London Bridge : Train hit buffers 13/12/24

[Surreytraveller]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that if I were you.

Fair enough. I didn't realise they all went on ticketing courses.
I suppose you're going to tell me they all know about railway operations too?

 

[Tetchytyke]

There's seemingly a lot of distrust between railway staff and the police because of a couple of high-profile incidents in the north west.

I'm sure the reasons why the driver was arrested will come out in due course. But- without wishing to speculate- either there is additional information about the circumstances that isn't in the public domain or the police have waded into a simple operational matter with their size 10s just because they were there.

 

[357]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that if I were you.

I would. They are a liability 99% of the time they are around and regularly go onto the line without permission or correct PPE.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The BTP have history of getting involved. Perishable evidence has been lost in prior incidents because the police don't know what they're doing.

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I would. They are a liability 99% of the time they are around and regularly go onto the line without permission or correct PPE.

Or telling the railway they're clear of the line (although ambulance services tend to be worse)

 

[185]

Fair enough. I didn't realise they all went on ticketing courses.

They may have done. Seems a substantial percentage were off sick for that course, or forgotten...

A couple of years ago, two BTP officers in were spoken to, in relation to how they dealt with an aggressive person, repeatedly using JCP 50% discounted tickets. The officers were asked by staff to detain the male and obtain his details which he had persistently refused to give. The staff left the two officers with the male in the expectation the matter would be dealt with.

- The male was found the following day on yet another 50% JCP discounted ticket, so the matter was chased up with BTP Control and the Inspector for the area concerned. The two officers had boxed off the incident, typing up "staff claimed male presented child ticket but when questioned showed an adult one". A further check showed one officer at the time had noted down "passenger using an unauthorised 50% discount and abusive to staff every day for several months and refused details." - rather the opposite of what was typed up afterwards.

Some good officers at BTP. Many bad ones.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The BTP have history of getting involved. Perishable evidence has been lost in prior incidents because the police don't know what they're doing.

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Or telling the railway they're clear of the line (although ambulance services tend to be worse)

So no actual facts of the matter then? Just some assumptions because "BTP have a history"?

 

[Surreytraveller]

So no actual facts of the matter then? Just some assumptions because "BTP have a history"?

If you read railway accident reports, details will be found therein

 

[MotCO]

Is there any actual confirmation that it was the driver who was arrested? And, if it was, that BTP acted improperly in arresting him before he had been med-screened or any other reasonable grounds for arrest had been identified? Or are we just slagging off BTP and making assumptions?

I'm wondering that. It could be someone on the platform causing a distraction (e.g. laser lights shone in driver's face), or someone in the cab with the driver causing a distraction, or someone trying to enter the cab from the train, again causing a distraction. Let's not jump to conclusions.

 

[Lewisham2221]

If you read railway accident reports, details will be found therein

None of which will yet explain who was actually arrested (was it the driver? someone on the platform?), or why the BTP thought they had grounds to arrest them, in this particular incident.

 

[skyhigh]

If you read railway accident reports, details will be found therein

Has there been a report published into this incident then?

 

[Surreytraveller]

None of which will yet explain who was actually arrested (was it the driver? someone on the platform?), or why the BTP thought they had grounds to arrest them, in this particular incident.

Have you got any facts?

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Has there been a report published into this incident then?

Not yet, no. Just a statement from the BTP they've arrested someone

 

[skyhigh]

Have you got any facts?

As far as I can tell, the only information is that in the first post. Other than that, we're all just speculating.

 

[Meole]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that if I were you.

Surely BTP have some railway related training ?

 

[Surreytraveller]

As far as I can tell, the only information is that in the first post. Other than that, we're all just speculating.

Which is what an internet forum is for.

Perhaps we should be grateful that there is nothing for the BTP to investigate, because of TPWS, the crash worthiness of the stock, and the fact the buffers safely brought the train to a stand. Assuming there were no injuries (I'm sure we would have heard if there were)

 

[Lewisham2221]

Have you got any facts?

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Not yet, no. Just a statement from the BTP they've arrested someone

No, which is why I asked if anyone else had any facts, besides those in the initial post.

Instead, there's just a load of wibble about BTP having history and knowing nothing about tickets

 

[Discuss223]

Which is what an internet forum is for.

Perhaps we should be grateful that there is nothing for the BTP to investigate, because of TPWS, the crash worthiness of the stock, and the fact the buffers safely brought the train to a stand. Assuming there were no injuries (I'm sure we would have heard if there were)

Is it known if there is any damage to the rolling stock?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Is it known if there is any damage to the rolling stock?

