Northumberland Line fares (including impact on Tyne & Wear Metro maximum fares)

[consettman]

What I've never been able to understand is why I can buy a through ticket from my local station, Hexham, to any T&W Metro station (and at a very favourable price indeed) - but only from the ticket office window, or (IIRC) a platform TVM. No online site allows that, not even National Rail, which doesn't appear to recognise Metro stations or zones at all, just as Metro machines don't recognise NR-only stations. I wonder if the TVMs on Ashington station will sell a through ticket to the Airport?
It sometimes seems to surprise Metro gate staff if you show them an orange credit-card ticket (which won't open Metro gates) - it's presumably not very common.

 

[mad_rich]

Which ticket is that @consettman ?

I occasionally look for inclusive fares to London including Metro, to see if anything interesting turns up. It never does, but LNER do sell them online.

Metro T&W All Zn
Metro T&W Zone A
APN (Airport)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2024 ==

It sometimes seems to surprise Metro gate staff if you show them an orange credit-card ticket (which won't open Metro gates) - it's presumably not very common.

One day, I’m determined to try to use an Interrail ticket on the Metro between Newcastle and Heworth, just because I doubt anyone ever has!

I don’t even know 100% if it’s valid, but I know National Rail tickets are. I’m certain it would surprise the gate staff.

 

[londonbridge]

Thanks for that, what a confusing mess for the sake of it. The lack of Pop on Sunderland to Central is even more baffling.

That’s what I was asking earlier, whether you could use POP PAYG on Northern between Sunderland and Central, but from latest posts and the Twitter map it seems the answer is (still) no?

 

[Haywain]

That’s what I was asking earlier, whether you could use POP PAYG on Northern between Sunderland and Central, but from latest posts and the Twitter map it seems the answer is (still) no?

It seems quite clear to me that you can. The map in post #1230 shows the service, and indicates in the key that it is under the heading of Northern Rail services. Edited as incorrect - see post below.

It just mentions A-D on that, nothing about A-C which if they aren't allowed in the C zone makes things confusing as an understatement.

It's a shorthand way of typing A to D, or A, B, C, D.

 

[zwk500]

It seems quite clear to me that you can. The map in post #1230 shows the service, and indicates in the key that it is under the heading of Northern Rail services.

Whereas Post #1,231 Shows:

Which seems very clear that Pop Pay as You Go is NOT valid on Northern trains to Sunderland.

(image screenshotted from Map in post #1,231 showing table of ticket validity between Northern and Metro. Pop Pay as You Go, Pop Blue and Junior Blue are listed as valid between Central Station and Ashington and not valid between Central Station and Sunderland.)

FWIW, this goes against the first base of a multi-modal transit system - inter-availability. The ticketing rules should be the same between Metro and Northern on all services, and tbh the clear option here is to make all Metro tickets valid on Northern services where shown on the map within zones A through to D. Making Northern Tickets valid on the metro for the northern half is less necessary as the trains take a very different route to the Metro (although I'd also advocate for national rail tickets just being integrated into Metro Zonal tickets so you can buy a ticket from e.g. York to Zones A-C for the Airport or Zone A-B for the Rugby at Kingston Park.

 

[Haywain]

Which seems very clear that Pop Pay as You Go is NOT valid on Northern trains to Sunderland.

Fair comment - that's much clearer than the colour coding on the map.

 

[zwk500]

Fair comment - that's much clearer than the colour coding on the map.

I agree it's a total mess (it's also inconsistent, which is bad).

 

[Willie Bee]

No Gold card usage either (which seems odd when they've got it on Blaydon-Sunderland)

I thought the Gold card was only valid between Central & Sunderland .. if they are accepted to Blaydon, then I assume they are also accepted to The Metro Centre

 

[Anvil1984]

I thought the Gold card was only valid between Central & Sunderland .. if they are accepted to Blaydon, then I assume they are also accepted to The Metro Centre

You are correct. Metro Gold Card valid only Newcastle - Heworth - Sunderland on Northern by virtue of the general inter-availability of tickets on the route and hence why it’s not valid to Ashington.

For Newcastle - Blaydon inclusive there is a 50p concessionary fare for holders of Nexus ENCTS cards (no Gold Card Required) but not for any other local authorities

 

[Willie Bee]

For Newcastle - Blaydon inclusive there is a 50p concessionary fare for holders of Nexus ENCTS cards (no Gold Card Required) but not for any other local authorities

Thank you, I didn't know that.

How do you pay .. is it on the train or in the ticket office ?

