Advice please

[jane141516]

Hi everyone, first time posting.

I was on a train, having a ticket that I bought through my online account. Inspectors came and asked for my ticket. When they checked it showed that it comes with student railcard discount. They asked for my card, which i showed. But… my card has expired in the beginning of 2024 To be honest I never thought of it up until now when they stopped me. Also, the discount option was memorised on my account and all tickets that i have been buying have been with a discount. I seriously didn’t think of this once. Horrible mistake, completely my fault! So they took my details- name, address and DOB and took my expired card. Also, they looked at my online account to see purchased tickets. While going through all this, I missed my stop. They fined me which i paid by card straight away, then told me to get on the next train and go back to the stop i was originally supposed to get off on.
My question is what’s next? Should I speak to a lawyer? Should I wait for some communication from them? Will they take me to court, although I have paid the penalty straight away? I am so worried, can’t even think straight, eat or sleep.
Please, could you advise on my options?
Also, how long does it take for the receipt of any letters from them?

Thank you so much in advance!

 

[John R]

When they say they fined you, do you mean they imposed a penalty fare (of £50 penalty + £8 fare)?

 

[jane141516]

When they say they fined you, do you mean they imposed a penalty fare (of £50 penalty + £8 fare

I can’t really tell. I was so shaken. It’s a long yellow paper ticket (ticket receipt written on the top) with orange lines on the sides. It says it is not valid for travel at the bottom, receipt only.

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[John R]

I can’t really tell. I was so shaken. It’s a long yellow paper ticket (ticket receipt written on the top) with orange lines on the sides. It says it is not valid for travel at the bottom, receipt only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2024 ==

Could you post an image of it here please, with your personal details redacted. As well as identifying what exactly you have been given, sometimes experts here will spot errors in it which may help any appeal. (If it is a Penalty Fare you were given, you have 21 days to appeal, even if you have paid it.)

It’s (I think, others may correct me) unusual to given a PF for an out of date railcard. More common is to be referred for investigation and possible prosecution. That enables them to check for other potential cases where you have not paid the correct fare.

 

[jane141516]

I will post it.
I have asked if i should expect/do anything else, but they said no.
How long does it take for documents to be send to home address?

 

[jfollows]

I will post it.
I have asked if i should expect/do anything else, but they said no.
How long does it take for documents to be send to home address?

Slow down!
Post what you’ve received and we’ll give you good advice. In the meantime, don’t panic, it’s not as bad as you’re trying to convince yourself that it is.

 

[John R]

If you’ve been given and paid a Penalty Fare that should be the end of it.

 

[jane141516]

Thank you.
Im literally shaking ever since this happened, I am not able to function.
Please see below attached.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you.
Im literally shaking ever since this happened, I am not able to function.
Please see below attached.

This is a receipt. Did you have to buy a new ticket, or were you given a Penalty Fare? If you were penalty fared you would have a copy of that.

 

[jane141516]

They said I need to pay a penalty fare. I paid it at the spot. This is what they gave me. And took my details beforehand. Took my expired travel card too. Not sure what to do now…
This has happened while i was on the train. They took out all their devices and scanned things and made me pay.
I have the feeling i must speak to a solicitor, this is very unclear and they didn’t give me any information. Just followed me around.

 

[AlterEgo]

They said I need to pay a penalty fare. I paid it at the spot. This is what they gave me. And took my details beforehand. Took my expired travel card too. Not sure what to do now…
This has happened while i was on the train. They took out all their devices and scanned things and made me pay.

If you were Penalty Fared you should have been given a copy of the penalty fare.

Is it the case that they simply sold you a new ticket? How much did you pay, and what was your journey?

 

[jane141516]

£4.75 with the discount, £7.20 full price.

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How long does it take to receive any correspondence from them?

 

[SuspectUsual]

£4.75 with the discount, £7.20 full price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2024 ==

How long does it take to receive any correspondence from them?

So was the amount you paid actually £57.20 rather than £58?

 

[jane141516]

Yes. What does this mean?

 

[SuspectUsual]

So the numbers make it look like you’ve received a penalty fare (£100 discounted to £50 for prompt payment) and paid that and the cost of an undiscounted ticket. But you should’ve been given a copy of the penalty fare.

