Prosecution at Birmingham New Street

[smxira]

Hi I got given a notice for using 16-17 railcard more than once yesterday. She went through my phone Trainline history and found out I’ve been doing it more than once. Then went into my wallet to find my ID. I’ve learnt my lesson I will buy the proper tickets in the future. I’m willing to pay the fine or whatever happens but I’m just stressed and anxious waiting on hearing from what happens next.

Anyone can help me with what will happen next following that day? Just need some information on the process

Edit:

I ended up receiving my fine out of court which I am more than happy to pay. However some of the transactions I’m being charged for I believe are incorrect, they have added short journey fraud for actual adult tickets I’ve used. From Birmingham international/new street to Lea hall. My partner lives in Lea hall so I go there often. I don’t think I’ve ever used adult tickets to commit short journey fraud as that’s not in my intention the prices are the same without it and there are barriers where I’m from. I believe the wrong tickets I’ve only ever bought are using the wrong railcard.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Can you clarify, as using a 16-17 more than once isn't an offence. Do you mean you have been applying the 16-17 railcard to ticket purchases, when in fact you don't have one and this has happened multiple times?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi I got given a notice for using 16-17 railcard more than once yesterday. She went through my phone Trainline history and found out I’ve been doing it more than once. Then went into my wallet to find my ID. I’ve learnt my lesson I will buy the proper tickets in the future. I’m willing to pay the fine or whatever happens but I’m just stressed and anxious waiting on hearing from what happens next.

Anyone can help me with what will happen next following that day? Just need some information on the process

Welcome to the forum!

If you were given any paperwork, it would be really helpful if you could show it to us. Hide your name and personal details (you probably don't want the whole internet to see those) before posting it!

And where were you stopped? Was this on a train, or at the barriers, or somewhere else? I'm asking because different train companies handle things in different ways, so it will help to know who it is you are dealing with - and the location could tell us that.

But before you give us that, to give a very brief answer to your question - you won't be going to prison. You may have to pay quite a lot of money to the railway - or if they take you to court, then you may have to pay a fine which will be even more money - but while this will be expensive and embarrassing it won't ruin your life.

 

[smxira]

Welcome to the forum!

If you were given any paperwork, it would be really helpful if you could show it to us. Hide your name and personal details (you probably don't want the whole internet to see those) before posting it!

And where were you stopped? Was this on a train, or at the barriers, or somewhere else? I'm asking because different train companies handle things in different ways, so it will help to know who it is you are dealing with - and the location could tell us that.

But before you give us that, to give a very brief answer to your question - you won't be going to prison. You may have to pay quite a lot of money to the railway - or if they take you to court, then you may have to pay a fine which will be even more money - but while this will be expensive and embarrassing it won't ruin your life.

Hi thank you for your reply, I haven’t been given any paperwork yet this is the only thing handed to me and the revenue protection officer told me I’ll be hearing from the investigation team soon. I was stopped at the barriers

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2024 ==

Can you clarify, as using a 16-17 more than once isn't an offence. Do you mean you have been applying the 16-17 railcard to ticket purchases, when in fact you don't have one and this has happened multiple times?

Hi thank you for your reply. Yes, that is what I mean, I just wanted to know what would happen next

 

[30907]

You will get a letter from the investigators, which may be some weeks coming. It will no doubt threaten you with prosecution, but if you engage with them you will probably be able to settle without goihg to court.

When it arrives, feel free to come back, post a redacted copy and ask for advice
Meanwhile, look at posts by experienced member @Hadders

 

[Cuthbert]

Hi thank you for your reply, I haven’t been given any paperwork yet this is the only thing handed to me and the revenue protection officer told me I’ll be hearing from the investigation team soon. I was stopped at the barriers

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2024 ==


Hi thank you for your reply. Yes, that is what I mean, I just wanted to know what would happen next

They will send it to the Fraud team who will get access to your account and check your purchasing history.
Is this a one off? Or have you done it multiple times. They will threaten you with court but ask for an out of court settlement. The cost is normally a single standard for each trip you made with the rail card. If you bought a return this will be 2x single standard one for each direction. and around £175 admin fee I think WMR charge now.
You can go through your TrainLine account and work out the journeys you made knowing you had no rail card and calculate it up.

 

[josephhughes85]

How did she go through your phone?

 

[smxira]

How did she go through your phone?

She told me to show her ID which I didn’t have on me then told me to go on my Apple wallet on my phone then she went onto my trainline app after

 

[wqzu]

She told me to show her ID which I didn’t have on me then told me to go on my Apple wallet on my phone then she went onto my trainline app after

This won't help you much but it might help others - don't do this. They're not the police. If they ask you to go on to your phone, just say no.

 

[TheJester]

This won't help you much but it might help others - don't do this. They're not the police. If they ask you to go on to your phone, just say no.

