if you personally held the Crosscountry Franchise, what would you do?

[Blindtraveler]

We all seam to like Bashing XC for pritty much everything they do and there are many threads on here that do that job very well but what I'm wondering is what you'd do to improve things/keep the same if you, in the relms of deap fantacy were charged with running and revitalising XC?


personally, I know we can't blame them for the vomiters but if money was no object I'd bring in a cupple of MK2 plus DVT plus class 67 sets to cover for a year or so whilst each one of the voyagers was gutted back to the shell internally and rebuilt to a spec appropriate to the network - this would include fewer disabled loos and the removal of as many smells as possible from them, more luggage space, the reintroduction of a buffet service, more seating including tipups and grab rails in vestibules and a bit of thought into how the interiors could be less rattly as a result of engine noise.

the 22x classes can work as EMT/MML have proved and the rebuild would use many of the lessons learned from the innicial construction.

theres no denying routes would at times still be over capacity so during the rebuild programme I would order and insert the panto coaches and also extra vehicles for the 4 coach sets so that all units were 6 car, meaning 12 car with SDO could be employed on the core runs

all this would go a good way to solving crouding and therefore as stated in other threads hoefuly bring down tiket prices.

a better level of first class service would be offered and I'd also take a good look at routes where the voyagers speed capabilitty was not being used fully and explore the possibilitty of turbostars, built/refurbished to a high density high qualitty spec could be used instead freeing up more voyagers for the core.

I'd also take a look at the longest runs e.g. Scotland Penzance and ensure that HSTS were used here and trial a first/standard restaurant service on these for customers going end to end making it a more attractive option.

the network as a whole seams punctual enough, but this would naturally be looked at to ensure people were getting the best.

OK feel free to tare me to bits on this and put forward your own sugestions.

thanks.

 

[Zoe]

How are you going to get the dft to agree to this?

 

[WestCoast]

If we are talking fantasy island, I'd cascade Voyagers to inter-regional operations like Liverpool - Norwich, and Transpennine which would push 185s/170s/158s onto more regional services. Then I'd have HSTs and 7-car Meridians running the whole XC operation, with potential for new push-pull stock in future to replace the HSTs.

 

[gordonthemoron]

and get in ICE-TDs

 

[Yew]

Voyagers;

In an ideal situation, I would extend to a more HST-ey format. Moving the Generators/ a new generator in the end cars, that then provides the power for electric motors along the train (hence solving the noise problems and the low capacity)

In the longer cars, the Large disabled Loos would be less of an issue, however maybe one of them could be converted to use the space towards a kitchen/buffet thing (probably in the newly built cars to ease refurbishment costs)

Ive not seen voyager interiors personally, so I dont know if seats/interior styling coulb do with change.

in the short term, I would use the HST's on busier routes, even if its at a cost of journey times (due to different acceleration speeds of HST's vs voyagers)

Maybe sleeper stock could be modified to compartment stock? and replace a first class carriage on HST's, then the replaced carriages cascaded into a loco hauled service (heritage traction? the prototype HST?) To add a little more capacity

 

[Grimsby town]

I'd like split the cross country route into cross country express and cross country local both running hourly on the core route, Edinburgh to Bristol. The fast service could be using a 225 when it was electrified and would call at Edinburgh,Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham, Cheltenham and Bristol parkway and temple meads. The slower would use voygers with panto coaches and would be similar to now a days but with more regular calls at smaller stations.

 

[duffman82]

Extend all Voyagers to 7 car's, Reinstate the Buffet. And do as many suggest create a XC Express service and a XC Local service to speed up train times!

 

[Masbroughlad]

Put a buffet on board and a Bistro car.

