Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[swrfanatic]

Isn't something that i've been used to is all almost showing the door for the guards.

 

[Goldfish62]

Isn't something that i've been used to is all almost showing the door for the guards.

Can you elaborate, because I don't understand? Which door? On the train?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Can you elaborate, because I don't understand? Which door? On the train?

I haven't got a clue what he's trying to say either

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In a nutshell, it's a comment about previous proposals for DCO threatening the guard's jobs.
Can we please move on now as such posts are quite tiresome when causing watched thread alerts?

 

[fgwrich]

It’s not all down to Alstom; there’s a number of modifications required to make each unit ”fit for service”. Responsibility for each modification ’package’ is agreed between Alstom and SWR.

On top of that, we already know that the words 'build quality issues' and Derby seem to go hand in hand. This being on top of the somewhat odd approach of nearly completing a unit, sending it away to release space in Derby to complete more units, only to drag it back again at a later date for completion and final testing.

 

[brooklynbound]

I've now had the misfortune of sitting on a busy 701 twice. The seats are so tight that two people side by side is uncomfortable when one has a thick coat on. The facing seats in the 4 seat bays also seem nearer than on other modern units given the amount of knee touching going on.

 

[Goldfish62]

I've now had the misfortune of sitting on a busy 701 twice. The seats are so tight that two people side by side is uncomfortable when one has a thick coat on. The facing seats in the 4 seat bays also seem nearer than on other modern units given the amount of knee touching going on.

No different to the 700s and 707s. I agree that the facing bay seats are too close, but it's the same across all those units.

 

[DMckduck]

I've now had the misfortune of sitting on a busy 701 twice. The seats are so tight that two people side by side is uncomfortable when one has a thick coat on. The facing seats in the 4 seat bays also seem nearer than on other modern units given the amount of knee touching going on.

Unfortunately they are people movers, I've noticed they look much busier due to a lack of seating compared with other stock but can certainly fit more people on them.

 

[43066]

A poor & short sighted decision by those in charge, particularly as the time, money & effort invested in obtaining the agreements, hardware, training & additional staff flexibility all appear to have been wasted.

I’d suggest this particular decision (to change course) seems pragmatic and sensible, given what a debacle the whole introduction had become. I’m sure most SWR users will be pleased to just get these trains into service, regardless of method of operation.

It should have been abandoned at a much earlier stage once it was clear it wasn’t going to be possible to implement within a realistic time period. Throwing money away leasing brand new stock sitting idle in sidings was a scandalous waste of money, and I suspect will have exceeded the cost of training etc. (much of which will be required anyway upon a new fleet introduction, irrespective of DCO or guarded operation).

 

[Goldfish62]

I’d suggest this particular decision (to change course) seems pragmatic and sensible, given what a debacle the whole introduction had become. I’m sure most SWR users will be pleased to just get these trains into service, regardless of method of operation.

It should have been abandoned at a much earlier stage once it was clear it wasn’t going to be possible to implement within a realistic time period. Throwing money away leasing brand new stock sitting idle in sidings was a scandalous waste of money, and I suspect will have exceeded the cost of training etc. (much of which will be required anyway upon a new fleet introduction, irrespective of DCO or guarded operation).

As an SWR user I'm personally very happy that it looks like introduction is going to sped up. The need for the increased capacity that will be brought by these trains is getting critical. This no doubt had a significant influence on the decision.

 

[cactustwirly]

I've now had the misfortune of sitting on a busy 701 twice. The seats are so tight that two people side by side is uncomfortable when one has a thick coat on. The facing seats in the 4 seat bays also seem nearer than on other modern units given the amount of knee touching going on.

Imagine sitting on it all the way to Bracknell or Wokingham

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Unfortunately they are people movers, I've noticed they look much busier due to a lack of seating compared with other stock but can certainly fit more people on them.

There are trade offs made for a more comfortable standing experience. For example, the larger than usual gap between the vestibule and where the seats start allows for significantly more standing room and less crush. If you’re on one in rush hour they feel a lot less crammed, as some others have commented on here and on youtube. However this comes with the downside of less room in the seats and window alignment. No more so than similar offerings like the Desiro City though, and personally I find the seats themselves a lot more comfortable too, so it’s still an upgrade from the comparable competition imo

 

[Peter Sarf]

On top of that, we already know that the words 'build quality issues' and Derby seem to go hand in hand. This being on top of the somewhat odd approach of nearly completing a unit, sending it away to release space in Derby to complete more units, only to drag it back again at a later date for completion and final testing.

It does seem that at various stages of the class 701 project unrealistic demands/expectations have been forced upon reality.

Building - My hunch is Bombardier management wanted units built at the fastest possible rate to fulfil unrealistic delivery schedules. So the only way to achieve that was to put any units that required post production fixes aside. These have then languished for months/years in sidings all over the country.

Implementation - It looks like SWR (and DfT) wanted these units in service with the minimum of preparation. So boring hurdles like stations OK for driver only operation, details of staff training and cabs approved by those using them have been ignored until too late. A case of aspiration triumphing over pragmatism.

The result is a huge fleet of new trains that have steadily got damp in sidings due to lack of use (before and after being usable) and so now presumably need more effort than normal to get into service.

