Is there a way to improve the flow of services via Chinley?

[Trainman40083]

Moderator note: Split from

Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

I imagine freight trains have timetables just like passenger trains, and only get changed at certain times, else the trains could conflict along the route. Maybe the new loop allows for extra trains that are yet to run. Indeed. There has of course been such a change and is another in a few...

www.railforums.co.uk

I still, bringing this thread back to life a bit, can't imagine the idea that anyone would ever think a 4th passenger train per hour with the current set up is a good idea.

The Chinley junctions are an absolute nightmare with their slow line speeds and the absolute block to/from Edale and the freight rarely actually manages to achieve it's scheduled running times, usually because the Northern stopper running late causes it to stop/start on the gradients.

I cannot remember the last time I worked a train that wasn't 15 minutes late into Stockport because it left Sheffield on time and then got stuck at Edale waiting for something to crawl round to Peak Forest, usually itself been delayed by the Northern stopper either having been held for TPE or lost time itself, then setting off the chain of getting stuck at Hazel Grove behind the train from Buxton, Slade Lane behind the Chester and the Barrow/Windermere and then messing up the CLC local train as well as that gets held at Oxford Road or Glazebrook.

It's deeply tedious and if I never had to work a train on the route with the current schedule again it would be a delight - for a perfect working example check out 2S81 1214 Sheffield - Man Picc today losing time en route with apparently slow station work, delaying the following freight bound for Tunstead and trashing the EMR 1R66 0856 Norwich - Liverpool which left Sheffield on time.

You sum it up perfectly... Add in lack of capacity at Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield. If only fast trains, that do not stop had another route.

 

[takethegame]

I still, bringing this thread back to life a bit, can't imagine the idea that anyone would ever think a 4th passenger train per hour with the current set up is a good idea.

The Chinley junctions are an absolute nightmare with their slow line speeds and the absolute block to/from Edale and the freight rarely actually manages to achieve it's scheduled running times, usually because the Northern stopper running late causes it to stop/start on the gradients.

I cannot remember the last time I worked a train that wasn't 15 minutes late into Stockport because it left Sheffield on time and then got stuck at Edale waiting for something to crawl round to Peak Forest, usually itself been delayed by the Northern stopper either having been held for TPE or lost time itself, then setting off the chain of getting stuck at Hazel Grove behind the train from Buxton, Slade Lane behind the Chester and the Barrow/Windermere and then messing up the CLC local train as well as that gets held at Oxford Road or Glazebrook.

It's deeply tedious and if I never had to work a train on the route with the current schedule again it would be a delight - for a perfect working example check out 2S81 1214 Sheffield - Man Picc today losing time en route with apparently slow station work, delaying the following freight bound for Tunstead and trashing the EMR 1R66 0856 Norwich - Liverpool which left Sheffield on time.

Obviously money would be required, but is it physically possible to improve upon the slow line speeds at Chinley? I presume removal of the absolute block to/from Edale would be possible. If both can be achieved, how much benefit for there be to journey times/capacity?

 

[Discuss223]

You sum it up perfectly... Add in lack of capacity at Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield. If only fast trains, that do not stop had another route.

There is a route via Chapeltown & Penistone, with a reverse at Huddersfield. Using that way would certainly free up paths for more services calling at small stations along the Hope Valley that do see a lot of footfall, despite being in lowly populated areas (tourism spots).

 

[edwin_m]

Obviously money would be required, but is it physically possible to improve upon the slow line speeds at Chinley? I presume removal of the absolute block to/from Edale would be possible. If both can be achieved, how much benefit for there be to journey times/capacity?

I doubt there is much scope to do anything. The east to west and east to south curve radii are quite tight, The third side of the triangle (the original main line) is straighter, but the west junction needs to be laid out to avoid slowing the predominant flow of east-west traffic any more than the curve does. Lengthening the west junction for higher speeds would push it up to a long curve, so the crossover would have to go well west of the station.

 

[Justin Smith]

There is a route via Chapeltown & Penistone, with a reverse at Huddersfield. Using that way would certainly free up paths for more services calling at small stations along the Hope Valley that do see a lot of footfall, despite being in lowly populated areas (tourism spots).

Ahh, there used to be a route via, a mainline route in fact, where was it ?
Ah yes, Woodhead.....

 

[eastwestdivide]

There is a route via Chapeltown & Penistone, with a reverse at Huddersfield. Using that way would certainly free up paths for more services calling at small stations along the Hope Valley that do see a lot of footfall, despite being in lowly populated areas (tourism spots).

It's 25 mins on a fast Man Vic just to Huddersfield, followed by a reversal and a slow, part single track line to Sheffield. I can't see that being an attractive fast service
Edited to add: ...when the existing fasts are ~55 mins between Manchester and Sheffield, twice an hour with a useful connection at Stockport.

