Valid ticket obtained but unable to show

[worried parent]

Hi, I'm hoping you can all help me.

My 17-year-old daughter bought a valid return ticket. She got off the train on the return, but was unable to find it.

She assures me the staff told her that as long as she could prove she bought the ticket if she would be able to get her fine cancelled. She got into a panic as she is neurodivergent , her phone and no battery, and she spent the next 3 hours in a blind panic despite having money and a bus pass and speaking to the police ( I have proof of this) as she didn't know how to get home.

She eventually found her ticket and managed to get home at 9pm ( this all happened around 5pm). I have appealed with a copy of the ticket and screenshot of the bank account. The reply asked for medical proof , whilst not specified what medical proof they required. I sent a professional's report stating she has slow processing speeds amongst other issues. I also included proof of the fact she had spoken to a police officer very upset as she couldn't get home and her phone wasn't working.

However, within less than 2 hours the answer came back that it was rejected as "The medical evidence provided states opposing information to what was given in the appeal"

I appreciate the fine is for not showing a ticket, however I have a number of issues... firstly should a 17-year-old be detained and issued with this without speaking to a parent. Also, she was given incorrect information so went along with it. If they had taken their time with her, called me or allowed her time to go through her one small bag and pockets, she would've found the ticket. I'm also unsure why it was rejected for that reason, as I have provided proof of her neurodivergence.

I am appealing again but would be grateful for any advice around this. My daughter is not currently working as her part-time employment was flooded and even then earns no more than a £1000 for the year. Would that be taken into account if we decide to go to court?

It just feels very unfair for a first offence, to add insult to injury she never even used the first part of her ticket as the train was cancelled so not only did I pay the train fare but also had to pay for fuel to take her to work and now possibly haven't to pay a fine as she had no income.

For info this was New Street in Birmingham at the barrier.

 

[Titfield]

Please can you post any paperwork received with any personal details and reference numbers obscured? Thank you.

 

[worried parent]

I think this shows everything you need. Tbh it's in such a state as my daughters bag is as disorganised as her head... one other fault on there was they said she had come from her local station ( I've blanked out the station) but she hadn't and says she explained this was a return from there to birmingham international and this was her return journey. Both tickets were uploaded on the appeal system for clarity

 

[Snow1964]

You need to appeal by 21st day, which it says is 15th (Sunday).
Therefore need to lodge appeal by email, not post as wouldn't get there in time.

Others will advise further on what to appeal on, but keep watching this thread so you can appeal ideally by tomorrow evening, don't miss the deadline as causes problems.

EDIT just spotted you did contact them, but evidence was rejected. Not sure if sending info counts as a formal appeal.

 

[30907]

Thanks for posting the Penalty Fare notice.

A PF (£55.50 in this case) covers carelessness and mistakes as well as deliberate actions, and unfortunately there's no obvious way for inspectors to tell the difference.

First of all, this will not end in a court case, especially if you have formally appealed

I would hope the PF would be cancelled on proof of the ticket's existence. If not, appealing again on the ground that it was incorrectly issued should (eventually) succeed.

 

[WesternLancer]

It might be of use for the OP to know that is worried about Appeal and deadlines etc - the penalty fare could be paid (in order to secure the 50% discount for prompt payment) and this would then be refunded if the Appeal was upheld I believe.
For obvious reasons you do not want to miss any deadlines and pay £100 when is can be paid for £50 penalty fare.

That having been said a validly submitted appeal 'stops the clock' on the payment deadline.

Keep all acknowledgments of Appeals being submitted (via the Appeal system, not for example an e-mail to customer services as they don't deal with this), and keep copies of the wording used in the Appeal.

 

[worried parent]

Thank you all. Yes we have formally appealed within the time frame online and now have a further 14 days from today to appeal again as they rejected our apppeal. We have done everything properly and still within timelines for reduced fee.

I appreciate the fine is for not producing a valid ticket which she didn't do and the initial appeal is obviously supporting that decision. When you mention appealing as it was issued incorrectly would that be because of their procedures or because she had the valid ticket.
Surely it would end up in court of we choose not to pay the fine?

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely it would end up in court of we choose not to pay the fine?