If that’s the case, it *should* be the end of the matter

And if you have been charged a penalty fare, you’ve probably been a bit lucky as it means the incident is dealt with there and then, whereas reporting you would probably have meant they looked into your previous purchases and if they were other journeys since January where you’d incorrectly applied a railcard discount they’d have come after you for more money

 

[jane141516]

Thank you.
How do I get a copy of the penalty fare? Should I approach them? They asked for all my details, I wrote it in their notebook. Also, they scrolled through my account to check what has been bought but nothing else.
Can they still decide to investigate? They followed me quite a lot yesterday, making sure I am going to the right stop, then exiting the station.

 

[WesternLancer]

This seems unusual in some ways.

Perhaps the OP @jane141516 can answer these questions in full or in part. Please answer using the numbers, and if you are not sure of the answer please answer 'I don't know'.

1) Is the OP saying that they missed their stop because the staff investigating the ticket (who must have seen the destination on the ticket) spent so much time dealing with it that none of them including the staff noticed the passenger needed to get off?

2) Was the Penalty fare issued because the passenger was then still on the train and thus didn't have a ticket beyond their intended stop?

3) Or was the Penalty Fare issued because the ticket used for the journey was discounted with a railcard that was no longer valid?

4) How did @jane141516 get back to the intended destination station? Presumably by train going back the other way, and if so was a new ticket bought for that journey

5) Which train company was this with if you know (eg Thameslink, Great western, Transport for London etc)

6) which stations were involved (ie where were you travelling from and to, where di you end up when you missed your stop)?

For the OP to be aware of:

If you paid a £50 Penalty Fare because the Railcard had expired, they may have taken your name and address for the Penalty Fare records (in case you get stopped again for a ticketing problem they like to have a record of regular people who have the wrong ticket in case thy are deliberately evading fares - which I realise you were not evading)

If that closes the matter you have had a 'lucky escape' because a Penalty Fare is the cheapest / least worst 'punishment' you can get really.

However, with expired railcards they like to take address details etc because they know people have often made other journeys with the expired railcard even if they have done this by mistake. They then want to write to you about that because they want you to pay the amount owed for not having had a valid Railcard for those other journeys. This is something that gets investigated back in the office, not by the staff on the train.

If they then want to ask about those journeys they will write to you - it may take 6 to 8 weeks, more if Christmas is coming and staff are on holiday. They would be extremely unlikely to just prosecute you unless you failed to reply to them.

If they write to you about any of this experts here can help you with what your reply needs to say.

The important thing is to watch out for a letter in the coming weeks and months, so hopefully the address they gave you is the correct one and that you will still be at the address for the next few months. they might also e-mail you so keep an eye on your e-mail address and your spam, but they usually write hard copy.

There is no need to speak to a solicitor at this stage. You are a long way from needing to do that.

I hope this information helps.

 

[Pushpit]

Thank you.
Im literally shaking ever since this happened, I am not able to function.

That's not an unusual response to this situation, there are a few threads where other participants in this forum have said something similar. I'm sure you know this, but in case it helps to have someone else say the following, albeit a random guy off the internet!
- it's not crime of the century, or anywhere near it, it happens to hundreds of people daily. It's just a bit of carelessness, with remedies
- the team you dealt with will have already forgotten about the incident and you, even if you haven't. It's system, a machine.
- Usually over the next few days you will get a better sense of perspective about this, so don't dwell too much on it right now, distract yourself if necessary.

This is the official NHS England and Wales page on the topic of anxiety, it's written quite clearly but actually it's packed with the science of where your brain is. If you look at the anxiety "mental symptoms", you may be able to tick off a few of them.

Get help with anxiety, fear or panic

NHS information and advice about what to do if you find it hard to cope with anxiety, fear or panic.

www.nhs.uk

In the next steps - well you have done the most important thing, which is shared your problem with social media contacts, and I hope you can see the benefit of that. See the other steps mentioned, but talking to a trusted friend or family member will also help enormously. It's just one of those things, and nothing to be ashamed about. At the end of the page, there is information whether you should go to your GP or other service for a bit more help.

In terms of the status of the Penalty Fare - you said you paid by card - does the online account details of the card give more information? For example if you expand the details of the transaction. But it does have every hallmark of a Penalty Fare, in which case as far as the train company is concerned that brings this issue to a close. It's just possible that it will trigger a digital check of your travels since January 2024, I personally think it's unlikely and can be handled without too much hassle, if that happens.

