIP did pre-2016. FPTP has helped in this context, as UKIP/Reform effectively hijacked the Tories to achieve this; under PR this wouldn't have been necessary. The left wing equivalent was Momentum hijacking Labour.

PR would actually help moderate politics, for all the concern it will further enable more extreme parties like Reform. It will make hijacking other parties less effective, if at all, while also parties will have to broaden their appeal, which usually means moderating their positions, so extreme positions are less prominent. Several right wing parties in Europe, particularly in France and Italy, have had to moderate key policy positions to appeal to more voters, this is particularly noticeable with regard to their EU stance, where they no longer advocate leaving or even having a vote on the issue, despite previously advocating them.
On the flip side, you have Scotland or Israel, where smaller parties demand extreme policies as the price of joining a coalition.
 

Tetchytyke

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That leaves us Libdems soley controlling the left/centre left!!
And the LibDems were standing up for the right for farmers to pay less tax than the rest of us!
Or to put it another way, which of our young people with limited means of building capital will be taxed the most to funnel yet more money to older people? Gross. Hope my generation never feels so entitled,
Precisely.

The campaign group Women Against State Pension Inequality seem curiously disinterested about the fact that the real pension inequality is actually against the young working age people. The same young working age people that the Women Against State Pension Inequality expect to fund their £10bn compensation.
 

Ediswan

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The problem for Labour is that in opposition they supported the WASPI campaign for compensation. Now in government, they are doing the opposite.
 

brad465

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I believe the Tories are so much of a busted flush after 15 years of failure that there is little point in Reform trying to influence them. Instead the threat now comes from Reform itself getting significant numbers of seats.
Now that might be true, but while the Tories were in government UKIP/Reform's main purpose was to influence the Tories rather than replace them.
On the flip side, you have Scotland or Israel, where smaller parties demand extreme policies as the price of joining a coalition.
True, but that still happens under FPTP too: the DUP's confidence and supply deal with the Tories was a strong example of this.
 

Thirteen

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I still think he would be too extremist to get in.

Any chance of him seriously getting in and Labour, the Lib Dems and even moderate Tories would form some kind of electoral alliance to keep him out, even if this means offering some kind of Labour-Tory-Lib Dem "national unity government".
I'm no Tory but had I lived in Clacton I'd have half-considered voting Watling last time, just to keep that man out.

I also believe that there would be a suspension of true democracy if he gets in. To my mind he is far worse than Trump; Trump is merely a power-freak while that man, in my own personal opinion, is a genuine hard-right extremist who actively despises certain sections of society. In my opinion we could end up with Russian-style pseudo-elections at best. And people here value their democracy perhaps more than say the USA. Plus I can't see the UK taking kindly to a South African billionaire using his obscenely excessive wealth to buy the outcome of the next election.

In summary, I think we'd see alliances like we've never seen before to keep the man out. Many of us are genuinely scared of what would result if that man got in; it would make Boris and Thatcher seem like a walk in the park. We'd have Theresa May-style Tories uniting with Corbynites and strong social liberals. And what helps is that there are a broader range of realistic alternatives here compared to the USA, which was basically just Trump vs. the Democrats. So if you don't like Labour, you've got the Lib Dems or (assuming they get rid of Badenoch) a more moderate Tory Party to choose from.
The UK political and voting system prevents the likes of Farage ever gaining power. Also the fact Farage has proven to be a rather useless MP for Clacton doesn't help him either.

A lot can happen between now and the next election, there's a chance Farage may end up not standing at the next election.
 
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brad465

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The UK political and voting system prevents the likes of Farage ever gaining power. Also the fact Farage has proven to be a rather useless MP for Clacton doesn't help him either.

A lot can happen between now and the next election, there's a chance Farage may end up not standing at the next election.
He's also a 60-year old alcoholic chain smoker. Add another 4-5 years and he could easily not be in the best of health to lead a party, let alone a government. Furthermore, being tied to Trump might be working out well for Farage and other equivalents around the world, but if it all goes wrong in the US, they'll be exposed and trying hard to pretend they had nothing to do with him (and by all probability failing).
 

Crithylum

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Personally I agree with the decision to not payout. Although the optics are absolutely terrible. Basically my view of this government overall.

I didn’t get sent a letter when they raised tuition; long story short I think they are clutching at straws.
 

Purple Train

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The UK political and voting system prevents the likes of Farage ever gaining power. Also the fact Farage has proven to be a rather useless MP for Clacton doesn't help him either.

A lot can happen between now and the next election, there's a chance Farage may end up not standing at the next election.
I discussed this with a friend of mine the morning after the American election, and we both agreed that no one like Farage or Trump would ever get in, much like you say, simply due to the mathematics of our voting system. But after four and a half more years of the Reform elites greasily persuading the gullible that they are the antidote to this nasty establishment, numerical psephology will, I fear, go sharply out the window...at least there are two votes his band of snake oil salesmen won't be getting in 2029!

It does seem like a perfect storm, though. A Labour government that is resolutely apolitical, versus bad actors who know how to play the game. Government is about confronting hard truths for the good of future generations, and politics is about ignoring them until Friday afternoon, ad infinitum - truer than ever in a post-truth world built on a grotesquely hedonistic brand of Romanticism and vibes. Much as it pains me to say it, I am seriously dreading what Britain will look like in 70 years' time - I hope to goodness I won't be a white-haired old man reminiscing about the "good old days" of my youth. But maybe I need to learn to appreciate today for what it is - I live in a liberal democracy, I am free to practise my religion, I am free to have a decent education. It could, soberingly, be worse...
 

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