Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[childwallblues]

Well, the information about the two former TfW 769s being supplied by Porterbrook at no cost to Northern came from two Porterbrook engineering managers in the presence of severalbly cost more to send them to Sims than give them to Northern. Northern managers. That meeting was about a month ago and I have no further updates as to progress. I do know that it was planned that the two sets were expected to be with Northern by sometime in December and that they plan to have 6 sets in traffic each day after their arrival.

Makes sense. It would probably cost more to send them to Sims than give them to Northern.

 

[Gricer99]

Seems like the only ones out today are 431, 442, 448, 456.

Not seen 424 for ages. Has it been scrapped?

 

[diligentdave]

Seems like the only ones out today are 431, 442, 448, 456.

Not seen 424 for ages. Has it been scrapped?

It's needed a lot of work doing on it recently. Currently planned for release on 16th December.

 

[nightflyian]

Thanks for the update on 424. Any news on the additional 2 769 units being supplied to Northern ?

 

[507020]

Thanks for the update on 424. Any news on the additional 2 769 units being supplied to Northern ?

Presumably still at Kilmarnock?

 

[380101]

Presumably still at Kilmarnock?

There's 2 ex TFW ones at Brodies now in what looks to be Northern base grey livery. They've been at Kilmarnock since late October/early November. No seats currently fitted, and they have been out on test runs daily for the last week or 2 coupled up to one of the ex GWR 769s that are in what looks to be ScotRail base blue livery.

 

[fgwrich]

There's 2 ex TFW ones at Brodies now in what looks to be Northern base grey livery. They've been at Kilmarnock since late October/early November. No seats currently fitted, and they have been out on test runs daily for the last week or 2 coupled up to one of the ex GWR 769s that are in what looks to be ScotRail base blue livery.

I believe the two ex TfW examples are destined for Varamis Rail. They, also being Diesel only, would be less useful for Northern than their ex GWR brothers which retain their AC capabilities.

 

[507020]

There's 2 ex TFW ones at Brodies now in what looks to be Northern base grey livery. They've been at Kilmarnock since late October/early November. No seats currently fitted, and they have been out on test runs daily for the last week or 2 coupled up to one of the ex GWR 769s that are in what looks to be ScotRail base blue livery.

769s ran test runs to Southport with no seats fitted. Presumably the GWR unit is for rescue purposes, because they are running under wires and the TfW units had their pantographs removed. That blue is ScotRail base blue, because it was spare paint lying around at Brodies and they couldn’t stay green. They haven’t been leased by ScotRail, although that is obviously Porterbrook’s intention.

I believe the two ex TfW examples are destined for Varamis Rail. They, also being Diesel only, would be less useful for Northern than their ex GWR brothers which retain their AC capabilities.

Varamis Rail won’t take 769s. They make big of their all electric fleet and Diesel capability isn’t part of their business model. The TfW units are no less AC capable than the Northern units, minus a pantograph, which would need replacing anyway because they have never carried the Brecknell Willis type.

The GWR units aren’t suitable for Northern because of all the additional work done to make them 3rd rail immunised in Diesel mode, which makes them too different from the units already at Northern. This wouldn’t be an issue if they were leased by another operator e.g. ScotRail.

 

[380101]

769s ran test runs to Southport with no seats fitted. Presumably the GWR unit is for rescue purposes, because they are running under wires and the TfW units had their pantographs removed. That blue is ScotRail base blue, because it was spare paint lying around at Brodies and they couldn’t stay green. They haven’t been leased by ScotRail, although that is obviously Porterbrook’s intention.

Aye, the ex GWR unit will be for rescue purposes, but not because they have a pantograph, as they are being tested on the G&SW between Kilmarnock and Dumfries which is not wired, but more likely because the ex GWR ones have already been extensively tested after improvement works by Brodie Engineering over the last 12months and are deemed more reliable.

They have done limited tests on the Ayr line, but mostly on the Kilmarnock-Dumfries route due to more path availability.