 

[codenamecuebal]

I don't get the XC hate. I used an XC service from Glasgow-Edinburgh and the carriage was clean, didn't smell or anything and was actually pretty confortable.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would make two changes to XC if I were in charge. 1) Extend all 220/221s to 7 car length with the new vehicles including the necessary equipment to enable the Voyagers to operate off of overhead wires where available. 2) Some interior changes a) remove several of the disabled toilets (not all) and replace with more normal sized toilets and use the space for luggage and b) reinstate the buffet to enable some form of hot food to be purchased in standard (even if it's only microwaved) and hopefully improve the stocks of refreshments available.

 

[Zoe]

remove several of the disabled toilets

I seem to remember Arriva wanted to do this but were for some reason unable to. It may have been a structural issue but not sure though.

 

[chris89]

I don't hate XC i just prefer to use VT to travel to edinburgh as miles quicker.

But what i would do like others extend the Voyager fleet to a minuium of 7 coaches, re-add the shop and make them Dual mode so they use the OHL whilst on the ECML and around Birmingham etc.

Next i would go on and do what one of VT's plans were and build new coaching stock with DVT & a single ended verison of the class 67 but with a 'flat end' next to the coaching stock.

Also same as well as others remove a disabled toilet or two, to extend the seating and to create bigger luggage areas that would be badly needed.

Chris

 

[Blindtraveler]

yes this simply fantacy island. Loving the ideas esp yours west coast and xc express/locals great too though i?d run fast from newcastle to york and from sheffield to bhm. Als add east mids parkway and leicester to the network served from scotland - great for holidaymakers, curry lovers and students!

 

[Zoe]

Next i would go on and do what one of VT's plans were and build new coaching stock with DVT & a single ended verison of the class 67 but with a 'flat end' next to the coaching stock.

That was ruled out quite early on as I believe it would have left Virgin without a uniform fleet.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I seem to remember Arriva wanted to do this but were for some reason unable to. It may have been a structural issue but not sure though.

bet you a fiver it was an accounting issue! Maybe if anyone knows?

 

[chris89]

That was ruled out quite early on as I believe it would have left Virgin without a uniform fleet.

Most companies already don't have a Uniform fleet though. Also wouldn't be supprised if DFT had a say at all though. It would be a better method and most likely more efficent then have XC using HSTs as this is 'what if'

What would your ideas be?

Chris

 

[Zoe]

Also wouldn't be supprised if DFT had a say at all though.

The dft actually do have quite a say under the current system and I can't see them allowing anything to be changed. The dft have been in direct control since 2005 and haven't done anything about it.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't get the XC hate. I used an XC service from Glasgow-Edinburgh and the carriage was clean, didn't smell or anything and was actually pretty confortable.

That's not the core, overcrowded section of XC, and it is a reasonably short journey too. They do smell in the vestibules at times, I have experienced it a number of times when I have been forced to stand next to the toilet.

 

[Aictos]

If this was possible, I would certainly look into refurbishing the 220s/221s and have a similar specification to the 222s, while this was ongoing I would open talks with Bombardier to strengthen both fleet to 9 cars including a coach fitted with a pantograph.

While this was ongoing, I would lease a spare HST set or two from other TOCs to use with the Cross Country HSTs to bolster the core of the network which to me is Bristol to Newcastle via Birmingham New Street.

I would review this after the Voyagers/Super Voyagers were fully refurbished.

I would also look into other operators taking up some of the stops currently served by Cross Country which has a decent local service already, this would be done in order to reduce journey times and make the service more attractive to all by no longer being a relief stopper on long trips but rather be the express that it is supposed to be.

I would also look into the potential of a South West to Scotland Sleeper avoiding London, this would run in both directions from Sunday to Friday only as the existing sleepers do.

If LHCS were viable I would be interested but it would depend on a number of factors.

I would also have a batch of 379s done for the Birmingham to Stansted services but that would highly depend on the diesel islands along the route being wired up, the spare 170s would then be used to bolster other local XC services or to other operators.