 

[Tim_UK]

There is a route via Chapeltown & Penistone, with a reverse at Huddersfield. Using that way would certainly free up paths for more services calling at small stations along the Hope Valley that do see a lot of footfall, despite being in lowly populated areas (tourism spots).

Chapeltown & Penistone to Huddersfield. It's a lot of single track, and the current hourly stopping service uses the whole capacity. There were in the past some peak time additional services, but these had to run to/from Leeds via platform 4 In Huddersfield. I don't think the current Huddersfield works does anything to fix this.


Replacing the curve in Horbury, and Sheffield, Mirfield, Huddersfield, Manchester as a regular (but slower) route might be more useful. Offers a decent backup. Services have run this way before during engineering work, but via Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[fishwomp]

Chapeltown & Penistone to Huddersfield. It's a lot of single track, and the current hourly stopping service uses the whole capacity. There were in the past some peak time additional services, but these had to run to/from Leeds via platform 4 In Huddersfield. I don't think the current Huddersfield works does anything to fix this.


Replacing the curve in Horbury, and Sheffield, Mirfield, Huddersfield, Manchester as a regular (but slower) route might be more useful. Offers a decent backup. Services have run this way before during engineering work, but via Wakefield Kirkgate.

There is already a scheduled (SO) via Wakefield and Huddersfield:

Realtime Trains | 1B59 0320 Sheffield to Manchester Airport | 21/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1B59 0320 departure from Sheffield to Manchester Airport on 21/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Not the fastest route - goes up Nunnery and along to Rotherham C, total journey time is 90 mins - but probably also usual slow overnight timings

Reopening Crigglestone curve would allow a via Barnsley routing, I guess saving a few mins

 

[Starmill]

There is a route via Chapeltown & Penistone, with a reverse at Huddersfield. Using that way would certainly free up paths for more services calling at small stations along the Hope Valley that do see a lot of footfall, despite being in lowly populated areas (tourism spots).

A non-stop train between Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly, via Penistone and Huddersfield?

 

[Starmill]

I doubt there is much scope to do anything. The east to west and east to south curve radii are quite tight, The third side of the triangle (the original main line) is straighter, but the west junction needs to be laid out to avoid slowing the predominant flow of east-west traffic any more than the curve does. Lengthening the west junction for higher speeds would push it up to a long curve, so the crossover would have to go well west of the station.

It does seem a very restrictive area to get any improvement, but then when you're trying to accommodate stone trains around DMUs stopping every 5-10 minutes and expresses at 90 then fundamentally that'll probably be difficult no matter what you do. Perhaps finally removing the AB sections will help, in another decade or two it will happen naturally anyway as the old boxes become life expired.

 

[The Planner]

You will always have the constraint of Totley tunnel, which is a 6 or 7 minute section for the heavy freight.

 

[nr758123]

There is a route via Chapeltown & Penistone, with a reverse at Huddersfield. Using that way would certainly free up paths for more services calling at small stations along the Hope Valley that do see a lot of footfall, despite being in lowly populated areas (tourism spots).

I'm in favour of more services calling at "small" stations. If there is any spare capacity between Huddersfield and Manchester, then using it to enable a more frequent service at the intermediate stations along the route (Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Mossley, the first three of which have a lot of tourist footfall at weekends) has to have a much higher priority than using it to enable more stopping services along the Hope Valley.

The idea of removing services from a congested route only to divert them slowly along two other routes where there is even less spare capacity, is a complete non-starter.

 

[Discuss223]

I'm in favour of more services calling at "small" stations. If there is any spare capacity between Huddersfield and Manchester, then using it to enable a more frequent service at the intermediate stations along the route (Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Mossley, the first three of which have a lot of tourist footfall at weekends) has to have a much higher priority than using it to enable more stopping services along the Hope Valley.

The idea of removing services from a congested route only to divert them slowly along two other routes where there is even less spare capacity, is a complete non-starter.

I see your point but also, the Hope Valley stopping services could do with being increased, despite their small size, Edale, Hathersage and even Chinley to an extent have a strong demand for services and I think a stopping service running to the local stations, doesn't need to go right to Manchester, would be advantageous and I am sure would be welcomed by Derbyshire CC. The Penistone line may be a slower route to Manchester and Liverpool but the time saved reversing EMR services at Sheffield and from the avoidance of the bottle necks around Stockport would mitigate that.

 

[Bevan Price]

Having visited the Hope Valley on numerous occasions (to photograph trains), I don't think there is sufficient demand to justify more than an hourly off-peak stopping service. Some stations, especially Edale may justify additional stops at Summer weekends, due to big use by ramblers, etc. There may also be some demand for peak hour additionals.