ScotRail HST replacement tender issued - ideas thread

[whitrope]

Cheers. Bit of a reduction!

Platform docking in Waverley and QS might take some planning with an all 5 car fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

Platform docking in Waverley and QS might take some planning with an all 5 car fleet.

Why?

They are shorter than even a four-car HST.

 

[whitrope]

Why?

They are shorter than even a four-car HST.

That’s ok then isn’t it

 

[D365]

Not as much as having to stick a 158 in place of an hst cause they can't persuade an hst to play ball and go and do some work.

Am I correct in understanding that, out of the ~25 HST consists, only 19 are diagrammed in a day?

 

[hexagon789]

Am I correct in understanding that, out of the ~25 HST consists, only 19 are diagrammed in a day?

16 since the timetable change (it was 15 before that). Planned to increase to 19 at the May 2025 timetable change, to facilitate the service increases/alterations in Fife.

And there are 24 in-service sets as HA02 hasn't entered traffic yet since its return but will hopefully do so before May.

 

[Nym]

Am I correct in understanding that, out of the ~25 HST consists, only 19 are diagrammed in a day?

There’s also a desire to cover Class 170 overhauls and mods programmes with the I7C fleet…

 

[D365]

Thanks both for the detail.

So it seems plausible that all of the five car 222s will end up in Scotland. What happens to the seven car units in that scenario is not clear.

 

[GLC]

Transport Scotland and ScotRail have some serious questions to answer about wasting public money, as they will be paying for the HSTs still through to 2030.

I think that is an unfair characterisation in these circumstances. The lease of the HSTs was done by Abellio, along with the end date of 2030. Yes TS accepted Abellio's bid on the basis on the use of HSTs versus other bidders, but I don't recall any particular objections to the use of HSTs. There were comments about "English hand me downs" etc, and about the general age of the units, but it was Carmont that put the continuing use of HSTs into sharp perspective. ASLEF in particular started pushing for replacements post RAIB enquiry, which was published just as Scotrail Trains took over from Abellio.

To go from unions potentially blacklisting the HSTs, to organising the tender bidding process for replacement units within 18 months of taking over the operation, with the end result the HSTs are taken out of service 3 years earlier than intended, given what has happened in the 10 years since the HSTs were proposed and accepted, is really not bad going in my view.

 

[Snow1964]

My understanding is that route will be covered by some of the new IETs that were part of the announcement keeping Newton Aycliffe going for the next few years.

I must have misread the press release on new IETs as I thought they were not expected until 3 years time (it says delivery commences late 2027), so was assuming the Carmarthen service would start with interim fleet, unless start of service is delayed until 2028.

Hence my question about did First manage to nab some (even for couple of years) before Scotland invited bids.

 

[RailWonderer]

I must have misread the press release on new IETs as I thought they were not expected until 3 years time (it says delivery commences late 2027), so was assuming the Carmarthen service would start with interim fleet, unless start of service is delayed until 2028.

Hence my question about did First manage to nab some (even for couple of years) before Scotland invited bids.

Scotrail could always keep a few HSTs and take the Meridians they can get, then when First/GU's IETs are delivered Scotrail can mop up the last Meridians the same way XC took Virgin/Avanti's Voyagers when they became available.

 

[Carntyne]

No HSTs will be kept - they're fit for the bin and need replaced urgently so passengers can have some sort of reliable service between the seven cities.

 

[eastwestdivide]

On the seating capacity issue, is there scope for refitting the 222s with a lower proportion of 1st class? To get the capacity closer to the HST sets.
No idea what the demand is like for 1st on Scotrail, but it seems like the 222s are currently over-provided with 1st accommodation.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Carmarthen starts with 80x fleet. An “interim” fleet is required for Stirling and that is in the advance stage of negotiation.

If that takes place, Scotrail could still take 22 sets (for 19 diagrams) of cl.222 in the 2026-27 period, in line with their tender requirements.

 

[sprinterguy]

On the seating capacity issue, is there scope for refitting the 222s with a lower proportion of 1st class? To get the capacity closer to the HST sets.
No idea what the demand is like for 1st on Scotrail, but it seems like the 222s are currently over-provided with 1st accommodation.

As I noted, reducing first class accommodation to 22 seats in one driving car could yield a total standard class capacity, in a 5-car set, of 232: Still 48 seats shy of a 5-car HST.

 

[Christmas]

Would simply leasing extra available(?) 158 or 159s not meet the criteria of this document?

 

[snookertam]

I think that is an unfair characterisation in these circumstances. The lease of the HSTs was done by Abellio, along with the end date of 2030. Yes TS accepted Abellio's bid on the basis on the use of HSTs versus other bidders, but I don't recall any particular objections to the use of HSTs. There were comments about "English hand me downs" etc, and about the general age of the units, but it was Carmont that put the continuing use of HSTs into sharp perspective. ASLEF in particular started pushing for replacements post RAIB enquiry, which was published just as Scotrail Trains took over from Abellio.