 

[jane141516]

1) Is the OP saying that they missed their stop because the staff investigating the ticket (who must have seen the destination on the ticket) spent so much time dealing with it that none of them including the staff noticed the passenger needed to get off?- yes

2) Was the Penalty fare issued because the passenger was then still on the train and thus didn't have a ticket beyond their intended stop?- I don’t know, I assume it is because of the expired card

3) Or was the Penalty Fare issued because the ticket used for the journey was discounted with a railcard that was no longer valid?- I think this was the issue

4) How did @jane141516 get back to the intended destination station? Presumably by train going back the other way, and if so was a new ticket bought for that journey- they asked me to get off on the next station and catch the train back to the one I was supposed to get off on. Also, they wrote at the back of this paper, that I should use it as a proof at the doors, when exiting the station I was originally supposed to get off on.

5) Which train company was this with if you know (eg Thameslink, Great western, Transport for London etc)-
6) which stations were involved (ie where were you travelling from and to, where di you end up when you missed your stop)?- can I write this in private, because I am aware the forum is being monitored?


If it comes to that, i would happily pay the full amount I am supposed to pay just to save myself from legal proceedings.

@Pushpit thank you for the information, I will definitely take a look. I have never been in situation like this before and I was not sure how to act and what to do. I can’t afford to get criminal record…

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for these replies - helpful info - any thoughts I have below:

1) Is the OP saying that they missed their stop because the staff investigating the ticket (who must have seen the destination on the ticket) spent so much time dealing with it that none of them including the staff noticed the passenger needed to get off?- yes

That wasn't helpful of them but what is done is done

2) Was the Penalty fare issued because the passenger was then still on the train and thus didn't have a ticket beyond their intended stop?- I don’t know, I assume it is because of the expired card

3) Or was the Penalty Fare issued because the ticket used for the journey was discounted with a railcard that was no longer valid?- I think this was the issue

Fair enough if you are not 100% sure

4) How did @jane141516 get back to the intended destination station? Presumably by train going back the other way, and if so was a new ticket bought for that journey- they asked me to get off on the next station and catch the train back to the one I was supposed to get off on. Also, they wrote at the back of this paper, that I should use it as a proof at the doors, when exiting the station I was originally supposed to get off on.

That is an 'authority to travel' which is fine. If you still have it - keep it (for at least 6 months or a bit longer)

5) Which train company was this with if you know (eg Thameslink, Great western, Transport for London etc)- Greater Anglia

That's helpful to know - they will not take an unreasonably hard line on this in experience of looking at other threads, but if they write to you it is important you reply

6) which stations were involved (ie where were you travelling from and to, where di you end up when you missed your stop)?- can I write this in private, because I am aware the forum is being monitored?

It doesn't matter if you do not want to say really - mainly helps to know it was Greater Anglia

I have counted and made quite a lot of journeys from different stations since Jan. Sometimes I drive or I am being driven as I am saving cash.

Perfectly reasonable explanation for not always using the train

Often, I buy paper tickets, sometimes paying cash.

They would probably not trace those anyway, in reality

I don't always use my train-line account and I mentioned this to the inspectors. I use the tube.

On the tube do you use contactless or Oyster? If you have not already down so register your card so you can download your journey history on those with the tube. Then access that download and keep a copy of it if you can (eg screenshot) - just so you have info to hand if needed.

If it comes to that, i would happily pay the full amount I am supposed to pay just to save myself from legal proceedings.

@Pushpit thank you for the information, I will definitely take a look. I have never been in situation like this before and I was not sure how to act and what to do. I can’t afford to get criminal record…

I forgot to mention that my student card was a hard copy and wasn’t connected to my online account.

That does not really matter - tho it may help if you can dig out proof of it from your side (in case they loose it) - eg did you ever have a picture of it by any chance? or the receipt from when you bought it (not that I have a picture of my railcard now I think about it and I also have a hard version). It may be handy but it's not vital if you don't have that. Make a note of the exact expiry date if you can recall it - before you forget - now they have withdrawn your out of date card (this is standard practice for hard copy cards if they find out of date ones at an inspection like that so don't worry)

If you can do so, buy a new Railcard ASAP as then you can say, if asked, that you took prompt action to put right your mistake. This is what they want people to do - they don't just want to prosecute people.

Also, the name on my account, doesn’t match my real name as I log in through google email. They scanned my ticket yesterday, so most likely they have got the info needed. Not sure how it works.

Yes, the scan of the ticket will give them the info they need to check your account so it won't make much difference if this is not your real name - given you said you gave them your personal details so assume you gave your real name and correct address - which is actually important as it is better they can contact you than if you make it difficult for them by giving false info.

 

[jane141516]

Thank you so much for this!

I still have one part of the rail card, the one with my picture on it. It has the date too.