 

[diligentdave]

The 2 units at Brodies are destined (so I'm told) for Scotrail. The ex-GWR one I'm not sure where it's going but it's not Northern. The 2 for Northern are currently at Long Marston (421 & 452 if I remember rightly) and will (eventually) move to Crewe Electric for works to refit the pantographs and carry out a transformer oil change (along with other AC related tasks) before delivery to Northern to cover for units in the C6 program. Although that has to happen fairly soon because the C6 program on Northern units begins in January (at Brodies).

 

[Blindtraveler]

I had suspected all along that those two units would indeed end up with Scott rail

 

[GhostManDN91]

Interesting. What does the C6 program involve? I'm not sure if it's been posted on here.

The 2 units at Brodies are destined (so I'm told) for Scotrail. The ex-GWR one I'm not sure where it's going but it's not Northern. The 2 for Northern are currently at Long Marston (421 & 452 if I remember rightly) and will (eventually) move to Crewe Electric for works to refit the pantographs and carry out a transformer oil change (along with other AC related tasks) before delivery to Northern to cover for units in the C6 program. Although that has to happen fairly soon because the C6 program on Northern units begins in January (at Brodies).

 

[nightflyian]

Many thanks for the updates. Interesting reading. I assuming the reason for removing the 3rd rail power is because they can potentially use platform 3 at Southport which is primary used by Merseyrail for Liverpool bound trains and is 3rd rail enabled but is occasionally used by Northern for Wigan bound trains ?

 

[D365]

Many thanks for the updates. Interesting reading. I assuming the reason for removing the 3rd rail power is because they can potentially use platform 3 at Southport which is primary used by Merseyrail for Liverpool bound trains and is 3rd rail enabled but is occasionally used by Northern for Wigan bound trains ?

Which units are having third rail pickup removed?

 

[507020]

Aye, the ex GWR unit will be for rescue purposes, but not because they have a pantograph, as they are being tested on the G&SW between Kilmarnock and Dumfries which is not wired, but more likely because the ex GWR ones have already been extensively tested after improvement works by Brodie Engineering over the last 12months and are deemed more reliable.

They have done limited tests on the Ayr line, but mostly on the Kilmarnock-Dumfries route due to more path availability.

There are also wires north of Barrhead.

Apparently the GWR units have been tested in both modes on all of the G&SWR lines. It tends to be useful to run under the wires, so to solve any issues they can just raise the pantograph. It remains to be seen whether the TfW units at Kilmarnock, or the Northern units will receive the same improvements.

Many thanks for the updates. Interesting reading. I assuming the reason for removing the 3rd rail power is because they can potentially use platform 3 at Southport which is primary used by Merseyrail for Liverpool bound trains and is 3rd rail enabled but is occasionally used by Northern for Wigan bound trains ?

It’s nothing to do with that. All 319s had their 3rd rail shoes removed when they were returned to Porterbrook off lease by Thameslink, before any of them entered service with Northern and before the 769 conversion was devised. At that time they could not run to Southport and did not encounter any third rail.

The GWR 769s had additional work to reinstate DC equipment that the Northern and TfW units didn’t, because the line they were intended to run on, the North Downs line is a mixture of 3rd rail and unelectrified sections.

It would be nice on an integrated railway if the failed 769s that have been stranded at Southport for weeks at a time could have run back to Allerton the most direct route via Liverpool Central, under their own power using the 3rd rail, rather than having to wait to be dragged back to Springs Branch, although some have been able to be taken on the back of an in service train.

It seems to be standard to remove 3rd rail equipment from off lease fleets dual voltage that may be leased again outside the Southern Region. The same was done with 365s.

 

[43096]

It seems to be standard to remove 3rd rail equipment from off lease fleets dual voltage that may be leased again outside the Southern Region. The same was done with 365s.

Yes, because if you don't the shoes tend to get removed anyway as the permanent way (ballast shoulders etc) aren't maintained to be clear of where a third rail shoe would be.

 

[D365]

There are also wires north of Barrhead.

Apparently the GWR units have been tested in both modes on all of the G&SWR lines. It tends to be useful to run under the wires, so to solve any issues they can just raise the pantograph. It remains to be seen whether the TfW units at Kilmarnock, or the Northern units will receive the same improvements.