To go from unions potentially blacklisting the HSTs, to organising the tender bidding process for replacement units within 18 months of taking over the operation, with the end result the HSTs are taken out of service 3 years earlier than intended, given what has happened in the 10 years since the HSTs were proposed and accepted, is really not bad going in my view.

There were plenty of objections to HSTs at the time, particularly from railway staff who didn’t understand the need to introduce a fleet twice the age of the one it was replacing. It was the first thing that was noted about the plan in fact.

First Group proposed running 6 car class 170s using the units released from electrified routes and what did they know? They’d only ran the service for a decade.

 

[eastwestdivide]

As I noted, reducing first class accommodation to 22 seats in one driving car could yield a total standard class capacity, in a 5-car set, of 232: Still 48 seats shy of a 5-car HST.

Cheers. And sorry, missed your earlier post

 

[43096]

No HSTs will be kept - they're fit for the bin and need replaced urgently so passengers can have some sort of reliable service between the seven cities.

The only reason for the unreliability is the company operating them.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I must have misread the press release on new IETs as I thought they were not expected until 3 years time (it says delivery commences late 2027), so was assuming the Carmarthen service would start with interim fleet, unless start of service is delayed until 2028.

Hence my question about did First manage to nab some (even for couple of years) before Scotland invited bids.

If Scotrail can get 22-23 (which would leave 4 or 5 for one of First's cash grabs open access operators), that'll do. If the full fleet of 27 becomes available later, they could be used to enhance Scotrail services if wanted.

On the seating capacity issue, is there scope for refitting the 222s with a lower proportion of 1st class? To get the capacity closer to the HST sets.
No idea what the demand is like for 1st on Scotrail, but it seems like the 222s are currently over-provided with 1st accommodation.

The 170s have 18 First Class seats, which are rarely fully utilised. The HSTs have 32 seats.

As I noted, reducing first class accommodation to 22 seats in one driving car could yield a total standard class capacity, in a 5-car set, of 232: Still 48 seats shy of a 5-car HST.

I get 238, but close enough - depends how you fit out the cars. Ripping out the buffets would get you a few more. That does comfortably exceed a 4-car HST, though, and a number of 6-car 222s would exceed what you get in a 5-car HST for the services that need it. Total number of seats across the fleet is reduced, but it probably more or less works.

You'd need to convert the composite and First Class centre cars to Standard, but that ought to be relatively straightforward. Ripping out the buffets gets a few more seats but is probably more work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ripping out the buffets gets a few more seats but is probably more work.

If the buffets are removed it'll more likely be for mid-train cycle and luggage provision, as the end doors can't guarantee to be on the platform.

 

[D365]

Scotrail could always keep a few HSTs and take the Meridians they can get, then when First/GU's IETs are delivered Scotrail can mop up the last Meridians the same way XC took Virgin/Avanti's Voyagers when they became available.

Unless you’re implying that this is to cover for 170s undergoing overhaul. I’m not sure why that would be necessary. It’s been established that the 23 five car 222s will be sufficient for 19 daily diagrams.

 

[ChrisC]

I haven't used a 222 since EMR took over, but in MML and EMT days, I used them regular, I always found them a very nice train to travel on and with the big windows, they could be an idea stopgap solution for Scotrail.

I’ve travelled on them fairly regularly right from when they were first introduced by EMT. I remember the 9 car trains. I’ve always found them a nice train to travel on and far superior to a Voyager. The main issue that I think will need addressing, especially on services to Inverness and Aberdeen, is luggage space as the overhead racks are useless. Even on a 170 or 158 my small case will fit on the rack but not on a 222. Whenever I travel between Nottingham and London with luggage I try to get a reasonably priced First Class ticket where there is luggage space between some of the seats.

 

[hwl]

As I noted, reducing first class accommodation to 22 seats in one driving car could yield a total standard class capacity, in a 5-car set, of 232: Still 48 seats shy of a 5-car HST.

But you are comparing apples and oranges
The 5 car 222 should be compared with a 4 car HST
The 6 car 222 should be compared with a 5 car HST

In both cases the 222 is an uplift in capacity compared to the relevant equivalent.

 

[Clansman]

Why do you think this?

See my post in another thread here.

In short, you'd need a full 6 or 7 car set just to at least match the luggage capacity and seating capacity of a 5-car HST due to the wasteful inefficiencies in its design when it comes to luggage space and seating capacity versus what ScotRail require.

At least in the case of the 222s, they’re pretty decent trains.

I find them pleasant enough to travel in but I worry at how they will fair given 5-car HSTs working Edinburgh to Inverness are often full and standing and do not have enough luggage space. The problem with I7C routes in Scotland is that the loadings are volatile. Out of Aberdeen on one train you can have decently loaded 170, and another you've got a full HST.