No idea. Someone upthread said something about the corridor I think.
Be surprised if there wasn't any damage, even if the sacrificial coupler will need replacing. And other parts of the train are designed to absorb impacts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2024 ==

No, which is why I asked if anyone else had any facts, besides those in the initial post.

Instead, there's just a load of wibble about BTP having history and knowing nothing about tickets

Have you got any evidence to the contrary?
You missed my comment on them not knowing one end of a truncheon from the other. That was a joke - I'm sure they know how to use a truncheon.

 

[Horizon22]

either there is additional information about the circumstances that isn't in the public domain

This is almost certainly the case. The BTP arresting a member of rail staff is highly unusual.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Is it known if there is any damage to the rolling stock?

From what I saw just looked like the bottom end of the gangway was compressed in-between the front of the train and the buffers.

 

[MrJeeves]

The BTP arresting a member of rail staff is highly unusual.

To be fair, we don't even know for certain it was rail staff that was arrested. That too appears to just be speculation!

If it was a passenger banging on the driver's cab door, or someone shining a bright flashlight at the driver from the platform, I assume either of these could potentially result in an arrest for endangerment on the railway (I think that's S34 Offences against the Person Act 1861 based on the description?).

 

[Horizon22]

To be fair, we don't even know for certain it was rail staff that was arrested. That too appears to just be speculation!

This is true. Causing a distraction to a driver enough so that they lose concentration and situation awareness (like the examples mentioned) would certainly cause endangerment.

 

[Surreytraveller]

From what I saw just looked like the bottom end of the gangway was compressed in-between the front of the train and the buffers.

The force of the collision (no idea what speed the train was doing) would have been distributed throughout the length of the train. Damage may have been done between the couplings of the other vehicles. TPWS is designed to ensure the train is not travelling above a predetermined speed, with the buffers designed to bring the train to a stand below that speed (which they obviously did).
If the train wasn't designed to absorb energy in this way, you could easily have fatalities. Look at Cannon Street 1991 as an example.

 

[ChristopherJ]

My two pence, given the limited details.

1) the driver hit the buffers which is classed as an operational incident, was given a mandatory D&A test and failed it. Arrested for being in control of a vehicle under the influence of drink or drugs.

2) a third party gained unauthorised access to the driving cab with a drivers key (hello Ebay) and took malicious control of the train.

Railway staff being arrested is rare but not impossible. It was only a few years ago a (ironically also) GTR driver crashed his Class 455 in Selhurst Depot, knew he would fail the D&A and did a runner from the depot. Was caught further up the road in Southern uniform holding a bottle of plonk.

 

[Surreytraveller]

To be fair, we don't even know for certain it was rail staff that was arrested. That too appears to just be speculation!

Going to go out on a limb and suggest, if it wasn't rail staff, the press release would have said so. What they don't say is as important as what they do!

 

[Falcon1200]

BTP don't know anything about tickets, let alone railway operations.

I suppose you're going to tell me they all know about railway operations too?

That is rather unfair, the BT Police certainly have a far better understanding of railway operations, and just as importantly the railway's requirements when an incident occurs, than local Police. The main issue being their lack of numbers and distribution, so often local Police are on site long before the BTP.

The BTP arresting a member of rail staff is highly unusual.

Indeed, I don't recall it happening for an operational incident without some additional factor being involved.

 

[nuts & bolts]

From the link in the OP:

Unless the statement is false, they say that officers were called to the collision, not that they were already there. So is it actually reported anywhere that isn't what happened?

BTP have a base at London Bridge Station.

 

[357]

the BT Police certainly have a far better understanding of railway operations, and just as importantly the railway's requirements when an incident occurs, than local Police.

Mr Bobby has a better understanding than Mr Bean.

 

[Russel]

Mr Bobby has a better understanding than Mr Bean.

A sad, but accurate reflection of Policing in the UK.

 

[father_jack]

Railway staff being arrested is rare but not impossible. It was only a few years ago a (ironically also) GTR driver crashed his Class 455 in Selhurst Depot, knew he would fail the D&A and did a runner from the depot. Was caught further up the road in Southern uniform holding a bottle of plplonk.

Snipped....
Back in the day an ex Wessex train guard (not long after it was taken into FGW) was removed from a train down west in mid diagram in a terrible drunken mess, the amazing thing was the on call manager of the time who spent more of their time sacking people than hiring them tried to shush it up but the feds were called

 

[CC 72100]

Indeed, I don't recall it happening for an operational incident without some additional factor being involved.

Yeah I tried to make that point earlier on but got shot down...