Yes, I gave my correct name and address, also DOB. They saw my name on the student card anyway.

On the paper tickets- I do not have any pictures of it; I usually throw them away. No receipts either.



What do you think this ticket was then? A penalty? Or there still a high chance of receiving a letter from them?

In your experience,(if the worst happens), do they prosecute straight away, or give you the chance to respond and settle out of court. I will never buy incorrect ticket again, I can’t put myself through this one more time

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much for this!

I still have one part of the rail card, the one with my picture on it. It has the date too.

Do you mean the date the railcard expired? If so that's helpful

Yes, I gave my correct name and address, also DOB. They saw my name on the student card anyway.

This is all good

On the paper tickets- I do not have any pictures of it; I usually throw them away. No receipts either.

Sorry, I didn't mean paper tickets, I meant the card or plastic railcard, and a receipt for buying that (or a payment that may show on your bank card - unless you bought your Railcard with cash). You would not be expected to keep old paper tickets after they have been used.

On oysters or contactless- I use contactless, or sometimes buy day paper tickets. Whatever works on the day.

If you use contactless then register your contactless payment with TfL so you can access your journey history
via this:

Contactless and Oyster account

It's quick and easy to manage your travel with a contactless and Oyster account

tfl.gov.uk

I am no longer able to get a student card, as I am not in education at the moment. But planning on re-starting again for at least year or two, when I will be looking to obtain one again.

Apols but what 'student railcard' do you mean?

A Railcard is based on age so typically people who are students will have a Railcard like a 16-25 railcard or Perhaps a 26-30 Railcard as detailed here

National Rail Railcards | National Rail

Get 1/3 off your train tickets with a Railcard. From children to seniors, there is a Railcard to suit everyone. Plus information on regional railcards and other forms of concessionary travel

www.nationalrail.co.uk

are you talking about a TfL card for people who are studying / are students?

Until then, I will be buying full Price tickets (the right thing to do) and will try to use my online account as much as possible to prove that I have learned from my mistake. Would that be good enough or I should explore the option of buying a train Card?

What do you mean by a 'train Card' do you mean a Season ticket?

There is no need to buy one of those unless it makes financial sense for you to do so. If you only travel once or twice a week by train then I doubt it would make financial sense for you to buy a Season ticket

Also, I travel by train once or twice week, not sure If a train card would be a good option?

What do you think this ticket was then? The one for £57.20. A penalty?

It looks like a £100 Penalty Fare reduced to £50 for prompt payment (you paid it then and there so that was prompt) plus a £7.50 replacement fare for the journey you made (without knowing between the stations you travelled it's not possible to check what the fare is between those stations, but you can check it - look for the Anytime Single Fare for he journey you made.

Or there still a high chance of receiving a letter from them?

It's hard to know one way or the other. That is why you need to be prepared for it even if it does not happen.

In your experience,(if the worst happens), do they prosecute straight away, or give you the chance to respond

They give you the chance to respond

and settle out of court.

They do not automatically settle out of court (you would have to ask them if they would do that), but there is a very high chance they would if you engaged with them by replying to what they sent, and explain that it was a mistake that you had overlooked the expiry of your railcard, and not an attempt at deliberate fare evasion

I will never buy incorrect ticket again, I can’t put myself through this one more time

If you are ever unsure about your ticket always check with staff before boarding the train - ideally staff in a ticket office not people who staff the gate barriers or flag off the trains on the platform as knowing all the ins and outs of ticket validity is not always their key job

 

[jane141516]

It was a student university card. When you attend Uni, they give you a form that is to be taken to the train ticket till (no matter your age). When you give it to them, they issue you with a train travel card, which I think saves 30% on each journey with a train. Yes, I still have the receipt of purchase. It was stuck in between my rail card, the inspector saw it yesterday. I didn’t even know I had it.

They charged me £57.20. £7.20 is the full cost of the single journey I was completing on the day.

Im hoping this will be the end of it. But I will make sure that I use my online account a lot more and pay full fares from now on. Maybe they will take this into consideration if they decide to take this further

 

[WesternLancer]

It was a student university card. When you attend Uni, they give you a form that is to be taken to the train ticket till (no matter your age). When you give it to them, they issue you with a train travel card, which I think saves 30% on each journey with a train.

Sorry - I don't know what this is. I am only aware of the Railcards I linked to (which include the ability for people who are full time students but over the age of 25 to obtain the 16-25 railcard even if they are over age 25, subject to supplying the official stamped form from the Uni to say they are a full time student). But if you are 25 or under you can have that Railcard without needing a form from a uni. Anyone of the applicable age can have one.