But as the TOC‘s have access to trainline’s data surely that doesn’t really matter if they want to investigate the OP then the can easily do so?

 

[wqzu]

But as the TOC‘s have access to trainline’s data surely that doesn’t really matter if they want to investigate the OP then the can easily do so?

Plan A is to buy a ticket.

If Plan A fails, Plan B is not and never will be 'make it easier for them to prosecute me', even if you're blatantly guilty. If anyone other than police asks you for your phone or your ID, you say no. Let them go through CCTV and try to figure out which was your fraudulent purchase on Trainline amongst the - literally - hundreds of thousands of other tickets in Trainline's data.

Or avoid the stress and just buy a valid ticket.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

f Plan A fails, Plan B is not and never will be 'make it easier for them to prosecute me', even if you're blatantly guilty. If anyone other than police asks you for your phone or your ID, you say no. Let them go through CCTV and try to figure out which was your fraudulent purchase on Trainline amongst the - literally - hundreds of thousands of other tickets in Trainline's data

This has the risk of being an oversimplification. If a successful prosecution will need a confession, then 'no comment' (aka exercising your right not to self-incriminate) is the way to go.

But what the railways normally do is offer a chance to settle out of court which you can get if you co-operate. So there's an argument that co-operating is worthwhile if it will get you the lesser sanction.

 

[wqzu]

This has the risk of being an oversimplification. If a successful prosecution will need a confession, then 'no comment' (aka exercising your right not to self-incriminate) is the way to go.

But what the railways normally do is offer a chance to settle out of court which you can get if you co-operate. So there's an argument that co-operating is worthwhile if it will get you the lesser sanction.

What I'm about to say is not meant to be taken as a guide on how to get away with fraud - you're banking on a (relatively safe) gamble, but there is always a chance that it causes more problems.

Having spent time on this forum and as a delinquent youth, the majority of people that end up with these fines are kids that get scared into handing over their details, or people who have made genuine mistakes (i.e. an out of date rail card, wrong train for an advance, or whatever) and think that by co-operating they will be let off the hook, which never happens.

If you don't help them find you, chances are good that they won't. The cost effectiveness of chasing someone because they bought a £1.90 advance instead of a £3.00 anytime when you have nothing to go off of simply isn't worth it. The lost revenue is barely a rounding error on the books.

If you hand over your name, address, and contact details, their expense is simply the stamp to put on the letter. If you hand over nothing, they've got to go through hours of CCTV and tens of gigabytes of data, pay someone to do that, and then pay someone to show up to court when you contest it. Unless you've robbed them blind and travelled first class from Inverness to Dorset for the last 6 years without a valid ticket, they're (probably) not going to do that.

If the police order you to give them your details, and you've confirmed that you are being held, then do it. But if a rail inspector asks for them, just say no.

 

[Haywain]

What I'm about to say is not meant to be taken as a guide on how to get away with fraud - you're banking on a (relatively safe) gamble, but there is always a chance that it causes more problems.

Having spent time on this forum and as a delinquent youth, the majority of people that end up with these fines are kids that get scared into handing over their details, or people who have made genuine mistakes (i.e. an out of date rail card, wrong train for an advance, or whatever) and think that by co-operating they will be let off the hook, which never happens.

If you don't help them find you, chances are good that they won't. The cost effectiveness of chasing someone because they bought a £1.90 advance instead of a £3.00 anytime when you have nothing to go off of simply isn't worth it. The lost revenue is barely a rounding error on the books.

If you hand over your name, address, and contact details, their expense is simply the stamp to put on the letter. If you hand over nothing, they've got to go through hours of CCTV and tens of gigabytes of data, pay someone to do that, and then pay someone to show up to court when you contest it. Unless you've robbed them blind and travelled first class from Inverness to Dorset for the last 6 years without a valid ticket, they're (probably) not going to do that.

If the police order you to give them your details, and you've confirmed that you are being held, then do it. But if a rail inspector asks for them, just say no.

Failing to give your details simply adds another criminal offence for which you can be prosecuted.

 

[wqzu]

Failing to give your details simply adds another criminal offence for which you can be prosecuted.

Which is why you should give them to the police.

 

[pedr]

Which is why you should give them to the police.

The Railway Byelaws make it a crime to fail to provide name and address to a railway worker who suspects you of committing a crime under the Byelaws. The Regulation of Railways Act creates a similar crime to support investigation of its offences and to ensure that railway companies can contact people who haven't paid their fare.

The situation of someone travelling on the railway is different from someone encountering 'officialdom' elsewhere, due to the specific provisions of railway law.

 

[AlterEgo]

Which is why you should give them to the police.

No, you should give them to the staff who are authorised in law to demand them. Not doing so is a separate offence. Once the police get involved too, your chances of securing any sort of settlement diminish very quickly. Going “no comment” is very often in one’s interests but it is never in one’s interest to commit a further offence. You must give your name and address when asked by staff who reasonably suspect you of breaking the law.