 

[consettman]

@mad_rich it's what I get when I ask at the window for "a day return to Tynemouth" - outward and return portions to Metro Zones A+B+C. At £8-and-a-bit with a coffin-dodgers' railcard it's very good value given the £6 or so of the Metro element. Only available at the station, I'm told by the staff. I do wonder if the railcard discount is applied to the Metro portion - don't know much about these things, but it strikes me as unusual.

 

[Haywain]

@mad_rich it's what I get when I ask at the window for "a day return to Tynemouth" - outward and return portions to Metro Zones A+B+C. At £8-and-a-bit with a coffin-dodgers' railcard it's very good value given the £6 or so of the Metro element. Only available at the station, I'm told by the staff. I do wonder if the railcard discount is applied to the Metro portion - don't know much about these things, but it strikes me as unusual.

The add-on to the fare to Newcastle would be £4.30, but in this case a through fare is defined in the fares data that comes out a bit cheaper at £9.30 with a railcard discount.

 

[typefish]

I occasionally look for inclusive fares to London including Metro, to see if anything interesting turns up. It never does, but LNER do sell them online.

Metro T&W All Zn
Metro T&W Zone A
APN (Airport)

I tried looking for any T&W all-zone tickets to Ashington and they're not available. Bit of a shame really, but kinda expected given the push to use Pop.

 

[mad_rich]

On Pop, the single/ daily cap between Ashington and Central is £3.60/ £6.20.

Meanwhile, the off-peak day single is £2.60, and the Anytime is £3. So it's always cheaper to buy rail ticket, unless you're continuing somewhere on the Metro.

 

[A S Leib]

On Pop, the single/ daily cap between Ashington and Central is £3.60/ £6.20.

Meanwhile, the off-peak day single is £2.60, and the Anytime is £3. So it's always cheaper to buy rail ticket, unless you're continuing somewhere on the Metro.

For 21-year-olds and younger it will be cheaper to use Pop in most cases, as fares will be £1 (capped at £1.70 per day for under-16s / £2.20 for 16-21-year-olds).

 

[NorthOxonian]

On Pop, the single/ daily cap between Ashington and Central is £3.60/ £6.20.

Meanwhile, the off-peak day single is £2.60, and the Anytime is £3. So it's always cheaper to buy rail ticket, unless you're continuing somewhere on the Metro.

Or if you're making an unusual journey combination - for instance two return journeys in a day (not all that likely but definitely not beyond reason seeing as it's a relatively short journey).

 

[Pushpit]

Nexus has sent out a round-robin email today pointing out that adding the Northumberland Line (Newcastle to Ashington) to the ticketing, Pop card and Android ticketing systems will mean an increase in the Maximum Fare charged on the Metro.

From Sunday 15 December 2024 there will now be a Zone D, covering Ashington, Bedlington and Blyth Bebside, giving a 4 zone system instead of 3. The latter two stations won't be open from 15 December, but Ashington will be part of the network from opening the Line. This means the maximum fare rises:
From: £3.40
To: £3.80
And the maximum daily cap:
From: £5.00
To: £6.20.

The big relevance to this is that for the many travellers who travel three zones (e.g. Whitley Bay, Kingston Park, or Sunderland to Newcastle), they may not even be aware of the need to tap out, or the existence of a Maximum Fare, since up to now they would be correctly charged based on just tapping in to the system.

 

[Willie Bee]

Just received an email from Nexus, regarding changes ..

From Sunday 15 December, there’s a new Metro ticket zone – zone D. This new zone includes train stations on the new Northumberland Line (between Ashington and Central Station). If you have a Pop Pay As You Go card If you touch in at the start of your journey, but don’t touch out at the end to close your journey, you’re automatically charged the maximum fare. From Sunday 15 December, the maximum fares will increase to include Zone D. Maximum fare

Maximum fare Single Daily cap until 14 December £3.40 £5.00 from 15 December £3.80 £6.20

If you make 3 zone journeys, and sometimes don’t touch out, because you think we’ll deduct the correct fare anyway – this will no longer be the case. Make sure that you touch out at the end of your journey so that you pay the correct amount for the journey you have made. If you have a Metro Season Ticket Please note that if you currently buy an All Zone Metro Season Ticket from buyandapply.nexus.org.uk , it is now called a 3 Zone Metro Season Ticket – and you will need to select Zones A + B + C. A 4 Zone Metro Season Ticket will be available from 15 December, which will include Zones A + B + C + D. If you have a Junior Blue, Pop Blue or Pop 19-21 card From 15 December, your maximum fare will not change, and you will be able to travel on the new Northumberland Line. Make sure that you touch out at the end of your journey so that you pay the correct amount for the journey you have made.