Not in the criminal court, no. It's not a fine; it's a Penalty Fare.

Between which two stations was your daughter's ticket valid? You mention her journey was not from Birmingham International, and that has been wrongly recorded. What was her journey?

 

[worried parent]

She bought a return ticket from our local station in Birmingham to Birmingham International ( 2 trains in total via Birmingham New Street where I believe she had to go through the barrier due to the platforms) . This was return back in the evening from International and she got off at New Street.
They have put on the ticket she had travelled from our local station to international so the wrong way round. As it was she had open tickets and couldn't find either but factually the info was wrong which she did tell them.

 

[John Palmer]

The amount of the penalty fare charged appears to me to be incorrect.

Regulation 9 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 as amended (full text here) sets out the way in which a penalty fare is to be calculated. In England the correct amount to be charged is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable (Regulation 9(1A)).

So, what is 'the full single fare applicable' in this case? It's defined in Regulation 9(2A) of the Penalty Fares regulations: 'In paragraph (1A), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).' Since the OP's daughter had boarded a train at Birmingham International and had just left that train at Birmingham New Street when charged the penalty fare, the fare that should have been charged was £100 plus a single fare from Birmingham International to Birmingham New Street, which appears to be £4.80.

I note from the uploaded penalty fare notice that the 'single fare applicable' is stated to be £5.50, i.e. apparently £0.70 greater than the applicable fare as defined by Regulation 9(2A). If that is correct then the incorrect amount of the penalty fare is a fatal defect, and an appeal based upon the fact that the wrong fare was charged should succeed. Regulation 16(3) of the Penalty Fares regulations sets out the grounds on which a penalty fare can be appealed, and ground (a) is in the following terms: 'the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations.' Regulation 16(7) goes on to provide that 'If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in paragraph (3) applies, it must ... allow the appeal.' So, provided the OP's daughter is able to convince the appeal panel that the full single fare applicable was £4.80 (International to New Street) rather than the £5.50 actually charged, that panel is required by the Regulations to allow the appeal.

An appeal on this basis does not rely upon convincing the appeal panel that possession of a ticket coupled with evidence of the neurodivergence constitute 'compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare' (appeal ground (d) in Regulation 16(3)). Instead, showing that the wrong fare was charged suffices to show that the penalty fare was not “charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations” and places a positive obligation on the panel to uphold the appeal. Any further appeal against the penalty fare should state that it was not charged in accordance with the Regulations because an incorrect full single fare was applied, and quote ground (a) in Regulation 16(3) as one of the grounds of appeal.

I suspect that the wrong fare may have been charged because the collector concerned failed to appreciate that the OP's daughter was on her return journey from Birmingham International, and treated the applicable single fare as being instead that from the OP's daughter's home station to New Street; perhaps the OP can confirm whether that is the case.

 

[30907]

Not in the criminal court, no. It's not a fine; it's a Penalty Fare.

Theoretically they could pursue you in the civil courts for the £55, but that's pretty unlikely

She bought a return ticket from our local station in Birmingham to Birmingham International ( 2 trains in total via Birmingham New Street where I believe she had to go through the barrier due to the platforms)

Purely for future reference, it is possible to change platforms at New St without going through barriers, using the stairs (etc) at the Wolverhampton/University end of the station. Might be worth walking it with your daughter?

 

[John Palmer]

Adding to what I previously posted, the fare element of £5.50 appearing on the PFN may well be the applicable single fare for the journey entered on that notice - presumably a journey to New Street from the OP's daughter's home station, rather than the return journey from International on which she was actually engaged. So, for an appeal to succeed on the 'wrong fare' basis, it will also be necessary for the daughter to convince the panel that she was on her return journey from International rather than the outbound journey from her home station. Is there additional evidence that can be produced to demonstrate that this was the case?

