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Lnwr will operate to Crewe and then depending on your ticket tfw to Chester or lnwr again to Liverpool. Remember this is only (currently) affecting Avanti.
Ticket acceptance for advances will be highly likely, or refund and buy new tickets - lnwr offer some stupidly cheap tickets to Crewe.
I note the following statement by the Department for Transport which correctly implies that overreliance on rest day working is the cause of this dispute and the solution is to employ enough train managers to end the reliance on rest day working but are they currently recruiting and training enough new train managers for Avanti train services now to end this reliance on rest day working?
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “This is incredibly disappointing news for passengers who would have been hoping to leave strike action in 2024, and we strongly encourage both the RMT and Avanti West Coast to get back around the table and work in good faith to resolve this as quickly as possible.
“As part of our plans to reform the railways, we’re determined to move towards a seven-day working week and end the overreliance on rest day working, giving passengers the certainty and reliability they deserve.”
With all due respect, if you think it’s as easy as saying “just make the trains DOO at this point”, you clearly don’t understand the issues well enough to usefully comment on the subject. DOO cannot be introduced at the drop of a hat, and it opens various (extremely expensive) cans of worms. There are plenty of historical threads on the subject, and this probably isn’t the place to re litigate the matter!
It's not a position I'd often take, but I think the RMT probably do have a point on this one. If the rest day premium was going to be paid out anyway to cover the job with a contingent why not offer it equitably
I’m in a similar (perhaps slightly conflicted?) position with this one. They absolutely have a point, but I personally don’t really see this action as sensible from a PR point of view, especially after the conclusion of the wider dispute in the summer.
I’m glad the Xmas action was stood down, because that really was a recipe for hacking people off, for relatively turgid and unexplainable reasons. I get that Avanti is pretty awful as an employer but, during the main dispute, the RMT were steely about their messaging, cautious around selecting dates that would impact the festive season, and just generally seemed to manage their PR rather better. So I do wonder what has changed since.
Rightly or wrongly there is a lot of frustration in the industry that rest day work deals are being agreed with Drivers to the tune of £600 a shift whilst daft games are played like this covering train manager turns.
Absolutely, and that frustration needs to be addressed. It’s a little hard to see where the DfT are coming from here. Most worryingly of all, there increasingly doesn’t appear to be any evidence of a coherent, pragmatic strategy towards resolving these matters.
Comparing our railway with victorian infrastructure, curved platforms and idiotic passengers run at doors of trains with the Swiss modern railway is like Comparing apples and oranges. Impossible to safely dispatch an 11 car train on the British network under DOO.
Ah yes, Switzerland being where TCB signalling (or equivalent) is universal, many trains have step-free boarding and where passengers are on the whole much better behaved.
Oh, and if Avanti were Swiss, it still wouldn't be DOO.
Yes. Let's just breach employment law let alone union law and see what happens.
Here's a clue. Industrial action and legal action of a level which would bring the entire line to a halt indefinitely - assuming it got that far. More likely would be the dismissal of any executive who enacted that and the government forcibily taking it back into public ownership for it breaking multiple employment laws.
Plus First Group are not stupid enough to want to jeopardise bus contracts or their open access aims by making enemies of the government by law breaking. It's just not happening. Their commercial reputation and long term future is not going to be sacrificed just because you want a load of guards on the dole (which guess what you'll be paying their dole money) for not working their days off.
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Congratulations. You've just caused strike action on ASLEF now. And likely strike action amongst RMT dispatchers too - because let's face it they'll be next up. Playing scorched earth with the staff may sound appealing on Daily Mail island, but the real world consequences would be the entire line shut down indefinitely. Aside from the fact their is no DOO in the contracts of the drivers (and aside from the fact that the drivers won't want the extra liability and responsibility for all it brings / fire and rehire would shut the network down), you'd have to at the very least modify (and if that's not possible) even possibly replace the entire pendolino fleet, plus install numerous infrastructure upgrades to stations and potentially signalling and other systems.