I also worry that the fact that 170s run on these routes gives folk the illusion that 5-cars is enough when it's not about the number of carriages but instead how much you can fit in within that space. The 222s in that regard, are poor.

There is no doubt they can be the best of a bad bunch for stop-gapping purposes, but as a permanent solution, I disagree.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2024 ==

But you are comparing apples and oranges
The 5 car 222 should be compared with a 4 car HST
The 6 car 222 should be compared with a 5 car HST

In both cases the 222 is an uplift in capacity compared to the relevant equivalent.

Now compare luggage space and seating density. Completely different story.

 

[Aaron_TTL]

Now compare luggage space and seating density. Completely different story.

Exactly, all customers care about is, is this new fleet more reliable (yes thankfully), and does it have enough seats, potentially no, but perhaps being more reliable than the HSTs will mean overall its fine, as you wont have a 2 carriage 158 subbing for a HST.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I also worry that the fact that 170s run on these routes gives folk the illusion that 5-cars is enough when it's not about the number of carriages but instead how much you can fit in within that space. The 222s in that regard, are poor.

See also the fact that 170s (and occasionally 158s) run these routes give people the impression that high quality interurban stock - with luggage space, comfortable seats, end doors, and catering - isn't justified. Usually drawing parallels with some meandering service between Little Snoring and West Dimblechurch.

 

[Clansman]

See also the fact that 170s (and occasionally 158s) run these routes give people the impression that high quality interurban stock - with luggage space, comfortable seats, end doors, and catering - isn't justified. Usually drawing parallels with some meandering service between Little Snoring and West Dimblechurch.

100%

A lot of the time they aren't users of the services either, so are basing it off illusion if nothing else without understanding the details.

I'm a regular on I7C routes and can forsee the 222s being troublesome without heavy interior modifications. Anything less than 6 cars a set with significant seating layout and luggage modifications, is going to be hugely problematic for a huge chuck of services.

 

[stevieinselby]

No mark5s for far north and WHL

Not for the Far North, but there are already Mk5s running on the West Highland Line ... on the sleeper!

Could 222s be shortened to form a small fleet of 3 or 4 cars for the West Highlands? The extra coaches being inserted into make longer I7C trains?

Could? Maybe. Should? Absolutely not.
The 222s are great intercity trains capable of 125mph. It would be a criminal waste of resources to run them on local services with a typical linespeed of 40–50mph.

I haven't used a 222 since EMR took over, but in MML and EMT days, I used them regular, I always found them a very nice train to travel on and with the big windows, they could be an idea stopgap solution for Scotrail.

Agreed. I loved them when HT used to use them, such a shame when they got replaced with Adelantes...

The passenger capacity requirements can be met by reconfigured 222s, but I don't know how readily they'd be able to meet the requirement (29.4) to carry six bicycles without vertical hanging. I'm not sure anything other than the WHL Highland Explorers can do that at the moment.

I wouldn't have thought it would be too difficult to install additional bike storage in the train, although it may need removal of a toilet or some seating to allow it.

So if the 222's need to be 6 cars to not be any worse capacity wise than the HSTs.. There aren't nearly enough seeing as theres what 23 HST sets? This doesn't seem like a good like for like replacement.

A good number of the current HST fleet are only 4-cars, so 5-car Meridians would be an improvement on them. And given that several trains a day are still run by 3-car Turbostars, is capacity really at that much of a premium?

 

[duffield]

The condition of the 222s is a concern. Cosmetically, they are be OKish, the worn standard seats are being re-covered at present (mostly seem done to me but maybe I'm missing the services where they have not been). But they seem to have more serious problems like constant failures of the reservation systems and accessible toilets.

I suppose they could be put into service with Scotrail in their current condition but it's not going to look great when they turn up with "No reservations available, accessible toilet out of order" in their first week. If they want them to be fully working, I'd wager that the current reservation systems may be virtually unfixable since they are bound to use outdated, unsupported computer hardware with no new spares available; complete replacement would not be a quick job.

 

[380101]

The condition of the 222s is a concern. Cosmetically, they are be OKish, the worn standard seats are being re-covered at present (mostly seem done to me but maybe I'm missing the services where they have not been). But they seem to have more serious problems like constant failures of the reservation systems and accessible toilets.

I suppose they could be put into service with Scotrail in their current condition but it's not going to look great when they turn up with "No reservations available, accessible toilet out of order" in their first week. If they want them to be fully working, I'd wager that the current reservation systems may be virtually unfixable since they are bound to use outdated, unsupported computer hardware with no new spares available; complete replacement would not be a quick job.

The tender requires any rolling stock to be supplied in a refurbished state, including at seat reservation signs.