 

[worried parent]

Ohhh I like your thinking. Yes she was definitely on the way home and at that point was only planning on travelling to new street even though she had a ticket to the local station. There are 2 trains around then I suspect she was on the £4.80 one, the other is cheaper.
Shall I put everything in the appeal including what I have already said but starting with this point? I'm tempted to also add the fact that they haven't been supportive of a child's additional needs and ask for some form of evidence in what they said to her. She has got it from somewhere that they told her not worry as it will be quashed if she forwards evidence.
Thank you all for your help. If the only way this gets thrown out is via a technicality then I'll take that... just seems really harsh not to accept she had paid

 

[Cuthbert]

Ohhh I like your thinking. Yes she was definitely on the way home and at that point was only planning on travelling to new street even though she had a ticket to the local station. There are 2 trains around then I suspect she was on the £4.80 one, the other is cheaper.
Shall I put everything in the appeal including what I have already said but starting with this point? I'm tempted to also add the fact that they haven't been supportive of a child's additional needs and ask for some form of evidence in what they said to her. She has got it from somewhere that they told her not worry as it will be quashed if she forwards evidence.
Thank you all for your help. If the only way this gets thrown out is via a technicality then I'll take that... just seems really harsh not to accept she had paid

They wrote the PF from her home station to BHI which is also incorrect. That has the price of £5.50. You need to redact the full part of the start location.

Regarding the "She Paid" she has to show a valid ticket on inspection. Might be harsh but the amount of people that do not have a ticket is huge.

 

[worried parent]

She was working at the nec that day and has submitted an invoice to the employer and been paid. Not sure if it says hours but she bought the return ticket at our local train station at about 7.30am which would suggest she travelled from home then. They can check cctv to see where she came from and also it should match the time of arrival rather than the local train. Depends how picky they are being but on the balance of probability it certainly would show that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2024 ==

They wrote the PF from her home station to BHI which is also incorrect. That has the price of £5.50. You need to redact the full part of the start location.

Regarding the "She Paid" she has to show a valid ticket on inspection. Might be harsh but the amount of people that do not have a ticket is huge.

Our home station to Birmingham International is £5.50 and £3.50 to Birmingham New Street. So you are right it is wrong anyway, thank you
She paid £7.70 in total for the full fare.
I appreciate the fine is for not showing thr valid ticket which is why i came on here to check. I know a little about criminal law and how offences work but not a lot about penalty tickets. I just don't feel it was explained properly to her and not overly happy with an upset child not being given time and support over it. If it was criminal it would've been explained properly with an adult present.

 

[Pushpit]

I appreciate the fine is for not showing thr valid ticket which is why i came on here to check. I know a little about criminal law and how offences work but not a lot about penalty tickets. I just don't feel it was explained properly to her and not overly happy with an upset child not being given time and support over it. If it was criminal it would've been explained properly with an adult present.

The penalty fare, not fine, if appealed, cannot end up in the criminal system. And is unlikely to do so if not appealed. I would like to think that had she been interviewed under caution - so heading towards a criminal prosecution - that the safeguards you mention would be in place, but given a number of other 17 year olds stories in this forum I actually think it's unlikely, at least in the first instance. But fortunately she (and you) can eliminate that outcome here, a criminal prosecution will not happen in this circumstance. There's a "however" below. I can imagine you are somewhere between upset and furious but it's only money and this will blow over more quickly than some other rail ticket challenges.

However keep on with the appeal system, hopefully the third appeal will be looked at more sympathetically. Slow processing speed (SPS) and neurodivergency are two different conditions so it may be worth working this through for the third appeal in terms of the paperwork and arguments provided. The distinct impression I get is that unless there is a humdinger of a mistake, the first and second appeals are rarely successful. The minor price difference mentioned upthread seems close to a humdinger. Which is an illustration about how stupid this system is.

Given your daughter's circumstances, not least the fact that she will very soon be an adult, I would think this case through a bit to see how to avoid a repetition. I get the impression this was deeply upsetting for her and for you, and yet it's terribly important that she has her independence and freedom to work, socialise, travel without anxiety. I am also concerned that while this cannot be a criminal matter, unfortunately a minor staffing change, invisible to passengers, could have meant this incident could have ended up, at least briefly in the criminal prosecution route.

So I'm thinking here of mobile telephones with extra long battery life (the best phones last 4 times longer than the most fashionable), battery packs, emergency debit card, a "to whom it may concern" letter, a "mum's guide to what to do next" carried at all times, working how to process one issue at a time rather than getting overloaded. Doubtless you will also have considered these factors already, and I wish you well with this endeavour. Good things can come out of bad.