You aren't going to in 2024/5 be able to shove a few cheap mirrors up, and offer the drivers a paltry few quid per DOO train worked, and if someone got dragged under for leaning against the side the train and killed -tell their family it's their own fault, or tell the disabled "don't bother travelling", either.
This isn't some London suburban network in the 80s which can either be done for little cost, or extended (with plenty of very very frought industrial action, legal challenges and associated extensive infastructure costs) as per Southern. And Southern drivers had DOO in their contracts, and vast swathes of that network was already set up for it. Very different to the WCML.
Bringing up what other countries do in isolation is pointless, especially seeing as others have pointed out, that intercity services are not DOO on the Swiss network anyway. Indeed these things have to be considered in not only terms of the infrastructure and equipment in place, but also the culture and laws of the country itself. It may well be that there is much less of an anti-social behavioural problem, or indeed that rail staff aren't potentially liable if passengers get killed being idiots in other nations. Or there may not be the same level of disability discrimination laws. A good example is say policing - the relationship between the police and the public in many European countries is very different than in the UK for example - our police aren't routinely armed and police by consent, where as overseas they can often be paramilitary.
I wouldn't be surprised if it would be far cheaper to recruit enough staff and get Sundays in the working week - rather than pay out the spiralling costs of industrial action / legal challenges / infastructure and rolling stock modifications.
Lnwr will operate to Crewe and then depending on your ticket tfw to Chester or lnwr again to Liverpool. Remember this is only (currently) affecting Avanti.
Ticket acceptance for advances will be highly likely, or refund and buy new tickets - lnwr offer some stupidly cheap tickets to Crewe.
If the journeys you are planning are necessary then I'd go ahead and book available options ASAP as prices will of course rise with other operators. You will have peace of mind that you will be getting to your destination even if it means having to use slower services with changes.
For those that can’t think the economics through for themselves……
In the 30 years of privatisation, the industry hasn’t flooded every station or every train with DOO cameras and monitors, and paid every driver a higher salary for extra responsibility while still paying for an in-train member of staff.
Might that be an expensive bit of dogma??
Oh. And 30 years to move Sundays inside but haven’t. Perhaps thats been cheaper too?
What are the odds of TransPennine Express and TfW Rail trying to discourage Sunday travel between Preston and Carlisle / Crewe and Manchester if the strikes aren't resolved whilst Northern's own Sunday issues are going on?
I note the following statement by the Department for Transport which correctly implies that overreliance on rest day working is the cause of this dispute and the solution is to employ enough train managers to end the reliance on rest day working but are they currently recruiting and training enough new train managers for Avanti train services now to end this reliance on rest day working?
Yes, but it requires more staff to be employed than currently. That is the real problem for the DfT - they don’t like increasing headcount, especially on what they perceive to be an expensively staffed TOC.
In reply to earlier posters, FG are not going to break any employment laws by “doing a P&O” or similar. They are only the TOC management agents for the DfT, they do not have the right (via Avanti) to determine pay and conditions or take that kind of action on their own.
The resolution of this dispute lies with the DfT authorising payments to staff on the same level as they already have for managers doing the same job.
What are the odds of TransPennine Express and TfW Rail trying to discourage Sunday travel between Preston and Carlisle / Crewe and Manchester if the strikes aren't resolved whilst Northern's own Sunday issues are going on?
Yes, but it requires more staff to be employed than currently. That is the real problem for the DfT - they don’t like increasing headcount, especially on what they perceive to be an expensively staffed TOC.
The DfT clearly have to increase the number of Avanti Train Managers to end the reliance on rest day working which the DfT state is their objective. If the DfT do not want to increase the overall Avanti headcount as they perceive Avanti to be an expensively staffed TOC the only solution I can see is for the DfT to reduce the number of catering staff on Avanti train services by reducing or ending catering on Avanti train services as other train operators have done.
Yes, but it requires more staff to be employed than currently. That is the real problem for the DfT - they don’t like increasing headcount, especially on what they perceive to be an expensively staffed TOC.