 

[Blindtraveler]

if you did a Scotland - southwest sleaper, would you then scrub some of the longer daytime runs e.g aberdeen to penzance, offering a choice of cabbins and budget recliners? This to me makes sense as tìs long journey is a strain on anybody and I know reveral who do it end to end. May be worth running th via WCML to restore the connection to carlisle lost in 07.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well.
I think i'd extend all the 5 car voyagers to 8 car (maybe 9 or 10 as allows). with 2 first and 6 standard but including shop in standard calss next to first. Remove some disabled toilets to improve luggage and bike provision(inc pantograph car). These would operate the long distance IC routes making much more limited stops.
The 4 car voyagers would work in pairs on the core route. the would operate between bristol/reading (join at new street) to sheffield (split) then to go newcastle via doncaster and edinburgh via leeds. These would all be voyager operated and do most/all stops to use their fantastic acceleration pantograph car added of course. These would be for the more local traveller so would no have shops keep trolley but give more luggae space.
may get killed for this but HST's would be removed and transfered to another operator (im thinking chiltern to support there Loco hauled stock)

The new stock i would order would be IEP 8 car bimode. I dont know numbers though.

so services would be,

Reading/bristol - newcastle/edinburgh
Plymouth - Edinburgh (with extensions but in express form will not be a local train operator)
Manchester picadilly - bristol temple meads with some extended to paington.
Manchester picadilly - bournemouth via southampton.
All turbostar routes left as they are for now try to increase capcity if possible with more 170's

I would try to put liverpool back on the XC map but not entirely sure how yet. I may run it north to scotland. I am also toying with the idea of sending bi modes to holyhead to replace virgin service. so elecrification to chester is easier as no need to worry about onward connnections.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Forget the Voyagers, extend the 170s!!!

 

[43106]

If Phil Hammond had a car accident that gave him temporary brain damage, and gave me XC on a plate, I would...
A) Get rid of ALL Voyagers, and replace them with HSTs, or replacements for them. The Nottingham - Cardiff services (plus the turborats) can also go.
B) Surrender the following...

1. MOST services north of Newcastle, and hand them over to East Coast, so that there's a 2tph service between Edinburgh and Kings Cross. Certainly let EC have the Edinburgh - Glasgow Central service,
2. ALL services west of Plymouth, and transfer them to FGW,
3. half of the Manchester - Birmingham service, and hand the slots over to local-ish EMUs.

Now the good news...
C) Re-introduce Liverpool - Birmingham - beyond services. Gving them away to LM was idiotic.
D) Re-route about 25% of the services between Bristol & Birmingham and have Birmingham - Cardiff (- Swansea?) services running from York.
E) Re-introduce Reading - Paddington, - Brighton and - Portsmouth services.
F) Take over VTs and TPEs services from Manchester and Birmingham to Scotland.
G) Introduce a service (say every 6 hours) on the lines of Birmingham - Crewe - Preston - Carlisle - Motherwell - Coatbridge - Stirling - Perth. One train a day extends to Aberdeen via Dundee, with another daily extension to Inverness. The latter mimics The Clansman, to some extent, which should never have been withdrawn.
Right, that's what I'd do with XC. There isn't a chance in hell that ANY of it will be implemented, but who cares? That's what I would want to do with XC.

 

[Failed Unit]

Forget the Voyagers, extend the 170s!!!

4 cars would be useful at many times of the day, but I understand that they are empty at other times of the day. At the very minimum make them all 3 car.

As for the timetable assuming that we can buy as much stock as possible

Edinburgh - Plymouth
Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth

Edinburgh - Poole
Edinburgh, Dunbar, Berwick-On-Tweed, Alnmouth, Morpeth, Cramlington, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton-on-Trent, Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, Bassingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport, Southampton, Bournemouth

Glasgow - Reading
Glasgow, Motherwell, Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Oxford, Reading

Manchester - Bristol
Manchester, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads

An EMU operated Blackpool - Birmingham and Manchester - Birmingham maybe splitting at Crewe to save paths

Turbo routes (with some takeover from EMT and London Midland)
Stansted Airport - Shrewsbury
Stansted Airport, Cambridge, Ely, March, Peterborough, Leicester, Nuneaton, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford, Wellington, Shrewsbury