 

[Egg Centric]

If you hand over your name, address, and contact details, their expense is simply the stamp to put on the letter. If you hand over nothing, they've got to go through hours of CCTV and tens of gigabytes of data, pay someone to do that, and then pay someone to show up to court when you contest it. Unless you've robbed them blind and travelled first class from Inverness to Dorset for the last 6 years without a valid ticket, they're (probably) not going to do that.

Bear in mind that if you've handed over an e-ticket for scanning, you have done this (with extra steps).

 

[smxira]

This won't help you much but it might help others - don't do this. They're not the police. If they ask you to go on to your phone, just say no.

I didn’t want to but she intimidated me into doing it she told me to open my phone when she saw it in my hand then went through it I asked her is this legal she said I’m legally doing this with permission it’s on camera but I never gave her permission. She threatened to just take me to the police who were on standby if I didn’t show any ID so I just let her.

 

[AlterEgo]

I didn’t want to but she intimidated me into doing it she told me to open my phone when she saw it in my hand then went through it I asked her is this legal she said I’m legally doing this with permission it’s on camera but I never gave her permission.

Well you did, by opening your phone. Too late to worry about this now anyway, as they can look at the transactions by auditing them.

 

[smxira]

But is she allowed to threaten me with police if I don’t show her? I have no issue with it I just felt uncomfortable with the process it didn’t really feel right

 

[AlterEgo]

But is she allowed to threaten me with police if I don’t show her? I have no issue with it I just felt uncomfortable with the process it didn’t really feel right

If the inspector has any reason not to be satisfied they have been given the correct name and address, then they could involve the police. Hard for anyone to say here really, as none of us were there.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But is she allowed to threaten me with police if I don’t show her? I have no issue with it I just felt uncomfortable with the process it didn’t really feel right

The thing is, the rules on the railway are actually laws. And broadly speaking if you break the law then the police can get involved. So if you break the law on the railway by refusing to give your name and address, then the inspector can call the police.

 

[smxira]

The thing is I didn’t refuse to give my name and address she just thought I was lying when I gave her it so she wanted ID for proof. But yeah I understand I am in the wrong no matter the outcome anyway

 

[Hadders]

What happens next is West Midlands Trains will writwe to you, saying that they have receive a report and are considering prosecuting. The letter will ask you to give any mitigating factors you want them to take into consideration before they decide how to proceed. I suggest a short, concise reply mentioning the following:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

WMT will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. Expect to have to pay the cost of all the times you've travelled with invalid tickets at the full Anytime rate (with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase) plus an admin fee, typically £175. The settlement will need to be paid in full within a few days of it being offered.

Post a copt of your draft reply in this thread and forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[185]

This won't help you much but it might help others - don't do this. They're not the police. If they ask you to go on to your phone, just say no.

Correct, staff must not look through someone's phone, however - the Revenue Inspector may have been looking for a reason to not issue a penalty fare - ie, was it a one off, which it perhaps wasn't.

- By co-operating, this will probably be dealt with by a reasonable settlement.

- By not co-operating - this can end badly, often in the dock.

 

[Haywain]

staff must not look through someone's phone

They may not have specific authority to insist on doing so, but if they ask and the phone is handed over?

 

[island]

Correct, staff must not look through someone's phone

This is not an accurate statement.

 

[smxira]

I ended up receiving my fine out of court which I am more than happy to pay. However some of the transactions I’m being charged for I believe are incorrect, they have added short journey fraud for actual adult tickets I’ve used. From Birmingham international/new street to Lea hall. My partner lives in Lea hall so I go there often. I don’t think I’ve ever used adult tickets to commit short journey fraud as that’s not in my intention the prices are the same without it and there are barriers where I’m from. I believe the wrong tickets I’ve only ever bought are using the wrong railcard.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I ended up receiving my fine out of court which I am more than happy to pay. However some of the transactions I’m being charged for I believe are incorrect, they have added short journey fraud for actual adult tickets I’ve used. From Birmingham international/new street to Lea hall. My partner lives in Lea hall so I go there often. I don’t think I’ve ever used adult tickets to commit short journey fraud as that’s not in my intention the prices are the same without it and there are barriers where I’m from. I believe the wrong tickets I’ve only ever bought are using the wrong railcard.

Looking back on this thread, you were originally worried that you were going to be prosecuted. So to that extent getting a settlement out of court is a good result.

And that being the case, how much money are the railway asking for that you don't think that they are entitled to? If you start arguing over some journeys, it's certainly going to take you extra time and energy - and there's at least a risk that the railway will withdraw the settlement offer that they have made you and take you to court after all.

Before deciding to fight this point, work out if it make most sense just to pay up and make the whole problem go away!