A contrast on Greater Anglia where similar units of two different lengths (5 car and 10 car) were all standardised on one length late in the production process but before the ten coach units started to be constructed. If SWR had bitten the bullet early enough would the desire to have as short as possible cabs been avoided by following the same standardisation ?.

I will admit that for units that will spend most of their time running in pairs I regret there being no inter-unit gangway connection. More cab ergonomics battles anyone ?.

 

[deepeetw]

I've now had the misfortune of sitting on a busy 701 twice. The seats are so tight that two people side by side is uncomfortable when one has a thick coat on. The facing seats in the 4 seat bays also seem nearer than on other modern units given the amount of knee touching going on.

There’s definitely something about the seat profile that makes sitting side by side quite uncomfortable - it’s as though the backs aren’t quite wide enough so you spill onto the seat next door.

And yes - zero leg room if a bay has four in it.

 

[norbitonflyer]

And yes - zero leg room if a bay has four in it.

I don't get that - face-to-face passengers are sharing the same footspace - even four adult feet are not as wide as a seat

 

[WrongRoad]

So with 600 drivers left to do, all done by the end of next year. Which publicly-owned SWR will take credit for.

Doubt it, so many of the trained drivers are going out of competency as so few units to drive that many will need retraining.

 

[swtrains]

No different to the 700s and 707s. I agree that the facing bay seats are too close, but it's the same across all those units.

Nope, the 707s were fine.

As an SWR user I'm personally very happy that it looks like introduction is going to sped up. The need for the increased capacity that will be brought by these trains is getting critical. This no doubt had a significant influence on the decision.

**speed

 

[nctd2306]

Imagine sitting on it all the way to Bracknell or Wokingham

Some of us won't have to (imagine it)come this time next year

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Nope, the 707s were fine.

You’re correct. These 701s are seeming worse by the day!

 

[swtrains]

You’re correct. These 701s are seeming worse by the day!

You can clearly see there is more legroom with the Siemens, looks like the seats are a bit bigger too.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

You can clearly see there is more legroom with the Siemens, looks like the seats are a bit bigger too.

There’s definitely more legroom, although I can’t really agree with the seats being bigger as it’s the exact same frame just with different padding

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2024 ==

Here’s hoping these trains aren’t around very long, if they ever are around that is

 

[Carlisle]

It should have been abandoned at a much earlier stage once it was clear it wasn’t going to be possible to implement within a realistic time period. Throwing money away leasing brand new stock sitting idle in sidings was a scandalous waste of money,

Maybe your right or perhaps it was managed poorly by all parties in full knowledge the new government preoccupied with its major nationalisation plan were likely to pull the plug if things were tough, who knows?, we are where we are

 

[43066]

Maybe your right or perhaps it was managed poorly by all parties in full knowledge the new government preoccupied with its major nationalisation plan was willing to pull the plug if things were tough, who knows?, we are where we are

The problems go back well before the last election, though, and until then it wasn’t by any means certain that we would have a new government, or what form nationalisation would take (and indeed a fair bit is still unknown).

The TOC had agreed contract changes and obtained agreement on the method of working from both unions, with the fleet long since delivered, but it has been clear for a year or more that station sign off/issues with the stock were causing major problems. As you say, we are where we are, and we have been there for a very long time! Hence my view that the decision taken was the correct one, and should have been taken earlier.

 

[cactustwirly]

There’s definitely more legroom, although I can’t really agree with the seats being bigger as it’s the exact same frame just with different padding

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2024 ==

Here’s hoping these trains aren’t around very long, if they ever are around that is

There is a bigger gap between the seats which helps a lot

 

[Lockwood]

It sounds like the comments are also falling into the U Turn trap.

A decision is made.
It is not popular/it has problems.

You barrel away at it anyway, you are seen as arrogant/inflexible/out of touch/etc

You change plan after trying the first way, you are seen as indecisive/wasteful/etc

 

[I_am_Nobody]

It sounds like the comments are also falling into the U Turn trap.

A decision is made.
It is not popular/it has problems.

You barrel away at it anyway, you are seen as arrogant/inflexible/out of touch/etc

You change plan after trying the first way, you are seen as indecisive/wasteful/etc

Yeeeeeeah, the railway gets that a lot honestly.
Damned if it does, damned if it doesn't, damned if it does anything in between!

 

[43066]

It sounds like the comments are also falling into the U Turn trap.

A decision is made.
It is not popular/it has problems.

You barrel away at it anyway, you are seen as arrogant/inflexible/out of touch/etc

You change plan after trying the first way, you are seen as indecisive/wasteful/etc

That’s true of course but, with the delays as extensive as they are, the failure to change course earlier starts to feel a little ideological, with a generous of dollop of “it’s not our money, so who cares if we waste it”, mixed in.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The problems go back well before the last election, though,

or even the previous one................

 

[Carlisle]

That’s true of course but, with the delays as extensive as they are, the failure to change course earlier starts to feel a little ideological, with a generous of dollop of “it’s not our money, so who cares if we waste it”, mixed in.

True but haven’t those type of shenanigans long been a problem & have more to do with how the railways are funded, Regional Eurostar comes to mind in BR times

 

[Roger B]

or even the previous one................

Oh where, oh where is the 'like' button!