 

[londonbridge]

Yes, got the same.

Thoughts on not adding Northern trains between Central and Sunderland into POP PAYG, I guess it may be to avoid people claiming that they don’t know where the PAYG area ends and complaining when/if they get a penalty fare for trying to tap out at Seaham, Horden or Hartlepool, in the same way that some people argue that it’s not always obvious where the boundaries of the Greater London contactless area are.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The big relevance to this is that for the many travellers who travel three zones (e.g. Whitley Bay, Kingston Park, or Sunderland to Newcastle), they may not even be aware of the need to tap out, or the existence of a Maximum Fare, since up to now they would be correctly charged based on just tapping in to the system.

They're supposed to touch out and they can't say they've not been warned!

I'm just glad that the Northumberland Line is included in the Metro fare structure.

As an aside, does anyone know how this will work at Newcastle Central? I'm a bit out of the loop but I thought the National Rail ticket barriers didn't recognise POP PAYG (when I lived there it was an issue using PAYG Newcastle-Sunderland for that reason)? Have they been updated?

 

[swt_passenger]

As an aside, does anyone know how this will work at Newcastle Central? I'm a bit out of the loop but I thought the National Rail ticket barriers didn't recognise POP PAYG (when I lived there it was an issue using PAYG Newcastle-Sunderland for that reason)? Have they been updated?

This has been covered at length in the infrastructure forum, and we’ve been assured by posts, from those who seem to know, that it is all being changed except for the Newcastle to Sunderland route.

 

[zwk500]

Thoughts on not adding Northern trains between Central and Sunderland into POP PAYG, I guess it may be to avoid people claiming that they don’t know where the PAYG area ends and complaining when/if they get a penalty fare for trying to tap out at Seaham, Horden or Hartlepool, in the same way that some people argue that it’s not always obvious where the boundaries of the Greater London contactless area are.

It should be as consistent as possible. People will always try and claim ignorance, but London seems to manage fine with Oyster out as far as Gatwick Airport so I would say that the argument of people trying it on or genuinely being confused is a relatively small problem to solve.

'PAYG is only valid within the Metro Zones area' is fairly simple to understand, reinforced with maps, signs and on-train announcements that 'PAYG is not valid beyond Sunderland on this service'.

 

[londonbridge]

Maybe, but you only have to look in disputes and prosecutions at the number of people being given penalties because they think contactless is valid to Stansted Airport. And given that Nexus made a point of stating that Northern services on the new line will be integrated into the PAYG system, it’s not consistent to continue to exclude another Northern line that falls within the PAYG area.

 

[zwk500]

Maybe, but you only have to look in disputes and prosecutions at the number of people being given penalties because they think contactless is valid to Stansted Airport. And given that Nexus made a point of stating that Northern services on the new line will be integrated into the PAYG system, it’s not consistent to continue to exclude another Northern line that falls within the PAYG area.

There will always be people who don't get it/try it on. I'm fundamentally in agreement with you - ticketing should be as consistent as possible, which means Newcastle-Sunderland via national rail (tbh for the sake of 2/3 trains a day you should include LNER as well) should be valid on PAYG as well. Having one line in and one line out doesn't make sense.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wonder whether the issue with Newcastle to Sunderland is LNER? It certainly used to be when LNER started running through to Sunderland, with LNER at one stage refusing to accept T&W Day Rovers, Explorer North East, etc.

Otherwise it makes no sense. You have readers at Sunderland and now at Central Station and, whilst IIRC Heworth NR doesn’t have readers, they won’t be hard to install there.

It seems a massive own goal to not include the line in the TNE tickets, too. Penalising people who take the bus to the station seems an odd choice.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Theres only one more LNER service to sunderland left to run so it's all a bit pointless now.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There seem to be no fares from London to Ashington except Anytime. No advance tickets, no off peak fares.

 

[DanNCL]

There seem to be no fares from London to Ashington except Anytime. No advance tickets, no off peak fares.

An off peak was never going to happen with LNER as the fare setter for that flow. No advances is a surprise though.

 

[norbitonflyer]

An off peak was never going to happen with LNER as the fare setter for that flow.

Doesn't follow: Off peak fares are available for other journeys via Newcastle: I've just just checked for Hexham and for Sunderland.

As far as I understood, affordable walk-on fares have not been abolished by LNER for journeys that have to be made, at least in part, by other operators.

 

[A S Leib]

I've just just checked for Hexham and for Sunderland.

But they're gone for Manors and MetroCentre; maybe based on distance, with Ashington being considered close enough to Newcastle due to being a terminus.