 

[worried parent]

Thank you so much for your considered and thoughtful reply. We have gone down the whole route of next time and had done before.. without going into too much personal detail this was just the start of a very difficult evening which I feel could've been avoided from both sides. She now knows what to do... whether she follows it is another matter. You would think with a bank card, bus pass, phone and train ticket and speaking to the police would have all been enough.. obviously not. I agree a lesson learnt... I hope anyway!
The slow processing speed isn't the main neurodiverse issue but I forwarded them a quite personal report with a number of things on there as they seem to imply that this was a defence and then dismissed it so not sure exactly what they want.
I will keep pushing it and give lots more information this time. There is no way we will ignore the fine and final process but just don't want to start a process we will loose.

 

[worried parent]

Just to update you all. I received notification today that my appeal was successful. It didn't say why but I had raised all the points from on here. Thank you all for your help.

 

[Pushpit]

I am so pleased to read that. Thanks for coming back. We will never know the reason for the appeal's success, but frankly the Penalty Fare was defective. The system is so complicated that it's not unusual for train staff to just get it wrong.

 

[furlong]

Just to update you all. I received notification today that my appeal was successful. It didn't say why but I had raised all the points from on here. Thank you all for your help.

Then you might want to respond, reminding it of contents of the relevant regulations, and asking for two things:
1) The reasons the appeal was upheld.
2) An explanation as to why no reasons were supplied with the original decision.

The regulations state that it must supply the reasons for its decision.

(If it is routinely not supplying the reasons for its decisions then it might be argued that the Appeals Panel is not one compliant with the regulations and as such the company cannot issue any penalty fares and would have to refund everyone else's issued during the time it was not compliant! This is not a trivial matter.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

We will never know the reason for the appeal's success

We would if the OP's daughter asked and told us the answer. The appeals body is required to tell them its reasons and should have done this without needing prompting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

Basically if it doesn't give its reasons, how is the train company ever going to receive the necessary feedback about anything it might have done wrong and might need to improve in future to avoid future appeals being lost in a similar way?

 

[Hadders]

Although it would be good to know the reason the appeal was successful, I very much doubt that @worried parent will want to engage any further with WMT given that they obtained a favourable outcome.

 

[LAX54]

I am so pleased to read that. Thanks for coming back. We will never know the reason for the appeal's success, but frankly the Penalty Fare was defective. The system is so complicated that it's not unusual for train staff to just get it wrong.

Do you think some staff get it 'wrong' on purpose, knowing that when its goes to appeal it will get withdrawn.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you think some staff get it 'wrong' on purpose, knowing that when its goes to appeal it will get withdrawn.

When? Most passengers won't be aware the fare charged is wrong. It is a complicated process with many hoops for the staff to jump through.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Glad your appeal was successful. The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) are currently conducting a review of how Train Operating Companies (ToCs) have been handling situations such as your daughters. Submissions for passenger feedback are open until January 17th so you may wish to share your experience with them:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-consu...w-train-operators-revenue-protection-policies

 

[LAX54]

When? Most passengers won't be aware the fare charged is wrong. It is a complicated process with many hoops for the staff to jump through.

What was going through my mind was, they person knew it was genuine for whatever reason, and knows the penalty fare was a bit 'strong', just makes an error in the paperwork, and makes it null and void, but that is probably me being a bit soft !

 

[SCDR_WMR]

What was going through my mind was, they person knew it was genuine for whatever reason, and knows the penalty fare was a bit 'strong', just makes an error in the paperwork, and makes it null and void, but that is probably me being a bit soft !

I would imagine they would be putting their job on the line if they were caught deliberately putting errors into a formal document such as this or MG11s.

 

[AlterEgo]

What was going through my mind was, they person knew it was genuine for whatever reason, and knows the penalty fare was a bit 'strong', just makes an error in the paperwork, and makes it null and void, but that is probably me being a bit soft !

But the passenger has to appeal specifically on that basis and know there has been a technical error. Most haven’t a clue. The error here wasn’t even spotted until the tenth post.

 

[KirkstallOne]

To mangle a maxim, never attribute to benevolence what can adequately be explained by incompetence.