Ipswich - Hereford
Ipswich, Stowmarket, Bury St Edmunds, Ely, March, Whittlesea, Peterborough, Stamford, Oakham, Melton Mowbray, Leicester, Narborough, Hinkley, Nuneaton, Colsall Parkway, Birmingham New Street, University, Bromsgrove, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Foregate St, onwards to Hereford

Nottingham - Cardiff
Nottingham, Derby, Burton on Trent, Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Newport, Cardiff

Cleethorpes - Bristol Temple Meads
Cleethorpes, Grimsby Town, Habrough, Barnetby, Market Rasen, Lincoln, Newark Castle, Nottingham, Beeston, Long Eaton, Derby, Willington, Burton-On-Trent, Tamworth, Wilnetcote, Birmingham New Street, University, Bromsgrove, Worcester Shrub Hill, Ashchurch, Cheltenham, Gloucester, Cam, Yate, Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads

Skegness - Birmingham New Street
Skegness, Wainfleet, Boston, Heckington, Sleaford, Grantham, Nottingham, Beeston, East Midlands Parkway, Loughborough, all stations to Birmingham

 

[Zoe]

Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Derby, Birmingham, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth

You need a Newton Abbot stop or you end up with all the Torbay passengers packing onto pacers from Exeter in addition to the passengers using the pacer for the local service. As discussed on the other thread, routing the longest service via Leeds isnt' helpful as it adds a fair bit to journey time.

 

[tbtc]

I guess the question is this:

Would you be happy if XC continued to run the same routes/ frequencies/ stops, but with a train more like an extended 180/ a HST/ a 225?

...or. in other words...

Is the problem just the short trains (and all the problems associated with them e.g toilets, lack of shop, standing passengers, not enough "spare" capacity to allow bargain fares, no hot food, little luggage space)? Or do we need a rejig of the whole operation?

I mentioned some of the options for structural change on the "other" thread (getting rid of the "X", passing some "local" stations/ links to other TOCS, beefing up other TOC services to complement XC, chopping some services at Birmingham etc), but do we want these? Or do we just want bigger better trains?

 

[Failed Unit]

You need a Newton Abbot stop or you end up with all the Torbay passengers packing onto pacers from Exeter in addition to the passengers using the pacer for the local service. As discussed on the other thread, routing the longest service via Leeds isnt' helpful as it adds a fair bit to journey time.

Maybe extend the other Bristol service to Torquay

The problem is Leeds is a big market which is why XC want to route all their services that way. Although I think that would be a mistake, it is a shame they can't do both and have 1/2 hourly Brum - Leeds and the service via Doncaster.

I think even now XC don't expect to get Edinburgh - Birmingham passengers as they will use the West Coast route, so they are going for Edinburgh -Leeds.

The only real losers with the via Leeds route are the Edinburgh - Sheffield & Derby passengers. Newcastle & York passengers would use the Doncaster service like they do now.

 

[Zoe]

Maybe extend the other Bristol service to Torquay

In that case you can also cut Taunton from the fast service. That said Newton Abbot isn't the largest of places but has a fairly wide catchment area. Line speed is 60 mph so you don't lose that much time by stopping there.

The only real losers with the via Leeds route are the Edinburgh - Sheffield & Derby passengers. Newcastle & York passengers would use the Doncaster service like they do now.

The Service from the South West are the longest and if you force them to go via Leeds they will be less likely to use the direct service and so running a faster service from the South West no longer has a business case. The Reading to Newcastle service could go via Leeds to retain the link from Leeds to the North East.

 

[Failed Unit]

Anyone travelling from Newcastle or York for that matter who has chosen the train is unlikely to care about an extra 20 minutes of going via Leeds. If the were in a hurry they would be flying.

 

[Zoe]

If the were in a hurry they would be flying.

Isn't that exactly what we are trying to discourage? I think running via Leeds adds quite a time penalty.