It’s nothing to do with that. All 319s had their 3rd rail shoes removed when they were returned to Porterbrook off lease by Thameslink, before any of them entered service with Northern and before the 769 conversion was devised. At that time they could not run to Southport and did not encounter any third rail.

The GWR 769s had additional work to reinstate DC equipment that the Northern and TfW units didn’t, because the line they were intended to run on, the North Downs line is a mixture of 3rd rail and unelectrified sections.

It would be nice on an integrated railway if the failed 769s that have been stranded at Southport for weeks at a time could have run back to Allerton the most direct route via Liverpool Central, under their own power using the 3rd rail, rather than having to wait to be dragged back to Springs Branch, although some have been able to be taken on the back of an in service train.

It seems to be standard to remove 3rd rail equipment from off lease fleets dual voltage that may be leased again outside the Southern Region. The same was done with 365s.

I don’t know what your comment about ”integrated railway” means.

As has been pointed out several times, the 769/9s have some significant technical differences to the ’original’ Northern 769s. I’m not aware of any intention to convert any further units to 769/9 spec.

 

[nightflyian]

Thanks for the info on the removal of the 3rd rail power systems. And agree it would be nice if they could of run via the Liverpool line on the3rd rail for maintenance reasons as well as when the Wigan to Southport line is blokced or flooded like the other week.

 

[Nym]

As D365 has said several times now, it is not a simple job to even only add the 3rd rail capability "back" to a 769, let alone complete the full suite of work to create a 769/9.

The wiring just simply isn't there to do it, so a lot more cables and big switches need to be added to make them into a 'tri-mode' unit.

 

[Bob Price]

5Q42 headed today from Long Maston to Crewe Electric Traction Maintenance Depot. 37884 towing ex TfW 769421. Interesting.

 

[Geeves]

5Q42 headed today from Long Maston to Crewe Electric Traction Maintenance Depot. 37884 towing ex TfW 769421. Interesting.

Keep an eye out for something coming south from Kilmarnock as presumably they have finished fettling 769006 and this is the second one to go have some love and care before it gets going with Northern.

 

[david l]

The cavalry are certainly needed as there are 0 (none, nothing, zilch, nowt, f*all) 769's in Northern service today of the 6 diagrams, with loads of (diesel 15X) short forms on Southports today. In the past diesel replacements have been mainly 4 car, with some 2's, but nearly all appear to be 2's today.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The cavalry are certainly needed as there are 0 (none, nothing, zilch, nowt, f*all) 769's in Northern service today of the 6 diagrams, with loads of (diesel 15X) short forms on Southports today. In the past diesel replacements have been mainly 4 car, with some 2's, but nearly all appear to be 2's today.

Yet Journey check is saying 0 train formation updates!

 

[david l]

Yet Journey check is saying 0 train formation updates!

Don't believe everything you read on Journey check. Mark 1 eyeballs (and RTT) tend to be better bets................

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The cavalry are certainly needed as there are 0 (none, nothing, zilch, nowt, f*all) 769's in Northern service today of the 6 diagrams, with loads of (diesel 15X) short forms on Southports today. In the past diesel replacements have been mainly 4 car, with some 2's, but nearly all appear to be 2's today.

The sooner the MK3 bodied stock replacements are ordered the better.

 

[childwallblues]

According to RTT 769424/442/448 are in service today.

 

[Gricer99]

Not seen 424 for a long time

 

[Class777]

769424 is out today, Southport - Stalybridge which is nice to see. It’s one I still need to tick off.

Does anyone know yet what is happening to 421? I’ve heard going to Northern for extra capacity but I’m unsure as it’s platform wibble.

 

[50002Superb]

769424 is out today, Southport - Stalybridge which is nice to see. It’s one I still need to tick off.

Does anyone know yet what is happening to 421? I’ve heard going to Northern for extra capacity but I’m unsure as it’s platform wibble.

Read six posts above

 

[3RDGEN]

769424 is out today, Southport - Stalybridge which is nice to see. It’s one I still need to tick off.

Does anyone know yet what is happening to 421? I’ve heard going to Northern for extra capacity but I’m unsure as it’s platform wibble.

Post #6940 above indicates Northern are gaining two extra 769's but only as cover for C6 work on their existing units, so not extra capacity as such.