In reply to earlier posters, FG are not going to break any employment laws by “doing a P&O” or similar. They are only the TOC management agents for the DfT, they do not have the right (via Avanti) to determine pay and conditions or take that kind of action on their own.
The resolution of this dispute lies with the DfT authorising payments to staff on the same level as they already have for managers doing the same job.
There has to be something in this specifically regarding Avanti though - EMR guards (both regional and Intercity) voted yesterday to accept new rest day arrangements which including payments to managers being capped at the same as payment to those in the grade with a specific exception for during strike action.
the only solution I can see is for the DfT to reduce the number of catering staff on Avanti train services by reducing or ending catering on Avanti train services as other train operators have done.
The DfT clearly have to increase the number of Avanti Train Managers to end the reliance on rest day working which the DfT state is their objective. If the DfT do not want to increase the overall Avanti headcount as they perceive Avanti to be an expensively staffed TOC the only solution I can see is for the DfT to reduce the number of catering staff on Avanti train services by reducing or ending catering on Avanti train services as other train operators have done.
A likely fallout from this is a reduction in the hours that first class operates with catering on Avanti, or the hours it operates at all - very early and very late trains may lose their offer, with the first class section demoted to Standard Premium.
What's the relevance of this exactly? It's been explained to you more than once that you can't just suddenly make a whole TOC DOO when it is not set up to be operated that way. End of story.
I'd call that DCO, it doesn't run without stewards (though I realise technically it's still DOO because the driver operates the actual train in full). Are they considered safety critical, I forget?
There are certainly other countries where the other on-board members of staff don't control the doors, but that wasn't really where I was going, I was more thinking of countries where intercity* trains run with just a driver, and I can't think of one.
* In its usual meaning, I'm not thinking of the District Line which is of course technically inter-city, nor of the likes of Thameslink which connects multiple cities and runs DOO but is a commuter service in operational style
Why can’t some catering staff be trained to carry out a dual role in times of need?. TOC to Have an agreement with RMT along the lines of only used to cover a TM turn if the alternative is to cancel the train.
Yes, but it requires more staff to be employed than currently. That is the real problem for the DfT - they don’t like increasing headcount, especially on what they perceive to be an expensively staffed TOC.
In reply to earlier posters, FG are not going to break any employment laws by “doing a P&O” or similar. They are only the TOC management agents for the DfT, they do not have the right (via Avanti) to determine pay and conditions or take that kind of action on their own.
The resolution of this dispute lies with the DfT authorising payments to staff on the same level as they already have for managers doing the same job.
Surely the resolution of the dispute lies with either (1) recruiting enough TMs so that RDW is not required, or (2) changing T&Cs to being Sundays into the working week. Neither of which will be quick / easy. But until one of these is done, the RMT will continue to hold the trump hand and can threaten strike action / work to rule whenever it feels like it
Surely the resolution of the dispute lies with either (1) recruiting enough TMs so that RDW is not required, or (2) changing T&Cs to being Sundays into the working week. Neither of which will be quick / easy. But until one of these is done, the RMT will continue to hold the trump hand and can threaten strike action / work to rule whenever it feels like it
To be fair you can still strike on Sundays, just as Avanti are doing, you just have to ballot for it. This isn't a withdrawal of voluntary Sundays, it's an actual strike which was balloted for. Avanti have committed Sundays, the RDW issue here is other rest days.
Why can’t some catering staff be trained to carry out a dual role in times of need?. TOC to Have an agreement with RMT along the lines of only used to cover a TM turn if the alternative is to cancel the train.
I'd call that DCO, it doesn't run without stewards (though I realise technically it's still DOO because the driver operates the actual train in full). Are they considered safety critical, I forget?
There are certainly other countries where the other on-board members of staff don't control the doors, but that wasn't really where I was going, I was more thinking of countries where intercity* trains run with just a driver, and I can't think of one.
* In its usual meaning, I'm not thinking of the District Line which is of course technically inter-city
Are the “Stewards” not Rules-trained? In which case, surely DCO - driver controlled, but with another competent person on board. As per the original SWR 701 plans.
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