How old are you? over 25?

Yes, I still have the receipt of purchase. It was stuck in between my rail card, the inspector saw it yesterday. I didn’t even know I had it.

That's good

On the contactless- I use 2, sometimes 3 different cards that I have saved on my phone. Not sure that would be very helpful?

It is always advisable to register your contactless cards with TfL so that you can obtain your journey history / see what has been spent and check any if you ever think you have been wrongly charged for a journey

They charged me £57.20. £7.20 is the full cost of the single journey I was completing on the day.

So a Penalty fare and a replacement ticket has almost certainly been charged for.

They should also have given you paperwork (another orange slip) for the Penalty fare telling you about your rights of Appeal etc if you wanted to do that. I don't know what you can do now if they did not do that. have you checked you don't have that elsewhere in a pocket or bag. It's worth you looking just to be sure.

Im hoping this will be the end of it. But I will make sure that I use my online account a lot more and pay full fares from now on. Maybe they will take this into consideration, if they decide to take this further.

They would consider it in the event of taking things further yes, although it is not vital to buy tickets on line if you do not wish to do so.

 

[jane141516]

I am well over 25. I have been reading so much about this in the last 2 days. My head is spinning. I am trying to find out if the worst happens, how long does it take for the conviction to be “spent”. I see something about 11 years, which is so scary. I know I am thinking the worst, but I want to be prepared if things go south…
Also, waiting for 2 months is way too long…

 

[WesternLancer]

I am well over 25. I have been reading so much about this in the last 2 days. My head is spinning. I am trying to find out if the worst happens, how long does it take for the conviction to be “spent”. I see something about 11 years, which is so scary. I know I am thinking the worst, but I want to be prepared if things go south…
Also, waiting for 2 months is way too long…

A. It won’t come to that.

B. For those that do get prosecuted (and hardly anyone who gets advice from here on what to do gets prosecuted apart from cases involving transport for London who prosecute as a matter of standard policy) it’s way shorter than 11 years. I can’t recall correctly but more like 1 year I suspect.

 

[jane141516]

A. It won’t come to that.

B. For those that do get prosecuted (and hardly anyone who gets advice from here on what to do gets prosecuted apart from cases involving transport for London who prosecute as a matter of standard policy) it’s way shorter than 11 years. I can’t recall correctly but more like 1 year I suspect.

Thank you! I will keep you updated and come back for advice if I receive anything.
Have a peaceful evening.

 

[enginedin]

Sorry - I don't know what this is. I am only aware of the Railcards I linked to (which include the ability for people who are full time students but over the age of 25 to obtain the 16-25 railcard even if they are over age 25, subject to supplying the official stamped form from the Uni to say they are a full time student). But if you are 25 or under you can have that Railcard without needing a form from a uni. Anyone of the applicable age can have one.

I think you're talking cross-purposes. I assume @jane141516 is saying the ticket inspector saw her University Student ID card (i.e. the card that would be used to get her into university buildings, and be used as her Library card), rather than anything to do with an actual "student" rail card. I think the terminology is often confused with an 16-25 railcard being referred to by many people as a student railcard

 

[WesternLancer]

I am well over 25.

So I suspect what you have / had is a 16-25 Railcard that you are permitted if a full time student even if over the age of 25 - ie a mature student
as detailed here

Railcards for Mature Students | National Rail

Anyone who is a full-time student is entitled to a Railcard, no matter how old you are. You can get a 16-25 Railcard as a mature student of any age. Find out more and how to apply.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Also, waiting for 2 months is way too long…

Well, they could process things a lot faster if they employed more staff on dealing with these sorts of issues, but the costs of that would then have to be funded by the court costs and admin fees they charge people who they find that have the wrong ticket. So I'd be careful what you wish for...

You are just one of hundreds of people across the UK they stop every day with the wrong ticket / expired railcard / deliberate fare evasion etc etc. You just have to put it behind you and wait to see what happens. It could take more than 2 months, or less, or nothing may happen at all because you had the Penalty Fare.

If they did want to prosecute they have 6 months to bring this before a court, so that creates a deadline for them to contact you (whether they are prosecuting you or not) and it is often said on here that if you have not heard anything by a bit more than 6 months then nothing more will happen.

 

[jane141516]

No, sorry, it was my travel card, for a full time student. I never carry my my Uni ID card.

I only wish that nothing happens. I will keep this thread and come back if i receive anything.

Thank you